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Truth invented to promote feudal patriarchy

Jackson

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AṦA, “truth” in Avestan, from Indo-Iranian *ṛtá-, a neuter noun having the same meaning. The religious poet drives the true words of his hymn as the charioteer the horses; the metaphors of Indo-Iranian poetry are taken from the world of warriors. From that we can conclude that there were in that period no classes like those attested later in the Avesta and the Veda. Nomad feudalism will have prevailed with cattle breeding as the most important economic basis. The poet follows the truth as follower of a feudal lord; “troops of truth”; “combatant of truth;” “to uphold the truth”; “to venerate the truth”; “to serve truth”.

Many scholars understand aṧa- and Vedic ṛtá- as also meaning “order” (cosmic order, social order, moral order) or “righteousness." “(Lord) Wisdom (is) the father of truth:” The hymns are mainly devoted to the association of abstract concepts with Wisdom: "Truth", "Good Thinking”, “Dominion”, “Devotion”, “Reward”, “Life”, “Wholeness”, “Obedience”. A central theme in the Gathas is that Ahura Mazdā is identical with these abstract powers. They coincide and merge in Ahura Mazdā. The underlying aim is to make them “aspects” of Ahura Mazdā. Dominion is a form of truth and results from truth. Since the Aməṧa Spəṇtas represent the totality of good moral qualities, it is easy to understand why the other Aməṧa Spəṇtas were assigned evil counterparts.

JEH, name of a female demon in a small number of Zoroastrian Middle Persian texts. The name of Jeh is commonly, but with little justification, translated as “whore.” That word is used in a number of different meanings, but it appears to have originally meant “woman”. The word is used in a pejorative sense, to denote women who are somehow flawed; women who do not produce children; adulterous women, dressing inappropriately or by behaving immodestly. This theme of adultery, in addition to the theme of sorcery, was apparently understood as its basic meaning when Zoroastrian scholars in the Sasanian period began to study and interpret the whole body of Avestan texts.

A small number of passages, however, speak of a demoness named Jeh, who was made famous as Jeh, the Primal Whore by R. C. Zaehner (esp. pp. 183-92). In the fourth chapter of the Bundahišn (q.v.), the story is told of the initial stages of the struggle between Ohrmazd (see
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) and Ahriman (q.v.). When they had sealed the pact that bound them to battle, Ahriman realized that his efforts would be fruitless because of Ohrmazd’s creation of the Righteous Man. This brought him into a state of unconsciousness that lasted 3,000 years.

One by one, his demons told him of their wicked plans, in order to awaken their lord, but this did not work, until Jeh came and told him of her plan to attack the good creation by perverting the righteous man. This restored Ahriman to consciousness, and he rewarded Jeh by kissing her on her forehead, which caused her to menstruate (the “mark” [daxšta-] passed on to mortal women since), and by promising to give her whatever she wanted. At that moment, she was shown (presumably by Ohrmazd) the image of a young man, and she chose as her reward the love of men, which Ahriman grudgingly granted her.

A more likely background to the myth of Jeh can be found in two aspects of her personality: the fact that she is Ahriman’s wife, daughter, and Queen of Hell and the fact that she threatens the Righteous Man, Ohrmazd’s chief aide in the battle against evil. These aspects are the exact inversion of the most important characteristics of the goddess Spandārmad in Middle Persian literature, who is described as Ohrmazd’s queen, daughter, and wife. This imagery appears to have developed fairly late in the Zoroastrian tradition and in being thus elevated to the position of “mother of creation,” Spandārmad appears to have usurped various aspects of other goddesses (Aši [q.v.] and Anāhitā [see
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]), especially as an image of the desirable behavior of married women.

A largely parallel story has been preserved by the Syrian theologian Theodore Bar Koni (Benveniste; see
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), with one dramatic difference: in his version of the story, it is not a demoness who is rewarded by Ahriman, but it is women themselves, who were created by Ohrmazd, but defected to the Evil Spirit. By combining these two passages, from the Bundahišn and from Bar Koni, Zaehner believed he could prove that in Zurvanism (a purported “heretical” variety of Zoroastrianism), women were seen as creatures of Ahriman. He attempted to support this striking idea by collecting various Zoroastrian passages which spoke about women in negative terms and then simply claiming them to be Zurvanite. These suggestions were picked up and elaborated upon by Geo Widengren and others, but they have since been shown to be unsoundly based (De Jong).

In such a context, where Ohrmazd and Spandārmad embodied and patronized the ideal of good men and women, united in marriage and dedicated to virtue, it is understandable that Ahriman also needed a wife, who would embody those aspects of female behavior that were considered most damaging to the cause of good. Since the word jeh was obviously in use for adulterous women who engaged in sorcery, a hypostatized Jeh eminently fitted the profile. But the development was late and remained confined to two texts: the Bundahišn and Zādspram. It did not develop into a fixed part of Zoroastrian cosmogonical myths and did not eclipse the use of the word jeh in its technical, human meaning.
 

Xenophon

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Take your meds and take a nap. If I say "The cat is on the mat," and the cat is indeed on the mat, patriarchy scarcely enters into the matter.
 

Jackson

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Take your meds and take a nap. If I say "The cat is on the mat," and the cat is indeed on the mat, patriarchy scarcely enters into the matter.
Stfu, I am versed in the in the daodejing and school of names diatribe.

The cat isn't on the mat until you define the cat and the mat.
Post automatically merged:

A cat is a liquid encased in fur.
 

Xenophon

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Stfu, I am versed in the in the daodejing and school of names diatribe.

The cat isn't on the mat until you define the cat and the mat.
Post automatically merged:

A cat is a liquid encased in fur.
That is a gambit highly reminiscent of analytic philosophy, a highly patriarchal movement in 20th century Anglo-American circles. Quoth Wittgenstein, "Explanations come to an end at some point." I taught philosophy for a spell. If you insist on definitions of what we both know we both know, it is a waste to time playing childish games with you.
 

Jackson

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If you insist on definitions of what we both know we both know, it is a waste to time playing childish games with you.
Physics dictate that the cat is suspended above the mat by the electromagnetic force that binds the atoms.

If not for the electrons, the cat would fall through the mat. But the cat isn't on it. There is no contact between their atoms.
 

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Physics dictate that the cat is suspended above the mat by the electromagnetic force that binds the atoms.

If not for the electrons, the cat would fall through the mat. But the cat isn't on it. There is no contact between their atoms.
If you say so. Here, junior. Be a good lad. Go out in the yard and clobber daddy a nasty old patriarch with your uncarved block.
 

Jackson

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If you say so. Here, junior. Be a good lad. Go out in the yard and clobber daddy a nasty old patriarch with your uncarved block.
Although I don't personally attribute mal-intent to you here, and this could also be interpreted as Daoist rhetoric, I would suggest that you cross the line here.
 

Jackson

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I must admit, of all the ways to smash the patriarchy, I was not expecting "denying the existence of truth" to be on the table.
It only looks like a cat from the particular vantage of our third dimension access point. Based on your own multiple universe usages, it should be a dog the next dimension over.
 

Robert Ramsay

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It only looks like a cat from the particular vantage of our third dimension access point. Based on your own multiple universe usages, it should be a dog the next dimension over.
That isn't correct. I'm just re-reading David Deutsch's book "The Fabric of Reality".

Imagine looking through an electron microscope at a DNA molecule from a bear’s cell, and trying to distinguish the genes from the non-gene sequences and to estimate the degree of adaptation of each gene. In any one universe, this task is impossible. The property of being a gene – that is, of being highly adapted – is, in so far as it can be detected within one universe, overwhelmingly complicated. It is an emergent property. You would have to make many copies of the DNA, with variations, use genetic engineering to create many bear embryos for each variant of the DNA, allow the bears to grow up and live in a variety of environments representative of the bear’s niche, and see which bears succeed in having offspring.

But with a magic microscope that could see into other universes (which, I stress, is not possible: we are using theory to imagine – or render – what we know must be there) the task would be easy. The genes would stand out from the non-genes just as cultivated fields stand out from a jungle in an aerial photograph, or like crystals that have precipitated from solution. They are regular across many nearby universes, while all the non-gene, junk-DNA segments are irregular. As for the degree of adaptation of a gene, this is almost as easy to estimate. The better-adapted genes will have the same structure over a wider range of universes – they will have bigger ‘crystals’.

Deutsch, David. The Fabric of Reality: Towards a Theory of Everything (Penguin Science) (pp. 190-191). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.
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So basically, you would need to be so far away from the original cat universe for it to be replaced by a dog that the two universes would be unlikely to hold similarity.
 

Jackson

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In your model, you couldn't have just purchased a dog instead?
 

Robert Ramsay

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yes, but that set of universes would be so different from the 'cat' set of universes that they would no longer be similiar. Also, a cat would still be a cat and a dog would still be a dog. i.e. a cat doesn't just look like a cat, it is a cat. Even if you chose a universe where the cat had been replaced by a dog, it wouldn't be a cat disguised as a dog, it really would be a dog.

I understand that it's easy to show that there is no such thing as Ultimate Truth because at some point you still have to take something on faith as your starting point, whether that be "This is a cat" or "there are such things as atoms". I'm sure plenty of Vroomfondels and Majikthises have made their money explaining this on chat shows.

However, as I understand it, our working definition of truth (small 't') is based on consistency. "Is this supposedly true statement both self-consistent and consistent with everything we know about the situation?" This is why things can be considered 'true' until further facts come to light which contradict the previous truth.

Ahh you sly dog, you got me monologuing :D
 

Jackson

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I understand that it's easy to show that there is no such thing as Ultimate Truth because at some point you still have to take something on faith as your starting point, whether that be "This is a cat" or "there are such things as atoms".
The extraordinary way is not the common way; Names that name are not common names;
possessing-a-name is the innumerable thing's origin.

Be without desire, in-order to to examine the subtle; have a constant aim to examine the boundary.

where is faith in this?
 

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A useful propaideutic to this topic might be reading Richard Rorty's remarks on "interminable arguments" in his Philosophy & the Mirror of Nature. His point, roughly is that there are no "eternal questions." Any argument incapable of resolution is one where thinking has gone sorely astray. Heidegger used Plato's Parmenides to suggest that philosophy had thusly gone astray early indeed in Western history. "For manifestly you have long been aware of what you mean when you use the expression ‘ being ’. We, however, who used to think we understood it, have now have forgotten what we mean by the term."

Myself, I have always liked Pilate's amused rejoinder to Jesus, "What is truth?" Said in a spirit of I know what I know and adjust as events force it on me...which is not so very often, after all.
 

Jackson

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A useful propaideutic to this topic might be reading Richard Rorty's remarks on "interminable arguments" in his Philosophy & the Mirror of Nature. His point, roughly is that there are no "eternal questions."
Why would a thread denying truth be opposed to the idea that there are no eternal questions?

Truth is generally inaccurately characterized as eternal. As someone who denies the eternal, you are on my side.
 

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Why would a thread denying truth be opposed to the idea that there are no eternal questions?

Truth is generally inaccurately characterized as eternal. As someone who denies the eternal, you are on my side.
Ok, we may be in agreement after all. I recall Nietzsche said he picked the name Zarathustra for his "Also Sprach &c &c." because the Persian sage had much to answer for in inventing eternal Good, Evil, Truth and the like. If you're attacking capital T- truth, I'll pass you ammunition. I was stumping for modest, homespun truth as "warranted assertability." The kind of thing that gets revised as often as we change socks. Eternal Truth is mostly the hard likker that fuels hubris binges.

My apologies for the contretemps.
 

Jackson

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Answering a question doesn't establish a truth, it establishes a name
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; a categorical descriptor.

I would have considered that basic. Without numerology, you know very well that the word cat has no inherent connection to it's creature.

It would find it at least metaphysically interesting if you argued that the word cat sits on a mat.
 

Robert Ramsay

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Be without desire, in-order to to examine the subtle; have a constant aim to examine the boundary.

where is faith in this?
ok, what you are describing (more or less correctly) is the scientific method, which is our best method for finding out what is going on.

What I was talking about is the fact that when you ask any question such as "what is a frying pan?" you embark on a chain of explanation which will have to stop at some point with "We don't know". The fact that we don't know at that point should not invalidate the chain of explanation that got you to that point, but the point at which we say "We don't know" has to be taken on faith that what we don't know will not invalidate our explanation.

Ok, now I understand what you are talking about, I agree that there is no Eternal Truth, and I can see the argument that the idea of Eternal Truth can be wielded as a weapon of oppression.
 

Jackson

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holdup I think I'm frying my own brain. I'll come back tomorrow.
 
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