[Opinion] Use of religious items

[Ziran]

I'll extend that answer.
Tallit is in two kinds. tallit gadol and tallit katan, the simplest translation is big tallit and small tallit. The big one is the one I got, it is used for prayers and is to be worn over shoulders, while praying. Small tallit is like a shirt, having hole for head, serving same purpose as big tallit but is used for wearing it all day without being impractical like the big talit would be for that task.

Starting at three, the boys begin wearing the smaller tallis, all day, Then, when married, we add the big tallis during the morning prayer service.

The aspects of the tallis which make it fit for use are the shape of the garment, and the material used to create the fringes. It's supposed to "drape like a curtain" in reference to psalm 108.

עטה אור כשלמה נוטה שמים כיריעה׃

Who covers himself with light as with a garment; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain;[/img]

The thin "scarf" shaped tallaisim used in the reform movement, are not kosher.

The commandment for the tzitzit, the fringes, is from Numbers....

15:38
דבר אל־בני ישראל ואמרת אלהם ועשו להם ציצת על־כנפי בגדיהם לדרתם ונתנו על־ציצת הכנף פתיל תכלת׃

Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a thread of blue;

15:39
והיה לכם לציצת וראיתם אתו וזכרתם את־כל־מצות יהוה ועשיתם אתם ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם אשר־אתם זנים אחריהם׃

And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them; and that you seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, which incline you to go astray;

15:40
למען תזכרו ועשיתם את־כל־מצותי והייתם קדשים לאלהיכם׃

That you may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.

​

At various points during the morning prayer service, the tzitzit, the fringes are gathered. During Baruch Sh'amar, the front two are gathered. During the Shema, all four are gathered.

As a congregation, we are dressing up as the angels and smeaking into their processional. That’s their ritual purpose, in general.​

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:27 AM

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The striped pattern is in reference to Jacob's flock, which were ringed, spotted, and mottled.


Genesis...

30:38
ויצג את־המקלות אשר פצל ברהטים בשקתות המים אשר תבאן הצאן לשתות לנכח הצאן ויחמנה בבאן לשתות׃

And he set the rods which he had peeled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

30:39
ויחמו הצאן אל־המקלות ותלדן הצאן עקדים נקדים וטלאים׃

And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle striped, ringed, and spotted.

30:40
והכשבים הפריד יעקב ויתן פני הצאן אל־עקד וכל־חום בצאן לבן וישת לו עדרים לבדו ולא שתם על־צאן לבן׃
And Jacob separated the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not among Laban’s cattle.

 

[Morell]

Cool info on the link. Thanks for it!

 

[Ziran]

The position of the stripes seperate the upper from the lower...

ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

 

[Morell]

Thinking about it, I wonder how kemetists (do I say that right?) worshipping Egyptian pantheon look at us vampires using Ankh to symbolize ourselves. There is a lot of altered ankhs versions designed by vamps, though it still keeps somehow ankh shape. (I made 2 designs myself)

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:36 PM

A lot of vamps actually wear ankh pendants... as far as I know. I wear mine for sure.

 

[Sabbatius]

No a tallis katan,

Apologies. Old slang came out there. The Katan is what I was referencing, and when attending Shabbat as a kid, we referred to the Katan as the Tzitzit and the Larger shawl, though having two design types, as the Tallit. Main reason being is that mostly one only sees the Tzitzit and not the full Katan, hence the childhood slang.

 

[cormundum]

No a tallis katan,

A Chabadsker on a magick forum? That's an interesting twist. I figured you were maybe Conservative or MO from your posts. Ba'al t'shuva or ger (returnee to the faith or convert, for those who do not know Hebrew)?

Post automatically merged: Today at 2:51 AM

Starting at three, the boys begin wearing the smaller tallis, all day, Then, when married, we add the big tallis during the morning prayer service.

The aspects of the tallis which make it fit for use are the shape of the garment, and the material used to create the fringes. It's supposed to "drape like a curtain" in reference to psalm 108.

עטה אור כשלמה נוטה שמים כיריעה׃​

​

Who covers himself with light as with a garment; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain;[/img]​

​

The thin "scarf" shaped tallaisim used in the reform movement, are not kosher.​

​

The commandment for the tzitzit, the fringes, is from Numbers....​

​

​

​

15:38​

דבר אל־בני ישראל ואמרת אלהם ועשו להם ציצת על־כנפי בגדיהם לדרתם ונתנו על־ציצת הכנף פתיל תכלת׃​

​

Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a thread of blue;​

​

15:39​

והיה לכם לציצת וראיתם אתו וזכרתם את־כל־מצות יהוה ועשיתם אתם ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם אשר־אתם זנים אחריהם׃​

​

And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them; and that you seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, which incline you to go astray;​

​

15:40​

למען תזכרו ועשיתם את־כל־מצותי והייתם קדשים לאלהיכם׃​

​

That you may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.​

​

​

​

At various points during the morning prayer service, the tzitzit, the fringes are gathered. During Baruch Sh'amar, the front two are gathered. During the Shema, all four are gathered.​

​

As a congregation, we are dressing up as the angels and smeaking into their processional. That’s their ritual purpose, in general.​

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:27 AM

If anyone is curious... ( in a code block, to prevent a rule violation... )

Please, Log in or Register to view codes content!

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:43 AM

The striped pattern is in reference to Jacob's flock, which were ringed, spotted, and mottled.


Genesis...

30:38
ויצג את־המקלות אשר פצל ברהטים בשקתות המים אשר תבאן הצאן לשתות לנכח הצאן ויחמנה בבאן לשתות׃

And he set the rods which he had peeled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

30:39
ויחמו הצאן אל־המקלות ותלדן הצאן עקדים נקדים וטלאים׃

And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle striped, ringed, and spotted.

30:40
והכשבים הפריד יעקב ויתן פני הצאן אל־עקד וכל־חום בצאן לבן וישת לו עדרים לבדו ולא שתם על־צאן לבן׃
And Jacob separated the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not among Laban’s cattle.

That's not true. The stripes are a זכר לתכילת (memory of the T'cheiles/blue string). Never heard such a thing that it was a reference to those herds.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:08 AM

When I visited Izrael, I bought myself a Talit there, linen, kosher, real thing. Not the most costly one from sheep wool (a shame). Linen, but nice, with blue stripes. It has some prayer over the strengthened collar that holds it on your shoulders. Sometimes I use it as a blanket when meditating, either when sitting, or to cover myself with it in "corpse" position.

No, I'm no Jew, not part of the people, nor the religion, but I like this specific item and its use. Though it makes me wonder, how legit is use of these things connected with specific religion... well, outside of this religion. What do you think?

I don't have a horse in this fight, but my own view is do whatever works for you. The only reason a tallis is a sacred object is because of the tzitzis (fringes). The only reason those are sacred is because they are used to fulfill the mitzvah (Divine commandment) to wear those fringes on a four-cornered garment. Since that commandment was given only to the Children of Israel 3000 some-odd years ago at Mt. Sinai, it is completely pointless for a Gentile to wear them. Doubly so now that Jesus Christ came and instituted the New Covenant and wiped away the Old.

If for some reason you accept the view Judaism takes on these things, Gentiles can gain some sort of z'chus/"merit" from fulfilling mitzvos (plural mitzvah) according to the Rambam. Though the opinion is slightly schizophrenic in that Gentiles aren't supposed to learn Torah, Jews aren't supposed to teach Gentiles Torah, and aren't really supposed to keep mitzvos since they belong to the Jews only, and Jews aren't supposed to sell Gentiles Jewish garments - which is probably a reference to tefillin and tzitzis.

So... Whatever you want to do just do it intelligently. Personally I became Christian after studying enough OT, Talmud, and Kabbalistic primary sources. Don't have any illusions that the thing itself is holy. Cool you picked one up, I guess. Without doing the Judaism thing I really don't get the point in using a tallis of any sort, gadol or katan, but you do you.

 

[Morell]

I don't have a horse in this fight, but my own view is do whatever works for you. The only reason a tallis is a sacred object is because of the tzitzis (fringes). The only reason those are sacred is because they are used to fulfill the mitzvah (Divine commandment) to wear those fringes on a four-cornered garment. Since that commandment was given only to the Children of Israel 3000 some-odd years ago at Mt. Sinai, it is completely pointless for a Gentile to wear them. Doubly so now that Jesus Christ came and instituted the New Covenant and wiped away the Old.

If for some reason you accept the view Judaism takes on these things, Gentiles can gain some sort of z'chus/"merit" from fulfilling mitzvos (plural mitzvah) according to the Rambam. Though the opinion is slightly schizophrenic in that Gentiles aren't supposed to learn Torah, Jews aren't supposed to teach Gentiles Torah, and aren't really supposed to keep mitzvos since they belong to the Jews only, and Jews aren't supposed to sell Gentiles Jewish garments - which is probably a reference to tefillin and tzitzis.

So... Whatever you want to do just do it intelligently. Personally I became Christian after studying enough OT, Talmud, and Kabbalistic primary sources. Don't have any illusions that the thing itself is holy. Cool you picked one up, I guess. Without doing the Judaism thing I really don't get the point in using a tallis of any sort, gadol or katan, but you do you.

That is nice info. Every object cam be useful if you find how to put it to use, I think. And it's fine if you don't see any use at all. I also like the note that I should be intelligent about it, rings true. And I do my best to do that. I didn't even unpack the tallit until I was away from Izrael. No need to provoke anyone after being invited to visit and I did my best to be good and peaceful guest. If there is interest, we can speak about it in different thread.

I find a use for tallit as a blanket during winter for meditating or ritual practice when I'm not moving around. (I rarely do) It feels great to have something that was actually designed for spiritual practice for this purpose.