[Opinion] Using the names of the saints in the circle as protection

[SeekerPS]

I'm making a circle in canvas, so that I can take it to me for evocation. I have used the circle that comes on the GoM books Demons of magick, but these come fused with the triangle of the art inside, so my plan is to use those GoM as Triangle of the art while having my own circle

In the first circumference I was thinking of having SANCTUS BENEDICTUS SANCTA MARTHA, SANCTUS IGNATIUS SANCTE IOSEPH

This is for the following reasons:

• Saint Benedict adversarial position against demons
• Saint Martha of Bethany is the one who tamed de dragon(demon)
• Saint Inigo whitstanded the attack of demons during his life
• Saint Joseph (Jesús's father) Is regarded as the demons Terror
• I was thinking of adding St Bartholomew/Nathaniel in account that it's said he is adversarial to Astaroth, but I would like more information on that

In the second ring there will be the names St RAPHAEL, ST GABRIEL, ST MICHAEL, ST MARIA DEI GENITRIX

pretty self explanatory but if you have questions I can answer

The final ring ADONAY TETRAGRAMMATON AGLA IESUS INRI.

Now, maybe some of you will be terrified by the changing of the names, But I think that it is more powerful to include the names of the saints and archangels I know that those of the angel's of the day Because I don't know them (or, as the kids these days say: I don't resonate with them).

Any insight is welcome, if you have done something similar I would like to hear about it

 

[gvrzil]

solomonic magick is abt negotiation, binding by pacts and respect not outright banishing and overpowering, this will absoloutely create a communication barrier with whatever you're trying to reach out to and you won't have as good of an outcome, it's gonna make the spirit feel distrusted and trapped and will reduce the chances of establishing a cooperative or mutually beneficial relationship

 

[SeekerPS]

solomonic magick is abt negotiation, binding by pacts and respect not outright banishing and overpowering, this will absoloutely create a communication barrier with whatever you're trying to reach out to and you won't have as good of an outcome, it's gonna make the spirit feel distrusted and trapped and will reduce the chances of establishing a cooperative or mutually beneficial relationship

That's an interesting opinion. why do you think saints would be less effective that the angels of the day and the season listed on the heptameron?

 

[MorganBlack]

Nice!

Not without precedent. The Germanic Faustian Tradition uses a three band circle.
Note. This tradition is super aggressive and spirit hostile and uses sulfur in their incense to command and choke the spirits.

-The first and outer band contains the names of the 72 Shem angels
-The second middle band has the opening of the Gospel of John, with pace allowing the 7 'planetary' archangels: St.s Michael, Gabriel, Raphael,
etc.
- The third circle invokes the Blood of Christ has Old and New Testament Patriarchs; Abraham. Issac, Noah, David, Samuel, along with the Four Evangelists.

UPG here, so take it as you will:

I feel we can be much nicer. You make more friends with honey rather than the stick

St. Cyprian is a qood mediator since everyone knows him. Like "Oh, you know Cyprian. eh? Well, his friends are our friends."

The Virgin in here tri-form manifestation as the Queen of Heaven, Earth, and Empress of Hell works here.

If you have not experienced how radiant, beautiful and sweet she is (and I was not even raised Catholic, nor particularly Christian ) then you can see how even the those stuck in "Hell" (read as Buddhist Hell, a state of mind become being) to experience want her presence.

FYI: In his 'Ars Rosaria: The Rosary Art of Conjuration' (from Hadean Press) Simon Dyda asks Mary to interceded with the daimons of Verum.

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Grr. Apologies. Out of time to edit. Continuing.

Technically, in the Catholic worldview, Mary wold be a saint -as the shade of a elevated dead Jewish woman - who, in my heterodox view (maybe?) manifested the Shekinah?

She was never erased from the New World magic. Anglo Saxon grim magicians are now rediscovering what people in this hemisphere, including those in Texas, California, Mexico, Brazil, and throughout Latin, Central and South America have known all along.

See David Rankine for the kinder more feminine manifestation of the Infinite, here as Shekinah who is also, I feel, Mary / Sophia / Isis / others?

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[SeekerPS]

Nice!

Not without precedent. The Germanic Faustian Tradition uses a three band circle.
Note. This tradition is super aggressive and spirit hostile and uses sulfur in their incense to command and choke the spirits.

-The first and outer band contains the names of the 72 Shem angels
-The second middle band has the opening of the Gospel of John, with pace allowing the 7 'planetary' archangels: St.s Michael, Gabriel, Raphael,
etc.
- The third circle invokes the Blood of Christ has Old and New Testament Patriarchs; Abraham. Issac, Noah, David, Samuel, along with the Four Evangelists.

UPG here, so take it as you will:

I feel we can be much nicer. You make more friends with honey rather than the stick

St. Cyprian is a qood mediator since everyone knows him. Like "Oh, you know Cyprian. eh? Well, his friends are our friends."

The Virgin in here tri-form manifestation as the Queen of Heaven, Earth, and Empress of Hell works here.

If you have not experienced how radiant, beautiful and sweet she is (and I was not even raised Catholic, nor particularly Christian ) then you can see how even the those stuck in "Hell" (read as Buddhist Hell, a state of mind become being) to experience want her presence.

FYI: In his 'Ars Rosaria: The Rosary Art of Conjuration' (from Hadean Press) Simon Dyda asks Mary to interceded with the daimons of Verum.

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Post automatically merged: Jul 7, 2025

Grr. Apologies. Out of time to edit. Continuing.

Technically, in the Catholic worldview, Mary wold be a saint -as the shade of a elevated dead Jewish woman - who, in my heterodox view (maybe?) manifested the Shekinah?

She was never erased from the New World magic. Anglo Saxon grim magicians are now rediscovering what people in this hemisphere, including those in Texas, California, Mexico, Brazil, and throughout Latin, Central and South America have known all along.

See David Rankine for the kinder more feminine manifestation of the Infinite, here as Shekinah who is also, I feel, Mary / Sophia / Isis / others?

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Ars rosaria, haven't seen that one. About the virgin Mary, the thing for me at least is that she should be more than a saint (as per Catholic tradition, she was taken to heaven while still alive), but not a deity. so, The term saint should be correct for them.

I would use sulfur only if the spirit is uncooperative, but i have lots of other good incenses (olibanum, cedar, sandalwood) to present to them when they appear.

 

[Faria]

If you want to use saints or other angels, other divine names, there is no reason you cannot. Some of the classical grimoires also do that, like the Grimoire of Armadel, and others also. Those of your own choosing are also probably fine. But learn about the process before tinkering with it.

For example, do you think that you understand the Circle and Triangle of Art? Really? From where have you gained such an understanding that makes you feel comfortable redesigning them to fit your preferences? I'm sure you think you know what you're doing, but people who have been at this a really long time still have big questions. If the answer seems easy to get, it's probably not the best answer.

Imagine that you are doing something difficult and potentially dangerous like rebuilding a car engine or compounding pharmaceuticals. If you mess it up, the results could be very bad. So even though the instructions might sound inconvenient, you don't just change them to match what you'd rather they said unless you know the whole subject inside and out.

GoM and similar books go to great lengths to "dumb down" the whole subject of the arcane. You miss the finer points when reading those, because a lot of the really important stuff is interwoven with the difficult-to-process or outright objectionable ideas. If you're reading material is designed to ignore those things, you are missing some key points that make a big difference.

 

[cormundum]

One of the most important parts of making your circle is that it reflect the universe as you believe in it/understand it, especially if you're making your own rather than just using a canned design from the grimoire you're working with. Using specifically Catholic saints, it's important to make sure that they actually resonate with you, and that you live according to their example. The names of God are just about God, Who is universal and described by different names and titles in every culture. Saints have a more culturally specific form of existence, and it is important to make sure your lived understanding of God and religion jives with theirs, more or less. Since I am a Christian practitioner of magick, I will not put Ibn-Arabi's name, or that of Mohammed, in my circle or incorporate invocations of their merits into my work; Saint Benedict, Saints Cyprian and Justina of Antioch, and Saint Peter on the other hand are fully within my purview as a Catholic so I could theoretically put their names in my circle.

 

[SeekerPS]

If you want to use saints or other angels, other divine names, there is no reason you cannot. Some of the classical grimoires also do that, like the Grimoire of Armadel, and others also. Those of your own choosing are also probably fine. But learn about the process before tinkering with it.

For example, do you think that you understand the Circle and Triangle of Art? Really? From where have you gained such an understanding that makes you feel comfortable redesigning them to fit your preferences? I'm sure you think you know what you're doing, but people who have been at this a really long time still have big questions. If the answer seems easy to get, it's probably not the best answer.

Imagine that you are doing something difficult and potentially dangerous like rebuilding a car engine or compounding pharmaceuticals. If you mess it up, the results could be very bad. So even though the instructions might sound inconvenient, you don't just change them to match what you'd rather they said unless you know the whole subject inside and out.

GoM and similar books go to great lengths to "dumb down" the whole subject of the arcane. You miss the finer points when reading those, because a lot of the really important stuff is interwoven with the difficult-to-process or outright objectionable ideas. If you're reading material is designed to ignore those things, you are missing some key points that make a big difference.

It’s stated in Lon Milo Duquette books that if the names don’t mean anything to you, then why would they mean anything for the spirit? Which makes sense because those angels of the day and seasons don’t mean much for me, they are just some names, while the others make sense, they have, traditionally, opposed demons.

I have worked with GoM with meddling results, thats why i have started tinkering more the process

 

[Faria]

It’s stated in Lon Milo Duquette books that if the names don’t mean anything to you, then why would they mean anything for the spirit?

Don't mistake publishing contracts and cult membership with knowing what you're talking about. DuQuette knows his own version of this stuff fairly well, but his version is wildly different from that of the actual grimoires and even different from Crowley whose school he represents. His experiences are mostly irrelevant. Cool guy, just not relevant. He has his reputation from being nice to people and accommodating the emerging social aspects of organized occultism, but a merciless reading of his works shows him to be mostly fluff.

Whether the names mean anything to you is irrelevant. The spirits are sworn to recognize those names and respond to whoever uses them, a curse placed upon the idols by Solomon the Wise. The divine name meanings relate to incidents in the Bible where they have context and imply that whoever is speaking them is claiming virtues related to those incidents, so that by invoking them you are pledging to stand behind the virtues they represent. You can of course do that in other ways and with other non-Kabbalistic names or words, but it's those pledges the spirits respect and not the names themselves. Changing the names to omit the commitment aspect of it is not streamlining the ritual, but destroying it.

My suggestion is to find something that you can use more or less intact rather than trying to rebuild the whole thing from scratch or turning the whole thing into a fill-in-the-blanks exercise. If you pick and choose you will spend the next 10 years trying to innovate new rituals to redefine the whole thing. Save yourself some trouble and find something you don't fully like and just work with it until you live & breathe it even if you hate it, because the point is not to have a ritual that corresponds to who you are, but to have the rewards and knowledge that spirit conjuring ought to provide. If you have to invoke something you can barely pronounce and don't really believe exists just to get that, swallow your pride and just do it, you will get where you want to go a lot faster.

Which makes sense because those angels of the day and seasons don’t mean much for me, they are just some names, while the others make sense, they have, traditionally, opposed demons.

They are "just some names" for everyone, including the author of the original grimoire that used them. That's sort of the point of them being in a grimoire, it's secret stuff that isn't part of your regular knowledge or experience, but a separate sidebar system that simultaneously touches both what you know and what you don't. Maybe you don't recognize angel so-and-so, but are you so much more familiar with demon so-and-so that you are going to keep its name and seal intact but exchange the angel for one you like better? If you are going to ditch one side of the equation for being out of your wheelhouse, fine, but do the same to the other side of the equation too.

 

[SeekerPS]

Whether the names mean anything to you is irrelevant. The spirits are sworn to recognize those names and respond to whoever uses them, a curse placed upon the idols by Solomon the Wise. The divine name meanings relate to incidents in the Bible where they have context and imply that whoever is speaking them is claiming virtues related to those incidents

Well lets analyze primeumaton

Primeumaton comes from the Magical greek papyri. Its meaning its close to the original principle of the universe

Its a greek Word. So we can confidently say that Aarón, moses follower, probably never knew that word and never spoke it to become wise.

Does Primeumaton can accomodate to the name of God? Well yes. Does it make sense how it is presented on the grimoire? Of course not!

 

[MorganBlack]

Good stuff guys, but why do these discussions become so heated or pointed every very time Catholicism or Christianity comes up?

You have quantum atheists screaming it's all just in your head, the "pagan" practitioners (from the lost tribe of Ancient Paganistan, I guess) yelling how the demons are all "really" pagan gods", and Catholics or Folk Catholics who act like it's a closed practice.

The Catholic saints will work with you even if you are not Catholic. But in turn please respect them and do not turn them into New Age "energies " or try to update the Catholic prayers. Well, do as you wish but if you called Shiva or Ganesh you wouldn't use Enochian out of cultural respect.

I don't think you can just decide what myth you are living though intellectual means. You have to take the mythic ride though mystical prayer, attention, and observation until they are alive for you, then you can use them in sublunar evocation rituals.

I did not intend to be one, but I'm a Folk Catholic (if a very liberal and weird one) becasue I had what the Church might call an 'Apparition of Mary' appear to me in what was one of the most powerful spiritual expediences I've ever had. You dance with the one who brought ya. This was after years of very mechanically saying the Our Father and Hail Mary in honor of my hougan, and my Mexican ancestors.

She will manifest as a pervasive odor of citrus and roses that I and other people can smell. I feel her as a sweetness, that will attenuate over two weeks if i stop saying the prayers. I also do not argue with Orthodox Catholics over what she "really" is, as if I could know.

I have also worked Verum in the "pagan" framework of JSK, which I also highly recommend.

 

[Faria]

Well lets analyze primeumaton

Primeumaton comes from the Magical greek papyri. Its meaning its close to the original principle of the universe

Its a greek Word. So we can confidently say that Aarón, moses follower, probably never knew that word and never spoke it to become wise.

Does Primeumaton can accomodate to the name of God? Well yes. Does it make sense how it is presented on the grimoire? Of course not!

It is very likely that Aaron, Solomon, and other Biblical figures did not exist. There isn't a single shred of evidence for the existence of either of those two, at least. So they didn't know Greek or Hebrew or anything because they're not real people. Same goes for almost any other religious figure ever from almost any religion. Doesn't matter.

The Bible was originally written in Greek, all the Jewish scriptures were Greek. There are fragmentary scriptures in Hebrew from around the time of Diocletian that were discovered just a few years ago, but most of the Hebrew Torah is medieval. Gunpowder, eyeglasses, and movable type existed for centuries before anyone ever read the Torah in Hebrew. It is arguable that Kabbalah and the bulk of Jewish mysticism is just a version of Greek philosophy.

Primeumaton might be πνεῦματον or it might be the First Cause, or other interpretations. Aaron being made wise refers to a specific incident in which Aaron is confirmed as High Priest and his lineage secured as the hereditary priesthood, and at least one grimoire fleshes out that phrase with the rest of the story. Again, open to interpretation, but it might be said that to invoke that name respects the Creator as the origin of the powers behind priesthood and rituals, instead of someone's personal input or qualifications.

 

[Sabbatius]

The Bible was originally written in Greek, all the Jewish scriptures were Greek. There are fragmentary scriptures in Hebrew from around the time of Diocletian that were discovered just a few years ago, but most of the Hebrew Torah is medieval.

There are some silver scrolls about 3,000 years old that may disagree with your hypothesis.
There are also some Proto-Hebrew texts of Torah found in Phoenician writings that also may disagree with your hypothesis.

Yes, the Septuagint copied the Hebrew texts into Greek. There are multiple copies of the Septuagint that were discovered over the centuries, even as far as China. However, the original Hebrew manuscripts, much of which were destroyed by violence sadly, were constantly being copied and rewritten due to their practices of Mitzvot. Texts that are damaged are to be copied onto fresh parchment and the damaged copy is ritually destroyed.

The one unique factor to the Hebrew texts is that the newest documentation is literally a precise copy of the oldest document. Hebrew practice literally makes it the People of the Book.

 

[cormundum]

There are some silver scrolls about 3,000 years old that may disagree with your hypothesis.
There are also some Proto-Hebrew texts of Torah found in Phoenician writings that also may disagree with your hypothesis.

Yes, the Septuagint copied the Hebrew texts into Greek. There are multiple copies of the Septuagint that were discovered over the centuries, even as far as China. However, the original Hebrew manuscripts, much of which were destroyed by violence sadly, were constantly being copied and rewritten due to their practices of Mitzvot. Texts that are damaged are to be copied onto fresh parchment and the damaged copy is ritually destroyed.

The one unique factor to the Hebrew texts is that the newest documentation is literally a precise copy of the oldest document. Hebrew practice literally makes it the People of the Book.

These supposed "mitzvot" practices you invoke are post-Talmudic, which means they weren't instituted til about AD 600, well after the life of Christ. Most Talmudic rules weren't even followed as Jewish law until really late in the scheme of things, well after Maimonides, who was a contemporary of Thomas Aquinas, which was about 11th/12th century. We have no intact copies of the entirety of the Torah in Hebrew that are more antique than the oldest extant copies of the Septuagint. There is absolutely zero proof that the Masoretic text is the original Old Testament/Tanakh. Nil.

 

[Yazata]

The spirits are sworn to recognize those names and respond to whoever uses them, a curse placed upon the idols by Solomon the Wise

It is very likely that Aaron, Solomon, and other Biblical figures did not exist. There isn't a single shred of evidence for the existence of either of those two, at least

If you believe both these things, then why would it matter if she uses other names?

 

[Faria]

If you believe both these things, then why would it matter if she uses other names?

Some overlooked portion of a ritual or an obscure name will, after a while, become known and explained so that it fits perfectly within its system. If a person dismantles everything from the start, those things are never discovered and they get a reflection of their own opinions.

And as I've said from he beginning, go ahead and use names of saints as some others already do, but dont just plug them in where you found other names you don't want there. If you want to do your own thing, do your own thing the whole way and don't try to import demon names and summoning triangles, but build the whole thing from your own work.

Personally, I believe that the typical demon conjuring affair depends on pacts or covenants like most things in the Bible, and that somewhere along the line maybe 1200 years ago someone (or many someones) set up this arrangement whereby the spirits answer to such and such devices and words and other ritual gestures. From that point on, in part or whole, the spirits are responsible for answering to those things. I dont think name X naturally has any power over anything, but it appears so as a consequence of a spiritual covenant in which people partake by performing the rites.

 

[MorganBlack]

Faria, if i understand what you're saying, I agree.

My 2 cents. And how i look at it.

To unpack the various nomina magicae and god-names, which i get peole feel strongly about, I think we should separate out the ritual acts of evocation from operative mythic frameworks.

Magic is a broken tradition, and I think part of what makes a ritual come alive are some sort of quantum archetype of the ritual itself (for lack of a better phrase of the 'Magician in the Midst of Magic'). When you do the "usual things" (whatever they are) it forms a ritual language that more and more establishes an inter-dimensional diplomatic agency.

The work of Dr. Skinner and David Rankine helping us piece the missing elements and structure of trad evocation. We have gone a long way from just opening with G.D. LBRP's in the 1990's . We might think of the acts of evocation as making a a radio. It will still work if parts are missing, but it works better more of the radio being used. I also feel a lot of modern magic additions are there to sort of duct-tape in parts that were not in the original rites to juice them up. They do have value, but we may need fewer of them as we re-discover more of the ritual technology of evocation.

In terms of the "Operative Myth" as i think of it, almost, but not everything will do. If you're Jewish then Solomon is the Archetype of the magician , who represent the authority of his people. In more cosmopolitan times, without tribes, we are much more individualistic and the myths may need to change for us.

I have to place ourselves into the story. The universe is made of stories.

Gordon White talks about indigenous shamanic understand: ritual acts and offerings must be mythologized for them to even become visible to the spirits . I think this applies to all of our ritual acts. It's like there is a membrane between worlds so that our intentions have to be translated into symbolic actions. I don't think the specific religion is 100% important, a long as they mirror universal mythic patterns. Use whatever you wish, but it's the mythic archetypal carrier signal sort that makes our actions, words, and offering visible to the thought-beings (daimons / spirits) .

--------
UPG here, I have noticed the spirits do not respond to all names. The "Abrahamic" names, they know. Hecate, the PGM names, they know. Cyprian too. Dunno why. Maybe becasue they were around when then forms of the Arte were being established in ancient Alexandria, and then millions of people were using these names over centuries. I cannot say. but I doubt one could call them using the D.C comic character John Constantine, as much as he is my fav chaos magic godform for the magician. But he might, if only because he's based on the classic archetype of the trickster magician, if a very flawed one.

I also think "pacts", especially those in the Faustian tradition , are what you see when looking at the usual shamanic human-spirit relationships, but as understood within a more Christian mythic framework.

 

[SeekerPS]

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This is the final circle, gonna make it print in canvas soon.

 

[Sabbatius]

These supposed "mitzvot" practices you invoke are post-Talmudic, which means they weren't instituted til about AD 600, well after the life of Christ. Most Talmudic rules weren't even followed as Jewish law until really late in the scheme of things, well after Maimonides, who was a contemporary of Thomas Aquinas, which was about 11th/12th century. We have no intact copies of the entirety of the Torah in Hebrew that are more antique than the oldest extant copies of the Septuagint. There is absolutely zero proof that the Masoretic text is the original Old Testament/Tanakh. Nil.

You are correct that there is no intact Tanakh earlier than the Leningrad Codex. The Masoretic text is a hodge~podge of displaced Hebrew texts placed into a collection to show the complete work and even then it requires the Septuagint to act as a guide of what needs to be placed.

However, as far as what is discovered by archaeologists today, usually in pieces of a text or a portion thereof, it coincides with what is already in place now which is consistent. The critique of consistency in what is uncovered textually, whether in scroll or inscribed on objects is incredible.

And I agree with you that Rabbinic Judaism, Chassidism in particular is a new construction, beginning in the late Medieval era, including its interpretation of Talmudic practices. It is a shame that much of the older texts are destroyed/buried.

Overall, I agree. However, the history is showing consistency to what is lacking. Personally, I prefer the Septuagint.

 

[Drezuli]

Using the saints like that in a circle sounds weird. They're not associated with directions and elements like our typical circles, and thr ATRs, which are synchronized with saints, don't call upon them like that.

It sounds too needy and clingy. Just let the angels and the elemental kings do their jobs.