Traditional Solomonic Evocation vs Modern Demonolatry (Dukante,S.Conolly)

[AxelAchiLles]

Greetings, everyone.


I would like to open a discussion and hear from practitioners who have experimented with different approaches to demonic evocation—particularly older ceremonial methods, in which angels and divine names are employed to bind or constrain demons, compared with modern approaches in which a demon is invoked directly, without coercion or angelic intermediaries.


I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Connolly–Dukanté tradition, which seems to occupy something of a grey area and tends to provoke rather divided reactions. What I find particularly interesting is how widespread the use of enn chants and sigils derived from modern grimoires has become among contemporary practitioners.


For those who have worked with both traditional and modern methods, how did your experiences compare? Did you notice any meaningful difference in the spirit’s manifestation, the effectiveness of the operation, the relationship established with the spirit, or the eventual results?
Does anyone know whether the Dukanté family actually existed, or whether it was simply an invention? Connolly’s methods do appear to work for some practitioners, at least judging by the accounts I have encountered across various forums.


My apologies in advance if this subject has already been discussed elsewhere on the forum. If there is an existing thread addressing the same questions, please feel free to direct me to it.


Thank you.

 

[diana_i_gusarova]

Modern demonolatrists view demons as partners, and sometimes as mentors. Medieval magicians (many of whom were Catholic priests) viewed demons as powerful beings capable of doing many things, but extremely malevolent and dangerous. For them, demons were akin to bandits. A bandit had to be captured, convicted, shackled, and sent to hard labor. If the bandit refused to work, he would be flogged, tortured, and so on. The demon must be summoned, bound with divine names, and forced to carry out the magician’s will. If the demon refuses to do so, the magician will burn its sigil, curse it with the names of God, and so on, which, as was believed, causes the demon suffering.

 

[agloval]

Hi!

I've worked with both approaches quite a bit and here's my take, though everyone's mileage varies.

Classic method (circle, triangle, divine names, angelic constraint): the main difference I notice is control. When you work with the constraint structure, you invoke by authority, you don't beg the spirit, the manifestation tends to be cleaner. Less noise, less of that feeling that you're dealing with something resisting you or playing games. The cost is the rite takes longer and demands more precision. If you botch a voice or a name, you feel it. I personally work mainly from Rudd and the Heptameron, and honestly for anything I actually need results from, that's still my go to.

Modern method (direct evocation, no intermediaries): faster, more intimate, and for certain spirits the relationship you build ends up better long term, less master/servant, more something like a deal between parties. The downside is that without the containment structure, if you run into something uncooperative you're a lot more exposed. I've seen people do well with it and people get into trouble skipping protection because they figured they didn't need it.


On Connolly-Dukanté: my honest opinion is Connolly pulled that family lineage straight out of his ass. There's no documentary trace of that family before the book, and the enn structure doesn't match anything you'd expect from an orally transmitted tradition spanning generations. That said, invented doesn't mean useless. Some people genuinely seem to use the enns and modern sigils as a channeling aid, a rhythm to focus the mind and drop into the working, even if the backstory behind them is fiction. I'm not knocking that use case, it's just not where I personally put my weight for anything serious.

Bottom line: classic for control and heavier work, modern for rapport and speed. If anyone's worked the same spirit both ways with comparable results, I'd genuinely like to hear it, that's the kind of data you don't get any other way.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

Thank you for the information!

Some people claim that the Solomonic method—particularly its angel–demon hierarchy and its emphasis on commanding or constraining spirits—angers demons. Could this be true, and might it be one of the reasons why so many stories have developed around exorcisms, spiritual attacks, and the apparent “discomfort” or hostility that demons sometimes display? After all, who enjoys being dominated or coerced?

We are also essentially dealing with a Judeo-Christian system of evocation, correct? Heaven and Hell, at least as they are commonly understood today, are largely products of Christian theology, so perhaps the idea that angels possess authority over demons belongs to that same theological framework.

Others argue that angels and demons are two sides of the same coin, and that invoking them together produces a more effective, grounded, stable, and controlled evocation.

There are also demonic circles of protection in which the practitioner invokes the nine demonic divinities, if I am not mistaken.

I would also appreciate it if you could recommend a few books on these different approaches. Thank you!

Hi!

I've worked with both approaches quite a bit and here's my take, though everyone's mileage varies.

Classic method (circle, triangle, divine names, angelic constraint): the main difference I notice is control. When you work with the constraint structure, you invoke by authority, you don't beg the spirit, the manifestation tends to be cleaner. Less noise, less of that feeling that you're dealing with something resisting you or playing games. The cost is the rite takes longer and demands more precision. If you botch a voice or a name, you feel it. I personally work mainly from Rudd and the Heptameron, and honestly for anything I actually need results from, that's still my go to.

Modern method (direct evocation, no intermediaries): faster, more intimate, and for certain spirits the relationship you build ends up better long term, less master/servant, more something like a deal between parties. The downside is that without the containment structure, if you run into something uncooperative you're a lot more exposed. I've seen people do well with it and people get into trouble skipping protection because they figured they didn't need it.


On Connolly-Dukanté: my honest opinion is Connolly pulled that family lineage straight out of his ass. There's no documentary trace of that family before the book, and the enn structure doesn't match anything you'd expect from an orally transmitted tradition spanning generations. That said, invented doesn't mean useless. Some people genuinely seem to use the enns and modern sigils as a channeling aid, a rhythm to focus the mind and drop into the working, even if the backstory behind them is fiction. I'm not knocking that use case, it's just not where I personally put my weight for anything serious.

Bottom line: classic for control and heavier work, modern for rapport and speed. If anyone's worked the same spirit both ways with comparable results, I'd genuinely like to hear it, that's the kind of data you don't get any other way.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 2:07 PM

Also, shout-out to this brother over here. @MorganBlack
Seems highly knowledgeable on the subject, and I would greatly appreciate it, if he could share his insights with us.

 

[agloval]

Does constraint anger spirits, some do push back, yeah. I've had rougher experiences with certain goetic spirits. But that's what the structure is for.
You don't skip the seatbelt because the car might not crash.
That said, there's a difference between constraint and disrespect. If the text says King, I address a King. I don't grovel, but I don't walk in like I own the place either. Whether those titles are ontologically real or just how humans catalogued them, probably the latter, but the protocol works either way.
Is it Judeo-Christian, yes, and the names still operate. I don't need the theology to use the tech.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

Does constraint anger spirits, some do push back, yeah. I've had rougher experiences with certain goetic spirits. But that's what the structure is for.
You don't skip the seatbelt because the car might not crash.
That said, there's a difference between constraint and disrespect. If the text says King, I address a King. I don't grovel, but I don't walk in like I own the place either. Whether those titles are ontologically real or just how humans catalogued them, probably the latter, but the protocol works either way.
Is it Judeo-Christian, yes, and the names still operate. I don't need the theology to use the tech.

Any books that you might recomend as a must to a beginner?

 

[agloval]

For practical work: DuQuette, great guy.

John King IV: he documents actual evocations like field reports, what worked, what didn't.

 

[MorganBlack]

Thank you for the ping, @AxelAchiLles !

What Agloval says fits with my own intuition. I am also the wrong person to ask about Daemonolatry methods, because I have not used them, and I try to reseve my hard pinions of practice only to my experiences. (

I do I love how they get everyone out of the magician's armchair. Like, rock on! One of the mods on a Daemonolatry forum is very much of the Neoplatonist school , an excellent magician, and has been educating that community for years now. He shares moderation with a more witchy pagany type with mutual respect. We are all much closer together than we were 10 years ago when they first started getting popular.

I also agree with JSK that the GV has many valid points of entry, and I feel that is true with all of this. I only know about the GV, and only have little experience in other methods, so as always YMMV. I've used the Lesser Key, and they seem more trippy. Using the GV they are more solid and darker, and Lovecraftian . The rituals you use matters. Gen-X magicians on Yahoo forums noticed this back in the 2000s: if we used an Egyptian ritual framework, they were more cosmic and austere. Greek rituals, they were more personal and philosophical. Hard TradCath rituals get more Hellfire demons.

For me I don't think this is a problem, and I rather like it. Personally, I like them having teeth and claws (and being rather Lovecraftian). John King wrote about this, echoed by my experience when he was hanging out with a GV magician he knows, and he also called them Lovecraftian. Not to make this a "real" thing either - I think it's just them rummaging around in my game artist / art director soul and finding astral clothes to take form in that matches the chthonic underworld "vibe"of the GV, tailored (heh) for who I am and where I am at that time.

That said, a certain percentage of that is probably also just me, my soul. I was a very spooky kid. Other GV magicians are mediatating on the daimons' stellar connection and from what they say, they seem to come through much cooler and easy-going, if a little placid appearing to my more high-octane personality and lifestyle.

To echo what Agloval is saying, we can think of each of the grimoires is kind of like a radio (or Bat Signal, heh) . You can strip it out and it will still work, even while the signal might be a little fuzzy and mixed with a lot of your personal subconscious "stuff" (FYI, This is in part the theurgy aspect of doing the rituals, to restructure our souls and our consciousness to tune into the centuries of magicians using the GV / Geotic / Grand Grimoire / Lesser Key / Black Dragon framework. Time is an illusion and we are ALL making this shared Goetic reality right now, us and the daimons, in my opinion.)

The GV is a series of grimoires across centrue and mutiple coutries , with a huge folk magic tradition we are still tracking down. We are begininng to suspect he bulk of magic with the spirits entailed using pretty simple folk magic conjure methods that probably look a lot like this:

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...

wizardforums.com

I have used simple conjure methods like the above - more physical conjure and less mental telepathy methods - and with the GV daimons who are not my pacted allies contacted through the formal protocols, and they work great! No muss, no fuss. I will say it's a bit more "wild" since it is unstructured and they can just show up anytime, but that is true even with circles and the kit.

JSK said, and I agree working this way you are foregoing some of the safety protocols built into the GV's more from formal opening of inter-dimensional diplomatic relations, but this is different from saying it can't work, when it obviously does. But the issue is mostly for newcomers who have not yet made solid protective allies just yet.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

If I understood you correctly, is the Grimorium Verum the only grimoire—and the only ritual system—you have ever worked with? If you don’t mind me asking, how many years have you been practising, from the very beginning of your journey up to the present day?

Yes, I fully understand. However, I find medieval conjurations rather troubling, as they seem hostile or excessively restrictive toward the spirits. There is so much threatening, cursing, and condemnation directed at the spirits themselves, particularly in Solomonic magic.

I believe this may be one of the main reasons demons acquired such a terrible reputation—and why it has taken us so many years to clear away the layers of stigma, distortion, and misinformation surrounding them. In my view, the heavily -jeudo-jewish-Christian-Solomonic tradition of the medieval period played a major role in portraying these spirits as inherently evil and terrifying.

Meanwhile, Christians themselves were committing all kinds of atrocities, yet somehow it was always “the demons” who were supposedly to blame. Forgive me if I find that rather ironic.

In any case, I would genuinely like to hear your perspective on this.

Thank you for the ping, @AxelAchiLles !

What Agloval says fits with my own intuition. I am also the wrong person to ask about Daemonolatry methods, because I have not used them, and I try to reseve my hard pinions of practice only to my experiences. (

I do I love how they get everyone out of the magician's armchair. Like, rock on! One of the mods on a Daemonolatry forum is very much of the Neoplatonist school , an excellent magician, and has been educating that community for years now. He shares moderation with a more witchy pagany type with mutual respect. We are all much closer together than we were 10 years ago when they first started getting popular.

I also agree with JSK that the GV has many valid points of entry, and I feel that is true with all of this. I only know about the GV, and only have little experience in other methods, so as always YMMV. I've used the Lesser Key, and they seem more trippy. Using the GV they are more solid and darker, and Lovecraftian . The rituals you use matters. Gen-X magicians on Yahoo forums noticed this back in the 2000s: if we used an Egyptian ritual framework, they were more cosmic and austere. Greek rituals, they were more personal and philosophical. Hard TradCath rituals get more Hellfire demons.

For me I don't think this is a problem, and I rather like it. Personally, I like them having teeth and claws (and being rather Lovecraftian). John King wrote about this, echoed by my experience when he was hanging out with a GV magician he knows, and he also called them Lovecraftian. Not to make this a "real" thing either - I think it's just them rummaging around in my game artist / art director soul and finding astral clothes to take form in that matches the chthonic underworld "vibe"of the GV, tailored (heh) for who I am and where I am at that time.

That said, a certain percentage of that is probably also just me, my soul. I was a very spooky kid. Other GV magicians are mediatating on the daimons' stellar connection and from what they say, they seem to come through much cooler and easy-going, if a little placid appearing to my more high-octane personality and lifestyle.

To echo what Agloval is saying, we can think of each of the grimoires is kind of like a radio (or Bat Signal, heh) . You can strip it out and it will still work, even while the signal might be a little fuzzy and mixed with a lot of your personal subconscious "stuff" (FYI, This is in part the theurgy aspect of doing the rituals, to restructure our souls and our consciousness to tune into the centuries of magicians using the GV / Geotic / Grand Grimoire / Lesser Key / Black Dragon framework. Time is an illusion and we are ALL making this shared Goetic reality right now, us and the daimons, in my opinion.)

The GV is a series of grimoires across centrue and mutiple coutries , with a huge folk magic tradition we are still tracking down. We are begininng to suspect he bulk of magic with the spirits entailed using pretty simple folk magic conjure methods that probably look a lot like this:

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...

wizardforums.com

I have used simple conjure methods like the above - more physical conjure and less mental telepathy methods - and with the GV daimons who are not my pacted allies contacted through the formal protocols, and they work great! No muss, no fuss. I will say it's a bit more "wild" since it is unstructured and they can just show up anytime, but that is true even with circles and the kit.

JSK said, and I agree working this way you are foregoing some of the safety protocols built into the GV's more from formal opening of inter-dimensional diplomatic relations, but this is different from saying it can't work, when it obviously does. But the issue is mostly for newcomers who have not yet made solid protective allies just yet.

 

[reverendsteveii]

I've been working the relational model with demons for close to ten years now with absolutely astounding success. I started by taking Dantalion as my patron and developing a relationship with him, and now I'm in the process of building a practice around the great beasts of the bible (Leviathan, Behemoth, and Ziz) alongside 9 other goetic/demonic entities. The primary difference between what I do and Solomonic work has already been outlined here: I develop relationships with my demons. Sometimes that means following the Connolly work, sometimes it means working from other texts, sometimes it's 100% UPG (there is a shocking dearth of information about Ziz, for example. I had to determine a sigil and an enn myself after a lot of visionary meditation focused on him, but its been so very worth it to have such a great archon of air, intellect, power and masculinity). A lot of times it ends in me discovering something akin to what LHP practitioners like Mason, Ford and Jehannum refer to as "currents". Basically, thinking of these entities as projections of an extradimensional....thing....into the set of dimensions that we as humans are capable of observing implies that there is more to them than we can experience and also that projections that have a lot of related characteristics can and should be thought of as being projections from close or overlapping portions of the entire extradimensional entity. As an example, bringing Leviathan into my practice involved a lot of research into the idea of chaotic, feminine, water-associated entities and part of the UPG she gave me was a quick blessing where I anoint myself with perfumed fresh water and smoky salt water on different parts of my body while acknowledging several of the overlapping entities that make up the Leviathan entity-memeplex . The sweet water/salt water thing calls back to the idea of Tiamat being the chaos salt water mother and Absu being the order sweet water father, and it just sort of pulls me closer to that archetype/current. I'm also currently developing one surrounding fire and destruction that involves a relationship between Satan in his form as adversary (Shaitan/Ahriman), Naama as mother-of-demons and particularly as mother of Asmodeus, the final demon in that current. The three of them together represent destruction in the way of adversarial relationships (Satan) leading to the destructive intent (Naama) and that intent manifesting as material destruction (Asmodeus). The air current is Lucifer as intellectual originator/promethean figure, dantalion as "wish granter" and Ziz as the physical manifestation of intellect, and the earth current is Lucifuge Rofocale as the source of physical law through Belial as the leader of the demons and into Behemoth as the enforcer.

I only go this deep into my practice to illustrate the idea that none of this is possible with the Solomonic "bind and abjure" model that treats demons as powerful adversaries to be overcome and controlled. The thing about demanding respect through strength is that you had better always be the strongest in the room, and the entities you dominate will give you the bare minimum to prevent you hurting them. Earning respect through devotion builds a durable relationship that yields unexpected rewards. As an example, I once as a joke asked Dantalion to help me find a parking space and I swear to you that since then I've never had to park more than a block from anywhere I was going. I think he thought of it as a joke, the idea that I should work so hard to develop a relationship with such a powerful being to such an inconsequential end.

I also want to echo agloval. The process of developing these relationships means a lot of information coming to you that really only applies to you and your practice. Lots of UPG, lots of correspondences that may only work on your end. Also lots of reaching out and just getting flatly rejected. Belphegor is kind of a dick, and happily took my offerings while providing just about nothing in return. Brining Behemoth into my home gym involved tearing a muscle and a concomitant 6 week long journey of recovery. It gets weird, but if you're smart and persistent it's almost always good.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

I've been working the relational model with demons for close to ten years now with absolutely astounding success. I started by taking Dantalion as my patron and developing a relationship with him, and now I'm in the process of building a practice around the great beasts of the bible (Leviathan, Behemoth, and Ziz) alongside 9 other goetic/demonic entities. The primary difference between what I do and Solomonic work has already been outlined here: I develop relationships with my demons. Sometimes that means following the Connolly work, sometimes it means working from other texts, sometimes it's 100% UPG (there is a shocking dearth of information about Ziz, for example. I had to determine a sigil and an enn myself after a lot of visionary meditation focused on him, but its been so very worth it to have such a great archon of air, intellect, power and masculinity). A lot of times it ends in me discovering something akin to what LHP practitioners like Mason, Ford and Jehannum refer to as "currents". Basically, thinking of these entities as projections of an extradimensional....thing....into the set of dimensions that we as humans are capable of observing implies that there is more to them than we can experience and also that projections that have a lot of related characteristics can and should be thought of as being projections from close or overlapping portions of the entire extradimensional entity. As an example, bringing Leviathan into my practice involved a lot of research into the idea of chaotic, feminine, water-associated entities and part of the UPG she gave me was a quick blessing where I anoint myself with perfumed fresh water and smoky salt water on different parts of my body while acknowledging several of the overlapping entities that make up the Leviathan entity-memeplex . The sweet water/salt water thing calls back to the idea of Tiamat being the chaos salt water mother and Absu being the order sweet water father, and it just sort of pulls me closer to that archetype/current. I'm also currently developing one surrounding fire and destruction that involves a relationship between Satan in his form as adversary (Shaitan/Ahriman), Naama as mother-of-demons and particularly as mother of Asmodeus, the final demon in that current. The three of them together represent destruction in the way of adversarial relationships (Satan) leading to the destructive intent (Naama) and that intent manifesting as material destruction (Asmodeus). The air current is Lucifer as intellectual originator/promethean figure, dantalion as "wish granter" and Ziz as the physical manifestation of intellect, and the earth current is Lucifuge Rofocale as the source of physical law through Belial as the leader of the demons and into Behemoth as the enforcer.

I only go this deep into my practice to illustrate the idea that none of this is possible with the Solomonic "bind and abjure" model that treats demons as powerful adversaries to be overcome and controlled. The thing about demanding respect through strength is that you had better always be the strongest in the room, and the entities you dominate will give you the bare minimum to prevent you hurting them. Earning respect through devotion builds a durable relationship that yields unexpected rewards. As an example, I once as a joke asked Dantalion to help me find a parking space and I swear to you that since then I've never had to park more than a block from anywhere I was going. I think he thought of it as a joke, the idea that I should work so hard to develop a relationship with such a powerful being to such an inconsequential end.

I also want to echo agloval. The process of developing these relationships means a lot of information coming to you that really only applies to you and your practice. Lots of UPG, lots of correspondences that may only work on your end. Also lots of reaching out and just getting flatly rejected. Belphegor is kind of a dick, and happily took my offerings while providing just about nothing in return. Brining Behemoth into my home gym involved tearing a muscle and a concomitant 6 week long journey of recovery. It gets weird, but if you're smart and persistent it's almost always good.

And whats your current of "relational model" with demons? The demonolatry current you mean?

 

[agloval]

I'm in agreement with @MorganBlack on this one: you need solid allies before diving into demonolatry, and honestly, it depends entirely on which entity you're working with. I wouldn't summon Stolas even with all the protective gear I employ so demonolatry doesn't strike me as the right approach for him.

 

[MorganBlack]

If I understood you correctly, is the Grimorium Verum the only grimoire—and the only ritual system—you have ever worked with? If you don’t mind me asking, how many years have you been practising, from the very beginning of your journey up to the present day?

Grimorium Verum is the only grimoire I seriously used and have since the mid-1990s, but I have tinkered with the Lesser Key. I am indebted to the late, great - and seriously messed up - magician Jason Black for giving me a sorcerous kick in the seat of the pants I needed.
Author - Jason S. Black’s notes from 'Pacts with The Devil' (1993)

In terms of other systems, I use Conjure / Brujeria (which combines with the GV very nicely) , the PGM, and Folk Catholic magic. I was OTO and am very indebted to the A∴A∴ training system, as well as a healthy Zen meditation practice.

My first serious working was in 1995 when I cobbled together a ritual using a hodgepodge of the Grand Grimoire and the GV. It worked dramatically - I got everything I wanted - but because I did not really believe in, or take seriously, the daimons then ( I was raised very secular) , and I did not keep my end of the bargain. I will not go into the depth of the living hell that created for me, until learned how to make amends. I later learned how keep from happening by applying lessons I learned in Haitian Vodu from my hougan.

Vodou is not really a system, do i did not include it above. Also Iam not Haitian, and I dislike speaking for a deep,living magical culture that is also not mine.

However, I find medieval conjurations rather troubling, as they seem hostile or excessively restrictive toward the spirits.

Not the GV. It is very "witchy." It expect you to have a friendship with the daimon . It is not necessarily 100% "spirit-friendly" but aligns more with the global Neolithic "shamanic" approach when approaching spirits, and less with the WitchTok,"spirits are your cuddly-buddy. "

The idea daimons are evil is not part of the older Catholic view of 14th to 16th century Italy when the GV system was codified based on earlier Catholic traditions. That view is much closer to the Hellenic perspective of the period the GV was created in, whereas the idea that they are purely evil is mostly a creation of Protestantism and some psychotics taking Dante way, way too literally.

I know nothing about this monolithic "Christianity" everyone keeps talking about (and hallucinating). There are many Catholicisms.

My maternal family is Mexican-American Catholic, which is a blend of Catholicism and Nahua indigenous ideas. My aunt was a curandera - a Mexican-Aermican folk healer in San Antonio, Texas - and she was certainly not committing any atrocities. Nor were any of my family. Everybody's ancestors committed all sorts of atrocities. Not sure why it only counts when they are done by Christians. Humans can be terrible, and religion does not automatically fix that.

 

[reverendsteveii]

And whats your current of "relational model" with demons? The demonolatry current you mean?

The idea is to try to understand and develop a working relationship with the entity/current behind the projection into our world. So far, what has worked more often than it has failed is starting with a research period where I read up on the entity, on directly related entities (in cases where they exist, such as Leviathan/Tiamat or in how Inanna became Astarte became Astaroth), on entities that fill similar niches, background information like that. This also involves learning the mythology behind the entity as well as investigating occult practices that have worked for others regarding the entity or related entities. This gives me an idea of who I'm talking to and how to get ahold of them. That's often pretty well-documented. As an example, Lucifer is pretty much the hardest working entity in the entirety of the occult. There are a million different ways to get ahold of him: the traditional Solomonic binding thing, chanting an enn and meditating on a sigil, pathworking, killing a rooster at a crossroads at midnight, all sorts of shit. All of them have the potential to work, it comes down to the individual practitioner, but generally if something has a high enough success rate among most folk that's where I start because that's a strong indicator that it'll work for me. There are others though: there's just this side of nothing at all about working with Ziz. There are, however, numerous examples of giant birds that, taken together, can establish a current. SImurgh, Rukh, Quetzalcoatl, the various native North American legends surrounding thunderbirds, enough to flesh out a idea of a sky king and an embodiment of masculinity, air and intellect. From there, it's time to start building correspondences. A lot of the great birds are to do with storms, making Thursday a natural day for them. Colors like sky blue and yellow/orange for sun make sense. Frankincense makes sense for incense and Mercury for both metal and planetary aligment. So now I've got the bones of a ritual to try to contact Ziz: on a Thursday during the hour of Mercury I dress a blue candle and a yellow candle in the Mercury oil that I keep for such a purpose, light them alongside some frankincense, then I sit down and meditate on the themes from the current I've defined. Sometimes that ends up being a dead end, sometimes it fizzles out the first few times I try it, and sometimes it actually results in something. For Ziz in particular, it resulted in the enn "Ziz tabek ad nasir an" (you're welcome to try it, ymmv when it comes to results) and a sigil that I can use to contact Ziz directly now. So I do from time to time, either to thank him for something that happened that seemed like his doing, ask advice on matters intellectual, for manifesting results that seem to be within his domain or just to maintain the relationship.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

The idea is to try to understand and develop a working relationship with the entity/current behind the projection into our world. So far, what has worked more often than it has failed is starting with a research period where I read up on the entity, on directly related entities (in cases where they exist, such as Leviathan/Tiamat or in how Inanna became Astarte became Astaroth), on entities that fill similar niches, background information like that. This also involves learning the mythology behind the entity as well as investigating occult practices that have worked for others regarding the entity or related entities. This gives me an idea of who I'm talking to and how to get ahold of them. That's often pretty well-documented. As an example, Lucifer is pretty much the hardest working entity in the entirety of the occult. There are a million different ways to get ahold of him: the traditional Solomonic binding thing, chanting an enn and meditating on a sigil, pathworking, killing a rooster at a crossroads at midnight, all sorts of shit. All of them have the potential to work, it comes down to the individual practitioner, but generally if something has a high enough success rate among most folk that's where I start because that's a strong indicator that it'll work for me. There are others though: there's just this side of nothing at all about working with Ziz. There are, however, numerous examples of giant birds that, taken together, can establish a current. SImurgh, Rukh, Quetzalcoatl, the various native North American legends surrounding thunderbirds, enough to flesh out a idea of a sky king and an embodiment of masculinity, air and intellect. From there, it's time to start building correspondences. A lot of the great birds are to do with storms, making Thursday a natural day for them. Colors like sky blue and yellow/orange for sun make sense. Frankincense makes sense for incense and Mercury for both metal and planetary aligment. So now I've got the bones of a ritual to try to contact Ziz: on a Thursday during the hour of Mercury I dress a blue candle and a yellow candle in the Mercury oil that I keep for such a purpose, light them alongside some frankincense, then I sit down and meditate on the themes from the current I've defined. Sometimes that ends up being a dead end, sometimes it fizzles out the first few times I try it, and sometimes it actually results in something. For Ziz in particular, it resulted in the enn "Ziz tabek ad nasir an" (you're welcome to try it, ymmv when it comes to results) and a sigil that I can use to contact Ziz directly now. So I do from time to time, either to thank him for something that happened that seemed like his doing, ask advice on matters intellectual, for manifesting results that seem to be within his domain or just to maintain the relationship.

How in the world does killing a rooster at a crossroads at midnight invoke Lucifer? A daimon of pure light and love, a daimon of Air, with all these positive attributes. I’ve never understood how sacrificing another being is supposed to invoke and conjure the Daimons. Sacrificing another being seems so heavily rooted in Hebrew-Judeo-Christian theology.


Literally, you grab a rooster, slaughter it at a crossroads, and then—boom—Lucifer appears? Sorry, guys, but some things really mess with my train of thought, hahaha. It just seems so incredibly random to me. As for the rest, I understand where you’re coming from. What books would you consider to be good guides?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:57 PM

Grimorium Verum is the only grimoire I seriously used and have since the mid-1990s, but I have tinkered with the Lesser Key. I am indebted to the late, great - and seriously messed up - magician Jason Black for giving me a sorcerous kick in the seat of the pants I needed.
Author - Jason S. Black’s notes from 'Pacts with The Devil' (1993)

In terms of other systems, I use Conjure / Brujeria (which combines with the GV very nicely) , the PGM, and Folk Catholic magic. I was OTO and am very indebted to the A∴A∴ training system, as well as a healthy Zen meditation practice.

My first serious working was in 1995 when I cobbled together a ritual using a hodgepodge of the Grand Grimoire and the GV. It worked dramatically - I got everything I wanted - but because I did not really believe in, or take seriously, the daimons then ( I was raised very secular) , and I did not keep my end of the bargain. I will not go into the depth of the living hell that created for me, until learned how to make amends. I later learned how keep from happening by applying lessons I learned in Haitian Vodu from my hougan.

Vodou is not really a system, do i did not include it above. Also Iam not Haitian, and I dislike speaking for a deep,living magical culture that is also not mine.




Not the GV. It is very "witchy." It expect you to have a friendship with the daimon . It is not necessarily 100% "spirit-friendly" but aligns more with the global Neolithic "shamanic" approach when approaching spirits, and less with the WitchTok,"spirits are your cuddly-buddy. "

The idea daimons are evil is not part of the older Catholic view of 14th to 16th century Italy when the GV system was codified based on earlier Catholic traditions. That view is much closer to the Hellenic perspective of the period the GV was created in, whereas the idea that they are purely evil is mostly a creation of Protestantism and some psychotics taking Dante way, way too literally.

I know nothing about this monolithic "Christianity" everyone keeps talking about (and hallucinating). There are many Catholicisms.

My maternal family is Mexican-American Catholic, which is a blend of Catholicism and Nahua indigenous ideas. My aunt was a curandera - a Mexican-Aermican folk healer in San Antonio, Texas - and she was certainly not committing any atrocities. Nor were any of my family. Everybody's ancestors committed all sorts of atrocities. Not sure why it only counts when they are done by Christians. Humans can be terrible, and religion does not automatically fix that.

I read that the Grimorium Verum contains animal sacrifices, as well as requirements for creating swords using specific materials and techniques that seemingly only a blacksmith could realistically carry out, and so on. How did you personally approach those aspects? Also, I’ve seen some people mention major inconsistencies between the Italian editions, the French editions, and the English translations.

 

[reverendsteveii]

How in the world does killing a rooster at a crossroads at midnight invoke Lucifer?


What books would you consider to be good guides?

The rooster thing was facetious. It might work for someone somewhere but I've never tried it or seen it recommended. The point was to illustrate the incredible breadth of ways people have tried to contact Lucifer as he's sort of an It Girl among LHP practitioners

As far as books go, Rose's Lucifer and the Hidden Demons and Hargrove's Goetia Pathworking are the turnkey "I have a bit of occult experience and I need to talk to a demon today" practical books that I've had a lot of good experiences with. If you'd like to get more into the theoretical and develop more complex rituals, Connolly is an incredible resource. The Draconian folk like Asenath Mason, Michael Ford and VK Jehannum were also good resources for me, not necessarily because I implemented their practices but because I saw how they implemented their practices and used that to inform how I implement my own. This goes double for Mason, who is adept at developing ritual and correspondence around thoughtforms that don't have much previous use in the occult. Their work on Lovecraftian thoughtforms as genuine occult entities is what taught me how to make contact with Behemoth, Ziz, Onoskelis, Naama and other entities around which there isn't usually much practice.

 

[MorganBlack]

I read that the Grimorium Verum contains animal sacrifices, as well as requirements for creating swords using specific materials and techniques

There are no swords in the GV. Anyone who told you that is misinformed.

And the Lesser Key style Chain Curse people think is everywhere , and cite all the time for why we magican are such mean people, is also not in the GV. (Well, I am mean, but not because I do or don't use the Chain Curse from a completely different gimoire.) Before forming hard opinions may I suggeste reading the GV first? Any version will do.

Why does everyonethese days think you have to do the grimoire letter-perfect or it won't work? It's not that rigid. Peterson has reconstructed the GV from many the local copies, but the GV is actually a tradition of diabolist folk sorcery, not a single grimoire. The evidential dates keep going back in time further and further. Think of it more like cooking a known culturaldish rather than a strict scientific procedure. (That is an artifact left over from Crowley's thinking )

Listen, this is a mythic journey. Better. Ask yourself WHY there a is a circle, a knife, a bigger knife and two wands, some incense,some herbs, a liming pot, etc. Mediate on them instead of trying to find the "true" Master combo. The time you spend arriving aty these anwers is part of the work. And i do not recommnd just skipping it

Same deal with the animal sacrifice. (I do not like it personally , but I am not against it. Sorcerers I respect in New World Folk Catholic traditions use a lot of life force offerings.)

You might be disappointed to learn the GV daimons are really not bloodthirsty. The one time an animal blood is mentioned is in the creation of First Character. From the Peterson first edition, but this is very consistent"

"If you are male, in your right pocket, written in your own blood, or that of a sea turtle."

Do I need to point out it does not say kill the turtle. Drawing blood is usually not a fatal medical procedure.

 

[AxelAchiLles]

There are no swords in the GV. Anyone who told you that is misinformed.

And the Lesser Key style Chain Curse people think is everywhere , and cite all the time for why we magican are such mean people, is also not in the GV. (Well, I am mean, but not because I do or don't use the Chain Curse from a completely different gimoire.) Before forming hard opinions may I suggeste reading the GV first? Any version will do.

Why does everyonethese days think you have to do the grimoire letter-perfect or it won't work? It's not that rigid. Peterson has reconstructed the GV from many the local copies, but the GV is actually a tradition of diabolist folk sorcery, not a single grimoire. The evidential dates keep going back in time further and further. Think of it more like cooking a known culturaldish rather than a strict scientific procedure. (That is an artifact left over from Crowley's thinking )

Listen, this is a mythic journey. Better. Ask yourself WHY there a is a circle, a knife, a bigger knife and two wands, some incense,some herbs, a liming pot, etc. Mediate on them instead of trying to find the "true" Master combo. The time you spend arriving aty these anwers is part of the work. And i do not recommnd just skipping it

Same deal with the animal sacrifice. (I do not like it personally , but I am not against it. Sorcerers I respect in New World Folk Catholic traditions use a lot of life force offerings.)

You might be disappointed to learn the GV daimons are really not bloodthirsty. The one time an animal blood is mentioned is in the creation of First Character. From the Peterson first edition, but this is very consistent"

"If you are male, in your right pocket, written in your own blood, or that of a sea turtle."

Do I need to point out it does not say kill the turtle. Drawing blood is usually not a fatal medical procedure.

Could someone potentially use their own blood—by pricking a finger with a needle, for example—and offer that instead of drawing blood from an animal?

Another point that really caught my attention was what you said about demons appearing in different masks, robes, or clothing depending on the system through which they are approached. You mentioned that the spirits of the Grimorium Verum appear different—more Lovecraftian—whereas, within a traditional Catholic framework, they may manifest in a more stereotypically infernal, hellfire-and-brimstone fashion, haha.

Could you elaborate on that? Why do you think this happens? Do you consider it purely part of your personal gnosis, or have you encountered similar accounts from other practitioners as well?