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[Opinion] What if... Goetia = Enochian?

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Mart

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I have this controversial theory, not really based in any facts or experience, just arising from my ponderings...
What if the entities in Goetic and Enochian magick are the same ones?
My train of thought is this - we know that both of these systems were supposedly taught by the spirits to humans.
We also know that some spirits often play tricks and can pretend to be "angels" or "demons", this wouldn't be a huge deal for them.
What if the entities that established connection to Dee and the ones that established connection to Solomon were the same?
Or just from the "same pot" if you will?
Supposedly, Solomon captured the spirits and forced them into submission somehow, preventing them from lying.
If that's really the case then perhaps they were being truthful in the case of Goetia and were pretending to be "angels" when interacting with Dee?
What's your angle on this? Please share your thoughts, experiences, findings... anything.
 

The God-King

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Hmm, I'm no Enochian expert but from what I know of Enochian the Enochian entities are supposedly the beings of creation. The ones that actually carried out the task of creating the universe when God spoke it into existence. This would put them above the Goetic spirits in terms of rank and power. Also, I may be misremembering but I can't seem to recall any Enochian entities that rule over specific things, whereas the Goetics rule over specific human affairs such as love, money, political power, prestige, knowledge, etc.
 

Mart

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That's interesting.. but wouldn't it be possible at least in theory, that the spirits might be pretending to be more or less limited depending on what is expected of them? There was also an interesting thread by Moloch that I've archived a while ago here. Kinda makes me wonder if the spirits might be playing everyone to some unknown porpose of theirs...
 

The God-King

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That's interesting.. but wouldn't it be possible at least in theory, that the spirits might be pretending to be more or less limited depending on what is expected of them? There was also an interesting thread by Moloch that I've archived a while ago here. Kinda makes me wonder if the spirits might be playing everyone to some unknown porpose of theirs...
I don't know enough about Enochian to say whether or not those spirits could be playing us, but due to the Triangle of Art and other countermeasures, I don't believe Goetics are playing us. And to what end (for Enochian)? Well, nvm, I guess the end result would be attention from us which gives them a bit of energy and then actual offerings and sacrifices which gives them an immense amount of energy and power to utilize.
 

Mart

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I'm gonna go even further and ask another question - what if the triangle of art doesn't really do what we think it's supposed to? What if it was meant as a false sense of security and the entities are playing along? Is there really anything that can be used to reject this possibility completely?
 

The God-King

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I'm gonna go even further and ask another question - what if the triangle of art doesn't really do what we think it's supposed to? What if it was meant as a false sense of security and the entities are playing along? Is there really anything that can be used to reject this possibility completely?
Interesting. I would say, though, the only way one would think this is if they don't understand the Names and symbolism (if any depending on the grimoire used) on and/or around the Triangle. Studying these things would require further reading beyond the basics of the Goetia or the Key of Solomon. But even in the Goetia; while some versions say "Solomon commanded evil spirits into the brazen vessel" others say "Solomon commanded the disobedient spirits into the brazen vessel" (see Francis King's text "Magic: The Western Tradition" for reference and the latter version of Solomon's Triangle). Disobedient includes lying as well as being unruly, foul mouthed, ugly countenance or appearance, smell, etc.
 

The God-King

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Interesting experiment I just thought of (though I'm sure someone, somewhere, has thought of it). Why not try contacting Enochian spirits using Grim Trad methods and try evoking Grim Trad spirits using the Enochian system. Compare results
 

Mart

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Interesting experiment I just thought of (though I'm sure someone, somewhere, has thought of it). Why not try contacting Enochian spirits using Grim Trad methods and try evoking Grim Trad spirits using the Enochian system. Compare results
That would certainly be an interesting experiment :unsure: Actually it was on my mind I think, but I've forgotten that thought :D
 

Mart

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So far my research of Goetia has been very brief, so i'm only familiar with Tetragrammaton.
 

The God-King

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So far my research of Goetia has been very brief, so i'm only familiar with Tetragrammaton.
Grim Trad is a vast well and Goetia is just the beginning. Rather than specific books I'll recommend some authors to take a look at
  • Stephen Skinner
  • David Rankine
  • Jake Stratton-Kent
  • Lon Milo Duquette
  • Joe Petersen
  • Rufus Opus
  • Michael Cecchetelli
  • Franz Bardon
  • Francis Barrett
 

Mart

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Thanks, this will be useful for research. I'm somewhat familiar with David Rankine and Bardon, not so much the other ones..
 

Lemongrass00

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Interesting experiment I just thought of (though I'm sure someone, somewhere, has thought of it). Why not try contacting Enochian spirits using Grim Trad methods and try evoking Grim Trad spirits using the Enochian system. Compare results
Are Grim Trad spirits just demons? One of the worries I had with Enochian is that if it is the angelic language that all angels, whether divine or fallen could answer and mislead us. I do not know too much about either system either but it would make sense demons could answer Enochian rituals as they are fallen angels.
 

The God-King

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Are Grim Trad spirits just demons? One of the worries I had with Enochian is that if it is the angelic language that all angels, whether divine or fallen could answer and mislead us. I do not know too much about either system either but it would make sense demons could answer Enochian rituals as they are fallen angels.
No. But demons are the most popular type of spirit called upon in Grim Trad. First let me say that I have not read every single Grim Trad text but in general, these are the spirits utilized in Grim Trad:

  • Angels
  • Demons
  • Elementals
  • Planetary
  • Aerial
  • Spherical
  • Genius Loci (includes all land spirits that aren't Elementals)
  • The Dead
Special mention to the Luminaries of Gnosticism but most would probably categorize them as angels.
 
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Given that Enochian is much more difficult for people to do safely than Goetia is, (at least from what I understand, as I've heard of way more people pulling off the latter) I have my doubts. Unless somehow these spirits are able to change their nature that much.
 

SkullTraill

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No. But demons are the most popular type of spirit called upon in Grim Trad. First let me say that I have not read every single Grim Trad text but in general, these are the spirits utilized in Grim Trad:

  • Angels
  • Demons
  • Elementals
  • Planetary
  • Aerial
  • Spherical
  • Genius Loci (includes all land spirits that aren't Elementals)
  • The Dead
Special mention to the Luminaries of Gnosticism but most would probably categorize them as angels.
What does Grim Trad stand for? I have to say I'm not familiar with that phrase...
 
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