[Opinion] What defines "quality"?

[Nagaram]

Recently, I was at the liquor store looking for wines, when a woman with an interesting accent came in and was asking the floor sales people for recommendations on "quality red wine for cheap" because she was making a lot of elixirs.

I, though sympathetic, offered no assistance despite being fairly versed in my opinions on red wine because, I don't really know what "quality" red wine means for our uses.

My favorite wines are cheap sweet wines. I have no real interest in becoming a sommelier or even in just "getting into" wines because I'm more of a beer person. But to me a "quality" wine is an archaic word. It probably means something that is pure grape liquor or as close to it as possible. Wine without additives or extra water to dilute it or even to mask a bad batch of vinegary wine. I am considering that throughout human history, the easier wine to get would be this tier of commoner slop.

Though, I could see an argument made that, for magickal purposes, wine that has had more intent and attention poured into it is better than the new tier of commoner slop that is my $5 wines.

So, I guess the question is, what is the threshold of "quality" with which we do magick? Can this be applied to all reagents in ritual? What do you think?

 

[unholyReverie]

So, I guess the question is, what is the threshold of "quality" with which we do magick? Can this be applied to all reagents in ritual? What do you think?

I guess I can see "quality" having a few possible senses here.

First, if a person is crafting an "elixir", I would guess the concern could be one or more of the following: wanting pure ingredients (no fillers, as you yourself alluded to, which might or might not have any physical or non-physical impact), wanting something that will taste good, and wanting something that will last when mixed and rebottled. As "not a wine person", you may not realize, but most wine you find on the shelf is not meant to be further aged. I do not remember the chemistry / botony behind it, but only the highest tiers of wine, and mostly red wines (whites do not hold up as well), can be cellared for extended periods of time while retaining or even improving their flavor.

On the other hand, if a person where using a wine as part of an offering, one might be attending to quality in the interest of showing proper respect. Even if you find $5 wines tasty, you still probably would not make a gift of one, unless you were truly destitute. Part of an offering is the significance and sacrifice entailed in offering, not simply the substance of what it is.

 

[giusma]

“Quality” in magic, and in my personal opinion, doesn’t mean expensive or chemically pure.
It means three simple things 1, that it’s something authentic (not something you perceive as fake or degraded),
2. that you have some kind of connection to it, 3. that it’s chosen with intention, not randomly.
A cheap bottle you genuinely like works better than a “proper” wine you feel nothing for.
The point isn’t the price, it’s the relationship and this applies to everything in ritual, not just wine.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I believe that "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is mostly about what quality is and how hard to define it is

 

[Durward]

because she was making a lot of elixirs.

So, I guess the question is, what is the threshold of "quality" with which we do magick? Can this be applied to all reagents in ritual? What do you think?

Any red wine, quality or not, starts to turn 3 to 5 days after opening. Refrigeration can slow that down. This turning wine won't likely kill you, but it does go sour and starts to taste pretty bad.
I make my own elixirs, and I just don't make an elixir from wine unless I want a bad bowel adult diaper day down the road. If you further dilute that minimal alcohol content that wine has, the duration it remains stable and healthy decreases dramatically.
To make an elixir, the premium choice is to use 80 to 100 proof alcohol, which is then partially diluted down by the other ingredients, and adds to the extraction of the ingredients you want in your elixir. An elixir is all about concentrating parts of the ingredients you put in it. If you wanted to add some red wine to that for flavor or antioxidants, you pick the darkest like Sirah, because of the tannin content, or something sweet for flavor. Sure, there are likely things in modern wine that you don't want in your elixir, which is why I just don't use them.
I had to laugh when they had these fancy wine sommeliers at a tasting and gave them cheap wine and expensive wine, and they seriously couldn't tell much difference or guess that one of them was the cheap stuff. So there is that kind of placebo bias going down as well.

My two favorite things for low-level elixirs are Ginger and Garlic. About 2 tablespoons of real ginger root, peeled and shaved down with a grater, put it into a large mason jar, fill with gin (or your choice of ~40% alcohol), close it and shake daily for a week, and enjoy in moderation. For garlic you only need about 4 good sized cloves, which are mashed/smashed and thrown in whole. Mashing them fresh right before use is important for a proper tonic. Same booze, same type of jar, same shaking process. You then filter out the raw ingredients after a week or two. These keep for a very long time. However, these are not true extract types of elixirs because the alcohol level is a bit weak for extreme extraction of herbals.
The quality here would be how clear of debris I can get my elixir, and how concentrated the extracts end up. They are certainly not about flavor, since most elixirs will make your toenails curl up and die. But they are a very fine and simple way to get the chemistry out of the plants and into a concentrated form that can be used to benefit your health or treat ailments. Once you have an elixir that is potent, nothing stops you from adding a few drops to your glass of wine for whatever reason.
So @Nagaram, she is likely giving someone a stomach ache or worse by making crappy excuses for elixirs with ingredients that spoil. Nothing quality about that. Good thing you steered clear of it.
I ass-u-me that quality of magic is the same for a large percentage, with a lot of people crapping their pants because they weren't informed properly, nor did they bother to learn how to do things before jumping in. People like shortcuts and wive's tales, and will poison themselves with a smile on their faces. Anything quick and convenient, as long as there is no actual work or skill required. Add the bias problem, where people think they can select what skill set they want to learn, instead of figuring out what flavor they actually resonate with, and you end up with a bunch of people who will always be disappointed.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Recently, I was at the liquor store looking for wines, when a woman with an interesting accent came in and was asking the floor sales people for recommendations on "quality red wine for cheap" because she was making a lot of elixirs.

I, though sympathetic, offered no assistance despite being fairly versed in my opinions on red wine because, I don't really know what "quality" red wine means for our uses.

My favorite wines are cheap sweet wines. I have no real interest in becoming a sommelier or even in just "getting into" wines because I'm more of a beer person. But to me a "quality" wine is an archaic word. It probably means something that is pure grape liquor or as close to it as possible. Wine without additives or extra water to dilute it or even to mask a bad batch of vinegary wine. I am considering that throughout human history, the easier wine to get would be this tier of commoner slop.

Though, I could see an argument made that, for magickal purposes, wine that has had more intent and attention poured into it is better than the new tier of commoner slop that is my $5 wines.

So, I guess the question is, what is the threshold of "quality" with which we do magick? Can this be applied to all reagents in ritual? What do you think?

Well, my definition of quality should apply to all products, in my opinion.

A quality product should be made with obsessive care for the process and with an enjoyment for the the work and ritual of creating it. A product that someone put their heart and soul into creating is almost always the better one.

So, for wine. I want the same soul put into the process of making it as an italian home cook puts into making the best pasta sauce for his family. (Stereotype, i know. Ive never been to Italy)

 

[saber]

I think it boils down to "would I recommend this thing to someone else"
Choosing out something you would recommend means that the quality of the item reflects on yourself and your tastes, which makes it more personal and meaningful when you use it in a magical operation.
If I drink a wine and I dislike it, I'm not going to use it for an offering or as a magical reagent, even if it is an expensive wine.

Even if you find $5 wines tasty, you still probably would not make a gift of one, unless you were truly destitute.

I think even a cheap wine could be used as an offering as long as you exercise care in choosing one out, but that heavily depends on the spirit's preferences, so check with them first before you do that.