What if we are all alone and every god, religion and magical system was an egregore?

[slim116]

Just having an existential moment here. I came to magick and the occult to get a cosmology more closer to the "truth" (i come from a christian background, so something more realistic than the Creation story in genesis).

But going through deconstruction of christianity made me think... what if every metaphysical thing is just an egregore. Like every religion, every god, every magickal system, everything we have ever imagined is just an egregore...its just us and our egregores we've made in the cosmos.

I mean every magickal system was created by someone at some point right? A whole bunch of people believed in it, and boom a new magick with its own logic that works.

What if God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha were common men, but egregores of them were created from people telling legends about them for centuries?

And in the occult, no one really prove anything can they, especially afterlife?

I mean yes you can definitely know if you've made contact with a presence, but how do we know its a a being that existed way before us, or a centuries old egregore that has gained its own intelligence.

It just makes me wonder, what is real then?

Just us and our thoughtforms?

 

[Van Horne]

What if God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha were common men, but egregores of them were created from people telling legends about them for centuries?

Considering Jesus Christ and Buddha Siddhartha Gautama, they were actual historical persons, so they became idolized and symbols for an idea that's still inspiring people. I would call this a good thing, besides religious fanatics who keep on turning this world into hellhole for us all.

Allah, Yahweh and the Christian God are the same, and yes, foremost it's an idea. Other cultures have different names for basically the same idea, i.e. Monad or Brahma. But these ideas don't came out of nothingness, they are the result of our experiences and feelings beholding this amazing and scary world and the gigantic complexity of the Universe. It's our attempt to abstract an idea from the Absolute Truth we are barely able to grasp. We are "just" human after all. Mysticism is one way to get closer to this truth, and Magick is one method to make use of this insights.

IMHO cats and dogs are the biggest proof to me, that we are not alone. They don't understand many things we do, our ideas, our culture, all our weird hobbies, but they never leave our side, not even in our cruelest, darkest moments. Somebody or something cares for us and gave us true companions. And this Divinity (or Singularity, or Principle, call it what you want) gave us eyes to watch the stars, hands to act, and a brain... so we should use it!
In aspera ad astra! Nobody said it would be easy!

BTW I like your profile pic!

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Just having an existential moment here. I came to magick and the occult to get a cosmology more closer to the "truth" (i come from a christian background, so something more realistic than the Creation story in genesis).

But going through deconstruction of christianity made me think... what if every metaphysical thing is just an egregore. Like every religion, every god, every magickal system, everything we have ever imagined is just an egregore...its just us and our egregores we've made in the cosmos.

I'll admit that this is roughly how I see it as well. Only we still don't know what an egregore really is, either

I mean every magickal system was created by someone at some point right? A whole bunch of people believed in it, and boom a new magick with its own logic that works.

I would say that all magical systems are different ways of getting to grips with what magic really is, because we cannot interact with it without some kind of tool/method. The Sufi story about the blind men and the elephant.

What if God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha were common men, but egregores of them were created from people telling legends about them for centuries?

And in the occult, no one really prove anything can they, especially afterlife?

I mean yes you can definitely know if you've made contact with a presence, but how do we know its a a being that existed way before us, or a centuries old egregore that has gained its own intelligence.

Yes, these are indeed all good points!

It just makes me wonder, what is real then?

Just us and our thoughtforms?

Things can indeed be real, even if they don't exist Money is a good example...

 

[Aldebaran]

What if God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha were common men, but egregores of them were created from people telling legends about them for centuries?

You are closer to the truth than you know.

 

[Durward]

If they don't exist, nothing then changes about the day-to-day, and life goes on like it is currently going on.
If they do exist, nothing changes and life continues as it has.
For some, I suppose it would be like finding out that the practices they have been studying or using for decades have been in vain, and a waste of time and energy. But is it a waste if someone gets something personal or uplifting from it? Some hope or guidance?
We likely have zero evidence that any possible egregores humanity has created are focusing on individuals, or granting them anything special.
But, people still throw their entire lives into these characters, and wars have been waged over the belief systems of some of them.
So, exist or not, they move people, they influence masses, and that is a type of power.
The tragedy is that the power of a couple of these systems is so misogynistic, divided, bigoted, threatening, and controlling that people who dive down that rabbit hole become horrible and hateful monsters that commit murder, slavery, and genocide, and feel righteous about it.
So, again it doesn't matter if it is real or not, if it drives human beings to that kind of action, it should all be abolished as the garbage it really is.

 

[StandingByGodot]

What if we are all alone and every god, religion and magical system was an egregore?

Well, it certainly something worth thinking about at some point: The fact that there are so many systems, creatures, and all sorts of mystic phenomenons, means that they are not actually the "root" of the matter, isn't it? The observation provided by Perennial Philosophy comes in handy...

"The perennial philosophy (Latin: philosophia perennis), also referred to as perennialism and perennial wisdom, is a school of thought in philosophy and spirituality that posits that the recurrence of common themes across world religions illuminates universal truths about the nature of reality, humanity, ethics, and consciousness ... For all perennialists, the term denotes a common wisdom at the heart of world religions, but exponents across time and place have differed on whether, or how, it can be defined." - Wikipedia, Perennial philosophy

We can also apply the same principle to magick: Reality Shifting, Witchcraft and Sorcery, Law of Attraction and the New Age, Occultism, etc. It all points to the same moon.

I think that this will eventually lead to the realization that there's nothing beyond our subjective experience, and there's no such a thing as an objective reality as such, only different ways to concede, intent and experience the world. That the world is not "a place" (we actually only imagine we are in a planet, but we never really "see" this for ourselves), it would be more like a metaphysical field of ether, and extension of our consciousness, and we are basically traversing trough a imagined private world, sharing information in an inter-subjective way.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I think that this will eventually lead to the realization that there's nothing beyond our subjective experience, and there's no such a thing as an objective reality as such, only different ways to concede, intent and experience the world. That the world is not "a place" (we actually only imagine we are in a planet, but we never really "see" this for ourselves), it would be more like a metaphysical field of ether, and extension of our consciousness, and we are basically traversing trough a imagined private world, sharing information in an inter-subjective way.

I find this super interesting. If you insist on a single universe, then the picture that you sketch is how things will be. The physicist Carlo Rovelli has made this idea into a self-consistent interpretation of quantum mechanics called "relational quantum mechanics".

It is still possible for things to be objectively real; it requires a multiverse, and the picture is more difficult to get your head around.

 

[StandingByGodot]

It is still possible for things to be objectively real; it requires a multiverse, and the picture is more difficult to get your head around.

The thing is, structurally speaking, there's no really any difference between experiencing something in the mind (our thoughts), and the materialization of our intentions in our current experience (Besides prominence, obviously). If you can concede of it, conceptualize it, you can "intend it". Of course, while more flexible worldview/model you adopt, the more open the experience is to radical changes i believe. "Multiverses" it's also another thing we conceptualize to concede changes or explore reality trought this perspective rather than "the actual experience", it's just another metaphor to refer to "All possibilities are complete". There would not be difference between, say, declaring there's a Multiverse, and t

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, however, there are more useful ways to think about things than others, like some people agree to concede reality as a simulation with some far away mechanism operating an "glitchy" reality (doesn't do anything) while others assert reality as experiencing their minds, an imagined structure, a dream (the ground to make changes, to do the magic).

In a way is like layers. The model -> Ways to intend (Basically, Imagination and Intention are all there's to it, but the worldview we fully adopt center us in an storyline and create flexibility in navigation).

 

[MorganBlack]

egregore...its just us and our egregores we've made in the cosmos

I'm sympathetic to the premise, but for me it depends on what people mean by 'egregores' and how much they use language to make the universe smaller.

If they mean something like the Golden Dawn "godform" - meaning an imaginative matrix that gets empowered by consciousness from "The Divine" (or as I prefer The Mystery, or The Nous).. then great!

But if by 'egregore' they apply reductive logic to mean something like a spooky, parasitic face-hugger that turns frogs gay or Christian, it’s just more fear-mongering that goes nowhere except into one’s own lint-filled navel.

The universe is not to be understood completely, it’s to be experienced. But for those of us coming from a very secular background, this is almost impossible to accept.

My path was Chaos Magic, then move to the diabolist grimoires like the GV. If one does similar - not that it is the only path - you might just get 'taken' someplace by these 'imaginative constructs' and be healed. They will 'do' very measurable things in the world that make most arguments a waste of time. "Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!"

But it does not mean you have take the stories and myth around any of them literally, which is almost impossible for those of us who grew up in a secular culture toido anyway. . You just need enough plausible deniability to give yourself an out of what Joseph Chilton Pearce calls, 'The Crack in the Cosmic Egg,

To quote Christopher S. Hyatt:

"What we do suspect is that “magic names” work like any others: If you keep calling, say, Baron Samedi in a graveyard to kill an enemy, something eventually may come along that can kill your enemy and will consent to answer to that name, not just for you, but eventually for others as well. Whether this “something” is already there, or forms as the Tibetans sometimes assert, is anyone’s guess."

 

[Durward]

It is still possible for things to be objectively real; it requires a multiverse, and the picture is more difficult to get your head around.

It is not just possible, it is what it is. Trying to make physical reality into a mind screw is simply childish in my world.
The last person who said it to my face was challenged with the fire experiment. I hold your hand in the fire, and you just imagine it isn't happening, and we will see what happens.
Of course you are stuck in a physical body, in this time flow, and in this dimension, and you can't escape unless you are extinguised. All of the rules apply that are known to physics and mechanics. You can't escape that with philosophy or other fantasy thoughts about how life happens. Life comes with free pain and suffering, free struggles, starvation is free, and free ignorance. Of course life doesn't seem real when you are sitting in the basement eating pizza bites and smoking dope, but that won't change any of it.
This is in the same boat as flat Earth nonsense in my view. Thus, I despise this view with a very deep rooted knowing that the BS of the mental fart 'it's all in your head' is total BS.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

The thing is, structurally speaking, there's no really any difference between experiencing something in the mind (our thoughts), and the materialization of our intentions in our current experience (Besides prominence, obviously). If you can concede of it, conceptualize it, you can "intend it". Of course, while more flexible worldview/model you adopt, the more open the experience is to radical changes i believe. "Multiverses" it's also another thing we conceptualize to concede changes or explore reality trought this perspective rather than "the actual experience", it's just another metaphor to refer to "All possibilities are complete". There would not be difference between, say, declaring there's a Multiverse, and t

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, however, there are more useful ways to think about things than others, like some people agree to concede reality as a simulation with some far away mechanism operating an "glitchy" reality (doesn't do anything) while others assert reality as experiencing their minds, an imagined structure, a dream (the ground to make changes, to do the magic).

In a way is like layers. The model -> Ways to intend (Basically, Imagination and Intention are all there's to it, but the worldview we fully adopt center us in an storyline and create flexibility in navigation).

I see what you're saying, but I draw your attention to my signature

Sure, all models are wrong - but some are useful

The point about the Multiverse is that it's a model that is compatible with experimentally verified science (not the only one, but hey) so more detailed than just "All possibilities are complete". In my research, "We don't change the universe, we experience the version of the universe where the change is present." Also, this means that we need to be that version of ourselves compatible with that change.

 

[StandingByGodot]

I see what you're saying, but I draw your attention to my signature

Sure, all models are wrong - but some are useful

The point about the Multiverse is that it's a model that is compatible with experimentally verified science (not the only one, but hey) so more detailed than just "All possibilities are complete". In my research, "We don't change the universe, we experience the version of the universe where the change is present." Also, this means that we need to be that version of ourselves compatible with that change.

Agreed on the "All models are wrong" bit but only in the sense that it doesn't capture who we truly are, but rather help us to shape our experience according to what we want it to be (Magic, to cause change). Analogies are useful to illustrate for the sake of practical utility, but the thing pervading all that it's beyond analogies, it underlies them all.

On the experiment bit, i think experimentation for these things it's only fruitful for providing insight, but whatever is concluded will always be subjected to the observer. Magical events could happen but not everyone will note them as such; that's because we all experience our worldviews as true i think.

It is not just possible, it is what it is. Trying to make physical reality into a mind screw is simply childish in my world.
The last person who said it to my face was challenged with the fire experiment. I hold your hand in the fire, and you just imagine it isn't happening, and we will see what happens.
Of course you are stuck in a physical body, in this time flow, and in this dimension, and you can't escape unless you are extinguised. All of the rules apply that are known to physics and mechanics. You can't escape that with philosophy or other fantasy thoughts about how life happens. Life comes with free pain and suffering, free struggles, starvation is free, and free ignorance. Of course life doesn't seem real when you are sitting in the basement eating pizza bites and smoking dope, but that won't change any of it.
This is in the same boat as flat Earth nonsense in my view. Thus, I despise this view with a very deep rooted knowing that the BS of the mental fart 'it's all in your head' is total BS.

Well, Subjective Idealism and Non Duality are quite old ideas, really.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

It is not just possible, it is what it is. Trying to make physical reality into a mind screw is simply childish in my world.
The last person who said it to my face was challenged with the fire experiment. I hold your hand in the fire, and you just imagine it isn't happening, and we will see what happens.
Of course you are stuck in a physical body, in this time flow, and in this dimension, and you can't escape unless you are extinguised. All of the rules apply that are known to physics and mechanics. You can't escape that with philosophy or other fantasy thoughts about how life happens. Life comes with free pain and suffering, free struggles, starvation is free, and free ignorance. Of course life doesn't seem real when you are sitting in the basement eating pizza bites and smoking dope, but that won't change any of it.
This is in the same boat as flat Earth nonsense in my view. Thus, I despise this view with a very deep rooted knowing that the BS of the mental fart 'it's all in your head' is total BS.

I never said that it was possible to ignore physics. What I am saying is that I believe that physics contains the mechanism that we use to do magic. Magic is an edge-case of normal human consciousness, IMO

As usual, I'm not saying "you need to agree with me".

When I said "get your head around" I just meant "understand"

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:18 PM

Magical events could happen but not everyone will note them as such; that's because we all experience our worldviews as true i think.

Yes - everyone has their own worldview - but like Brer Rabbit and the tar baby, it requires a lot of magical work to disentangle yours from everyone else's.

 

[StandingByGodot]

Also, on this bit.

The last person who said it to my face was challenged with the fire experiment.

This kind of things doesn't actually prove anything doesn't it? Actually, its quite a funny observation that you did experience what you were inclined to expect from your perspective =]

Seriously tho, just because i decree that i adopt reality as a personal dream doesnt mean that i immediatly will wave my hand in the flames like moses (It could happen! But not necessarly). Just like i could dream everything, i dreamed myself a vessel that can't do those things... Yet

However, recognizing myself as that aware space that underlies everything present and potential, and asserting the world as an imaginary world, i open myself to my potential.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:24 PM

requires a lot of magical work to disentangle yours from everyone else's.

Is not really necessary tho?. Your experience it's independent from any "external" worldview because you only experience "your reality" after all, being everyone else just part of said experience. After all, we're doing that just fine in this forum, like... Right now.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:45 PM

It is not just possible, it is what it is. Trying to make physical reality into a mind screw is simply childish in my world.
The last person who said it to my face was challenged with the fire experiment. I hold your hand in the fire, and you just imagine it isn't happening, and we will see what happens.
Of course you are stuck in a physical body, in this time flow, and in this dimension, and you can't escape unless you are extinguised. All of the rules apply that are known to physics and mechanics. You can't escape that with philosophy or other fantasy thoughts about how life happens. Life comes with free pain and suffering, free struggles, starvation is free, and free ignorance. Of course life doesn't seem real when you are sitting in the basement eating pizza bites and smoking dope, but that won't change any of it.
This is in the same boat as flat Earth nonsense in my view. Thus, I despise this view with a very deep rooted knowing that the BS of the mental fart 'it's all in your head' is total BS.

(Sorry for replying in chunks, im outside and on mobile. Just some other passing pointers)

First, you're not actually stuck in your physical body, you wouldn't be able to dream if that were the case. However i agree that it can feel like that because perveption can be overpowering and we tend to get lost in it.

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.
Second, define fantasy? Everything here and in any esoteric material could be fantasy, but not for that it cannot be actionable. Literally all these systems are first conceptualized, and then experienced. Philosophy and models, also, help us to allign our choices correctly, it's the Supra-Intent that underlies our subsequent actions (Im not really familiar persomally, but the Post Chaos Magick author Alan Chapman said something along the lines of "The meaning of the act its what you decide it means", which i go step further and say "The Meaning of everything across my experience means what i decide it means"). Personally, i found tying magick with philosophy (or model or worldview or whatever; an story of sorts) a powerfull eye opening approach. Anyway, i identify with "the context" rather than "the content" of the experience.

 

[MorganBlack]

The physicist Carlo Rovelli has made this idea into a self-consistent interpretation of quantum mechanics called "relational quantum mechanics"

Thank you for that, Robert Ramsay! I was not familiar. With a quick scan I came across this: relational quantum mechanic "suggests the world isn't made of "things" with fixed properties, but of relations between systems". Love it! Sounds like diamons to me

And Art. Particularly color composition. 'Blue' is so much more blue-y appearing when placed next to the quality we call orange.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I mean yes you can definitely know if you've made contact with a presence, but how do we know its a a being that existed way before us, or a centuries old egregore that has gained its own intelligence.

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Where Gods come from; or, The advantages of ejecting religion from one's praxis

One cognitive feature of humans has been called Hyperactive Agency Detection. This is the automatic attribution of intention to phenomena. Studies have demonstrated that this begins in early childhood. Mankind is approx 300,000 years old (and that is not even considering pre-humans). Innate...

wizardforums.com

Also, this means that we need to be that version of ourselves compatible with that change.

Yet sometimes people get results that they don't consciously believe they can achieve. They may try magic as a lark and then get results, for instance. Also, one can have extreme 'unusual' experiences outside of anything one has ever expected (I can testify to this), thus it's difficult to say one's self-conception shifted them to the universe where this could occur.