[Opinion] To Join or Not to Join

[Xenophon]

I ran across an article a while back by Stephen Flowers/Edred Thorsson arguing that the best way to progress in magick was in the embrace of a traditional order. (Sorry---forgot title.) Mostly I've been a solo act; latterly, I've started following the "strongly recommended" practices of an online group. Were I in a locale with physically present groups, I'd probably be trying that route. Mostly it's a disinclination to waste time reinventing the (training) wheel. What's anyone else's take on solo act vs. group? I suppose there are at least a few stops in between: single pupil & mentor; online group; small circle; widely-spread formal order.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Well, it depends first of all what path, where you want to go.

 

[Roma]

A group entity (gestalt) can accelerate progress - in the direction preferred by the group entity.

Not all group entities are honest in their relationships with humans

As far as l can tell all techniques exist within the aura of some entity. Using a technique commits to that source entity.

Working solo is often better, provided there is a suitable guardian/sponsor spirit to mind the back of the human and provide direction.

It usually takes years to be clear about which spirit is the sponsor.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Builders of the Adytum and Fraternity of the Hidden Light exist, The Hermetic Order (or Society) of the Golden Dawn still exists, Astrum Argentum still exists. Not sure about the OTO or ONA. The ODR (Order of the Dragon Rouge) still exists as far as I know. The first two mentioned operate first as correspondence by mail unless you live near the lodge but when all lessons are completed you can become an initiate through the lodge.
Quite frankly, I think Self Initiation is the way most do it, Quareia is one I would consider, most lessons are free for one thing and it's really well structured. I may pursue that or the A.A.

 

[Vandheer]

I can never see myself being in an order, and by order I mean the real deal not some half-a-dozen group coming together and calls themselves one.

There hasn't been a single book on magic I didn't eventually tailored to fit what I wanted, no way I could stay in an order without challenging the notion.

The only times I experienced peace are when I am totally alone or I have a magickal partner that also happens to be a lover, group work irritated me to no end.

Suppose I could be a narcisst, or just retarded maybe. Both would be good.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I agree. I had a LHP Magickal partner who we cursed a target that later got hit by a car. The only reason I didn't was she was a little bit of a newbie to Magick in some regards but she is a devotee to the LHP, and the target had been cursing her for years. Immediately after, I confessed and repented. It may not or may save me, I will only know by trying to become a living and compassionate person. Even then I will only know in the judgement hour.
We have to be self initiates until we find our path and place in life.

 

[Roma]

Even then I will only know in the judgement hour.

It seems there are at least two sorts of judgement hour:

- when you die and float up or down to be on the plane and subplane appropriate to your vibration

- when Earth humanity reaches a dividing of the way, when those too good or not good enough are moved to other planetary systems for their next incarnation/manifestation.

Apparently the baby boom of the 1950s and 1960s was largely from those keen to pass the grade before the judgement at the end of the 20th century - including those that died too early in WW2 and needed more time.

For myself, I only had 8 years between death and rebirth. I was a bit shitty: It's not my turn!

 

[Xenophon]

Builders of the Adytum and Fraternity of the Hidden Light exist, The Hermetic Order (or Society) of the Golden Dawn still exists, Astrum Argentum still exists. Not sure about the OTO or ONA. The ODR (Order of the Dragon Rouge) still exists as far as I know. The first two mentioned operate first as correspondence by mail unless you live near the lodge but when all lessons are completed you can become an initiate through the lodge.
Quite frankly, I think Self Initiation is the way most do it, Quareia is one I would consider, most lessons are free for one thing and it's really well structured. I may pursue that or the A.A.

Depending on tastes, there seem as many orders out there as toadstools springing up after a spring rain. (And many last about as long. Seriously, by the time some books find their way into print, the order they reference has split sundered and scattered.) Personally, I have less than no interest earning occult merit badges and working my way up some neo-Masonic hierarchy. But an order is a place I can bring questions and share attitudes. And, yes, occasionally come in for merited criticism.

 

[Roma]

as many orders out there as toadstools springing up after a spring rain. (And many last about as long

It is common that esoteric orders have trouble surviving the death of their founder.

This tells me that the founder was not able to teach enough to bring any follower to the level of the founder.

 

[8Lou1]

Always been a loner, but found that, real or fake, the killing of a moslem by mlo has been used often. i can play death very well so ive done that several times.

Strangely enough, i always get kicked out when i do that. Seems i have a safety instinct for groups: i just die.

Post automatically merged: Nov 19, 2023

btw, i found my place as a loner, by reading wf2.0, where it said: no you are not crazy, you are just learning and opening up to a new way. i dont have that as my motto, but it really does work. on wf 2.0 i hardly wrote and now 4.0 i lost my shame and neediness for a human teacher.

 

[Xenophon]

Always been a loner, but found that, real or fake, the killing of a moslem by mlo has been used often. i can play death very well so ive done that several times.

Strangely enough, i always get kicked out when i do that. Seems i have a safety instinct for groups: i just die.

Post automatically merged: Nov 19, 2023

btw, i found my place as a loner, by reading wf2.0, where it said: no you are not crazy, you are just learning and opening up to a new way. i dont have that as my motto, but it really does work. on wf 2.0 i hardly wrote and now 4.0 i lost my shame and neediness for a human teacher.

OK, I'm naive/ignorant/isolated/or plain ol' dumb. What is mlo? As in a moslem-killing mlo.

Post automatically merged: Nov 19, 2023

It is common that esoteric orders have trouble surviving the death of their founder.

This tells me that the founder was not able to teach enough to bring any follower to the level of the founder.

True. And a lot have trouble lasting till the founder even gets a gray beard. Sadly (from my vantage) an awful lot of right-wing esoteric groups seem to splinter over things like money. Who gets the proceeds of the book? Who really owns the printing press? One expects more of types what swagger and pontificate ponderously of honor.

 

[8Lou1]

mysanthropic luciferian order from finland. it is said the leader got killed during a ritual by invocation, which is true. it is also said they killed a moslem for a ritual. this i dont know if true.

 

[William66]

mysanthropic luciferian order from finland. it is said the leader got killed during a ritual by invocation, which is true. it is also said they killed a moslem for a ritual. this i dont know if true.

Yeah, where is the source for the first part you meantioned?

 

[8Lou1]

life experience as a psychopomp (someone who brings the newly deceased to their next place)

 

[Roma]

life experience as a psychopomp

My limited experience with the newly dead is that they went where they should without any apparent intervention from those still human

Are there particular sorts of human with which you deal?

 

[8Lou1]

i deal in the bigger players on earth. such as my mum in law, the queen of england, the expope, mlo leader hanging around for years. also some nasty other old kings and other evil doers, like big nazi's or just ya plane old abusers out of spite. i think the bigger players are nice, they know the way and often the little ones have more pains. when i find someone worthy, like my muminlaw im willing to help way more then when someone doesnt even understand what he or she has done. thats why it was choosen for me to live with family. they are a life long task of caring and guiding. im adjusting to 'they have left the building' so i can take up other things for my own evolution.

the One guiding me has the habit of throwing things in front of me, so i dont know if the next death will fall in the category i mentioned, but i know the roads and my intent is always from good to better, so who knows...

 

[Vandheer]

i deal in the bigger players on earth. such as my mum in law, the queen of england, the expope, mlo leader hanging around for years. also some nasty other old kings and other evil doers, like big nazi's or just ya plane old abusers out of spite.

Oh wow, what made such an ascended master grace this humble forum I wonder ?

 

[8Lou1]

i was waiting for such a replay, so nice of you to fulfil that request. and dont wonder, its just boredom, i was THAT bored that i decided to bore a dom. and the fact that wf is well known as meeting point for people all over the world who work not just true typing. where else would a a chick be, other then in the frontyard of a marketplace

 

[Xenophon]

i deal in the bigger players on earth. such as my mum in law, the queen of england, the expope, mlo leader hanging around for years. also some nasty other old kings and other evil doers, like big nazi's or just ya plane old abusers out of spite. i think the bigger players are nice, they know the way and often the little ones have more pains. when i find someone worthy, like my muminlaw im willing to help way more then when someone doesnt even understand what he or she has done. thats why it was choosen for me to live with family. they are a life long task of caring and guiding. im adjusting to 'they have left the building' so i can take up other things for my own evolution.

the One guiding me has the habit of throwing things in front of me, so i dont know if the next death will fall in the category i mentioned, but i know the roads and my intent is always from good to better, so who knows...

Gee, and I can barely get a Geist to polter for me. 'Taint fair.

Post automatically merged: Nov 19, 2023

My limited experience with the newly dead is that they went where they should without any apparent intervention from those still human

Are there particular sorts of human with which you deal?

Egad! There's social snobbery among those chickenhawking the newly dead? Necro-predators with "high standards"?

 

[Pyrokar]

So far we mostly know how not to do a group up.

An order should be like a pack, not a corporate power grab for meaningless tittles.
the end point always comes back to the type of companionship an order achieves.
Regardless of the order's job/purpose the members should be as siblings. Anything less is a waste of time
since they don't even have step 1 in the bag. Ironically you might have more success starting a normal
Muggle-type association like a biker club or something and work your way up.
Orders and scams go along well together, and around these parts they really do love the Pyramid scheme.
They would rather trample over others instead of being a brotherhood, while being members of the brotherhood lol
As someone who grew up on The Three Musketeers i hate that.
I've been following a particular order based in Germany, their union worked on that sort of pack mentality
And they have been growing for a while now, hell those guys don't even know they are in an esoteric order.
Only the top few layers do.

But you Xeno in your post seem to suggest any kind of formal training beats the lone ranger. Not even close.
Nor that reinventing the wheel is taking part in endlessly washing down the original.