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What are your views on hell?

Ohana

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to me hell is a place to contain, not so much to torture, not where demons live. It does not contain sin, but contains threats.
That raises a lot more questions. Like if its just a place to contain "threats" then are they ever released? Is it like spirtual version of jail then? Who does the sentencing? Are they affect by biases? Are they impartial? Is it decided by your peers? A lot of questions

But if both places do exist are people up there affected by guilt for getting not "contained"? I wouldn't want to go to either and given the choice I would reincarnate.

Horus = The Overworld Hero
Christ = The Underworld Hero

They represent a sort of Yin-Yang dynamic in the cosmos, as articulated by The Book of the Law and decoded by the English Qaballa. Both have their place.
They kind of sound like soul mates but not in the traditional romantic sense of the word. More in the literal sense of being both parts of the soul. Or I guess mates of the soul.
This is from The Magickal Language of the Book of the Law by Cath Thompson, which I highly recommend for an Thelemic reading of Chris, especially within the context 'defeating' Hell through Love.

Jesus is mentioned in Liber AL is in Ch. III v.51,
“I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.”
This kind of seems like symbolism for love is blind? With a bird asscoiated god pecking at the what some see as a symbol of compassion.

Also similar to the prometheus legend which prometheus would get hassled by an eagle/bird daily. But this time the bird is falcon.
Hmmm ... do they ? To me they kind of sound like deep philosophical musings from one of humanity's classic books on the subject ... also taken from two perspectives (as there are two versions of the story ; Marlow and Goethe .
In that view I could see them as the main characters for play Waiting for Godot. Or Rosencratz and Guildenstern from Rosencratz and Guildenstern are dead.
 

Firetree

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Why keep seeing them as things they are not ?

They represent the human dynamic and the classic of the age ; it even has a modern lesson ; Faust is Man and Mephistopheles is technology ; man makes a sellout deal with technology , seemingly ignoring the consequences ... oh yeah, he gets all these material benefits ... but at what cost ? One is , the cost of his 'soul ' .

And if you dont know what 'loosing your soul' can mean in the modern world ; try doing a 10 hr day factory job that you hate , does not inspire you and makes you feel you not getting anywhere . . . except as a flesh and bone automaton .

For some that is 'a hell' .
 
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That raises a lot more questions. Like if its just a place to contain "threats" then are they ever released? Is it like spirtual version of jail then? Who does the sentencing? Are they affect by biases? Are they impartial? Is it decided by your peers? A lot of questions

But if both places do exist are people up there affected by guilt for getting not "contained"? I wouldn't want to go to either and given the choice I would reincarnate.
If someone can be stopped without getting killed they get put there to cool off in a manner of saying. There are powerful beings that will just destroy everything in their path or have too much rage or hatred that they would genocide something, so in the case where they can be saved, they get put there first.

That is why putting demons in hell, they always escape because they arent strong and arent a threat.

Anyone can use hell, but the rules matter in what gets kept there.
 

Ohana

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That is why putting demons in hell, they always escape because they arent strong and arent a threat.

Anyone can use hell, but the rules matter in what gets kept there.
Hmm the cooling off manner sounds okay. I think anyone entity or person going through that needs therapy or rehabilitatative services and I know how some systems which mean to "temporarily" contain can become focused on permanent containment when not focused on rehabilitation.

When they give up on rehabilitation. When they stop even trying.

Apologies if that seemed accusatory I just don't have a lot of trust in much of anything anymore.
 
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Hmm the cooling off manner sounds okay. I think anyone entity or person going through that needs therapy or rehabilitatative services and I know how some systems which mean to "temporarily" contain can become focused on permanent containment when not focused on rehabilitation.

When they give up on rehabilitation. When they stop even trying.

Apologies if that seemed accusatory I just don't have a lot of trust in much of anything anymore.
thats the human occult experience for you, its very different if you learnt from a different source. Its usually why i suggest angels because i know them. I'd suggest dragons too but i really dont know where to start with the "how to for beginners" guide for them.
 

MorganBlack

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More in the literal sense of being both parts of the soul.
Why keep seeing them as things they are not ?
They represent the human dynamic and the classic of the age ;

Damn, ya'll! This is a huge issue in so many ways. Lemme add it is both valid to personalize myths - to find the myth in you own life, and to focus on the Little Story. But it also range-limits you. (Not saying you are doing this, btw, Ohana!)

But taken too far, to reify the Little Story and puff it up, is what holy wars and religions wars do. To see their little story write large and ego-inflate themselves to cosmic dimensions and become a legend in their own minds. Jung would wag his finger here at them. WitchTokers do the same when they cheer on burning Catholic churches. They totally miss the point of all of this.

The real magic (on the more mystical side of the spectrum here) happens, in my view, as I think Firtee is suggesting here, when you see yourself reflected in the Big Story so you rise to become part of the Big Story - not in forcing too much the Big Story down into tight little boxes of ego and self-gratification. Again see Jung for why that is very bad. So "Hell" should be part of the Big Story to overcome Hell, not wallow in it and cheer on. The WitchToker religious hatred and violence and pursuit of the continuation of suffering should be a case study for how to use these stories very, very badly.

This is going off-topic a little, but sinvce we're talking about how to interpret mythic stories and the characters therein, and since I roped in Thelema and Horus into the conversation in reference to Christ's Harrowing of Hell as mirror-image modalities:

One is free to interpret The Book of the Law however your soul leads you to. But I will say, when seen with EQ, it operates within a highly sophisticated cosmoligcal vision of astro-theology.

Thelema itself is also highly flexible and forgiving regarding how each person wants to interpret the Mystery Play. In Thelema one is free to interpret "the gods" more as Crowley suggested they are, as mathematical formulas in the universe rather than daimons or spirits. They form "formulas for intitation."

Thelema, partually as seent though the number symbolism of the EQ reveals a high-sophisticated atro-theoology. Astro-theology is many orders of magnitited greater than the simplistic sun-sign astrology of the newspapers, where it’s more like a party game of 'Hi, I’m a Cancer. What is your sun Sign?' Here is more about seeing great mythic cycles at play in the universe that we can align with.

The real brothers, according to EQ, are Horus and Set-Typhon, who 'sit' at the gate of the universe and both create/destroy it. In my view, the universe is being created and destroyed many times every second, rather like the flickering of a movie projector. Without destruction, there is no Time and no Movement. But that is my reading of it.

For more of the sophisticated vision of the Universe that The Book of the Law (maybe) operate within see:

I also do not like making 'unassailable' truth statements, but I will say that contemplating this vision I had a sublime, ecstatic experience where I was in pure bliss and happiness for three whole days. Maybe the Book of the Law really is a mind-virus that rewrites your brain, which I would say is true of all myths. Just beware how you use them. You will evetually live the myths you engage with. So pick a heathy version of them, including the myths around Hell.
 
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"Why, this is Hell, nor am I out of it"

"The mind is its own place, and in it self
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less then he
Whom Thunder hath made greater?"

Hell, as most monotheists understand it, is pretty much an accumulation of literary fan-fictions over the last thousand years or so. The core texts mostly operate from the bog-standard Mediterranean/Mesopotamian "land of fading shades" theory of an afterlife; you die, your spirit hangs around for a while in a depressing misty land under the ground, and then you fade into shadows as the living forget your name and stop offering to you. It's mostly philosophers and poets with too much time on their hands and some kind of axe to grind who come up with theories of eternal suffering for the wicked and blissful heavens for the holy.
As practitioners, we should work with what is: Folks die, and something remains. What it is matters much less than what it can do for us, and what we can do for it and why.
 

Ohana

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Damn, ya'll! This is a huge issue in so many ways. Lemme add it is both valid to personalize myths - to find the myth in you own life, and to focus on the Little Story. But it also range-limits you. (Not saying you are doing this, btw, Ohana!)

But taken too far, to reify the Little Story and puff it up, is what holy wars and religions wars do. To see their little story write large and ego-inflate themselves.
I don't think that going to be a problem for me. I might have to Little Story it more. My self esteem is so low it reaches to planes of non-existence.

Despite what I put out here. I tend to 'Big' story a lot so 'Little' storying myth might balance me for a while.

Its so low. I see myself and I go why.
This is going off-topic a little, but sinvce we're talking about how to interpret mythic stories and the characters therein, and since I roped in Thelema and Horus into the conversation in reference to Christ's Harrowing of Hell as mirror-image modalities:

One is free to interpret The Book of the Law however your soul leads you to. But I will say, when seen with EQ, it operates within a highly sophisticated cosmoligcal vision of astro-theology.

Thelema itself is also highly flexible and forgiving regarding how each person wants to interpret the Mystery Play
The Mystery Play. I'm so tired of plays. I'm so tired of stories. I'm so tired but I trudge on. In hopes of what? A page to fill?

To me hell is having to write your own story and then direct it. And then no one sees the vision. The art of what your trying to do. The message of the story. That is hell.
The real brothers, according to EQ, are Horus and Set-Typhon, who 'sit' at the gate of the universe and both create/destroy it. In my view, the universe is being created and destroyed many times every second, rather like the flickering of a motion picture
Horus and Set-Typhon can also be uncle and nephew. The classic trope of nephew disliking uncle.

That view does make sense because thats how film works so maybe theres some truth to that.

Why keep seeing them as things they are not ?

They represent the human dynamic and the classic of the age ; it even has a modern lesson ; Faust is Man and Mephistopheles is technology ; man makes a sellout deal with technology , seemingly ignoring the consequences ... oh yeah, he gets all these material benefits ... but at what cost ? One is , the cost of his 'soul ' .
To me that is what they are or what I think they are. Kind of. To deny sharing my own perspective or thinking in my own perspective would be to go on an endless loop of self denial.

A type of hell to deny what your like as a person.

I don't want to do that. Mephistoles and Faust are technically a story. Stories can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

I do not deny that is your perspective or that perspective might hold more weight. But I hold my own perspective for this story shaped by my own expierences.
And if you dont know what 'loosing your soul' can mean in the modern world ; try doing a 10 hr day factory job that you hate ,
I agree that 'losing your soul' can hold connations such as living a lifestyle that has no meaning to it. An example being a factory job that goes nowhere that takes up all your time.

That does sound like a type of hell. A hell of having to deny yourself and to be just a machine with no thoughts nor feelings of your own.
 

Robert Ramsay

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Hell is the material plane we currently live in.
"Come to Hell; we have cookies!"

I don't believe in Hell as an actual place, but as with most things in magic, whatever you believe about it, that's the direction you'll be driving in, unless you take steps to avoid it.
 

MorganBlack

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Sartre said, "Hell is other people."

Joking aside, there is no escape from "Hell" in paganism, and is some cases, like Buddhism, the cosmological vision is much more bleak. There you are much more likely to be re-born in a ghost world, animal world, or hell world rather than this human one again. Yeesh.

"Hell" in Catholicism is very close to the better take in the Orphic vision. Personally, I don't believe in life after death because, in my view, we never left and are "having" a temporary reality inside high- fidelity MMO game called "Earth" (beautiful , yes, with some serious game design flaws. ) where we are supposed to be having fun - in a construct made by having a physical brain. Personal take aside...

In many cultures the postmortem experience is understood as traumatic, with you being assailed by all sorts of critters. In Orphism, the goal is to make your soul light, like fire and air, so it rises to the better part of the "afterlife" and does not sink, like water and earth weighed it down with their version of Original Sin - the "soot" of the Titans into the bad part of the Underworld, Tartarus.

The Orphic Underworld in the Derveni Manuscript, our oldest existing European manuscript, suggests that Hades is actually the air or the "unseen" realm surrounding us, where souls dwell immediately after death. It is not necessarily "down," but "other." The Erinyes (the Furies) are described as entities who exact justice. Justice, Dike, is a cosmic law of re-balancing. Orphism says the soul is "heavy" with the soot of the Titanic crime and the dismemberment of Dionysus. The Orphic "Hell" is often the cycle of rebirth itself. The real "Hell" is being sent back into a body, a "tomb."
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My self esteem is so low it reaches to planes of non-existence.
Its so low. I see myself and I go why.

Oh, l just wanted to add , I'm sorry you're having a rough spot of it, Ohana. Hang in there!

It's very much a 'guy-thing' to want to try to 'fix things' - so I hope this is taken the spirit of sympathy it's intended. May I recommend the '30-Day Mental Challenge' to turn down any internal suffering- no gods, demons, angels, spirits or afterlife required. Book – EPUB/MOBI - Mitch Horowitz - '30-Day Mental Challenge'
 
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