What would you concentrate on as a magician if evocation did not exist?

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Hopefully this thread will point out new areas we can focus on instead, leaving evocation in the dust.

 

[William66]

Hmm, planetary/talisman magic maybe?
Hard question haha

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Those too, I think I would concentrate on Energy Work. From what Ive heard about beginner benefits, would to see advanced benefits.

 

[league]

Positive inner energy, knowledge and growth within oneself and together.

 

[The God-King]

Do you mean just the actual act of evocation doesn't exist or spirits can't be contacted at all? If it's the former and spirits can be contacted, just not with evocation then I'd probably focus on astral projection or some other form of soul travel so I can go to the spirits directly. If spirits cant be contacted at all then I'd probably focus on divination.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What would you concentrate on as a magician if evocation did not exist?
SUBTOPIC: What are the Possibilities Beyond the Consequences of the Creation by the Supreme Being
⁜→ Diluculo_DelFuego, et al,

Once you rule out any entity created by the First Cause (Principles of Nature and Grace)(Principles of Nature and Grace), you have to question the reality of existence.

Hopefully this thread will point out new areas we can focus on instead, of leaving evocation in the dust.

(SHORT DIRECT COMMENT)
.
Once accepting the concept of existence can be a reality beyond the "technical motivations" (the reach) by the creator of the Universe THEN a number of possibilities avail themselves (including but not limited to):

◈ Mystic Phenomena​

✦ causality and synchronicity,​

✦ quantum mysticism, ​

✦ life and death issues including near-death experiences, ​

✦ shared death experiences,​

✦ deathbed visitations, ​

✦ reincarnation, ​

✦ evidence for consciousness​

​

◈ Psychic Phenomena ​

✦ Telepathy, ​

✦ Empathic ability, ​

✦ Mediumship, ​

✦ all the "Clairs" (clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc.)​

.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Do you mean just the actual act of evocation doesn't exist or spirits can't be contacted at all? If it's the former and spirits can be contacted, just not with evocation then I'd probably focus on astral projection or some other form of soul travel so I can go to the spirits directly. If spirits cant be contacted at all then I'd probably focus on divination.

Yeah, it's actually a neurosis of mine behind this, I just grew a distaste for various reasons on either demons or angels, and a dualistic approach of respecting the Old Religion of my UK born family, and the modern (80s) Baptist household I grew up in (and subsequent seeking and searching after that).

So the topic is basically no evocation, since it is the first thing everyone wants to run to before they can even crawl, including myself (in the distant past).

No slam against people who do work with them, I just want to know where I should spend my time I would have wasted on evocation to no avail yet again. In being frank with all concerned, readers and repliers alike, Im on a elemental grade system track, approaching Zelator this Jan, and then will be trying hard to reach deities of earth, including Sandalphon and Uriel. So Im not against spirits, there is just something I noticed I dont trust about it all.

So if evocation were not to be a topic, soul travel or astral projection I could see. Even invocation I could see to get a partial possession or the likes.

There are just so many vast areas in occultism it just rains bricks on me when I see people running for evocation at first and being successful at it.

Maybe its really an underlying other personality flaw of mine, but thought it might open eyes to all that there is more than just evocation (though the powers could be very satisfying, but what cost, why, who's involved and why is the angelic approach not more centered on driving people to righteousness. Warm fluffy angels were not the ones that dealt with Babylon, Sodom, Gomorrah, and other areas past.

 

[The God-King]

Yeah, it's actually a neurosis of mine behind this, I just grew a distaste for various reasons on either demons or angels, and a dualistic approach of respecting the Old Religion of my UK born family, and the modern (80s) Baptist household I grew up in (and subsequent seeking and searching after that).

So the topic is basically no evocation, since it is the first thing everyone wants to run to before they can even crawl, including myself (in the distant past).

No slam against people who do work with them, I just want to know where I should spend my time I would have wasted on evocation to no avail yet again. In being frank with all concerned, readers and repliers alike, Im on a elemental grade system track, approaching Zelator this Jan, and then will be trying hard to reach deities of earth, including Sandalphon and Uriel. So Im not against spirits, there is just something I noticed I dont trust about it all.

So if evocation were not to be a topic, soul travel or astral projection I could see. Even invocation I could see to get a partial possession or the likes.

There are just so many vast areas in occultism it just rains bricks on me when I see people running for evocation at first and being successful at it.

Maybe its really an underlying other personality flaw of mine, but thought it might open eyes to all that there is more than just evocation (though the powers could be very satisfying, but what cost, why, who's involved and why is the angelic approach not more centered on driving people to righteousness. Warm fluffy angels were not the ones that dealt with Babylon, Sodom, Gomorrah, and other areas past.

I think people jump straight to evocation because of the appeal of "seeing" and having two-way communication with spirits. Also spirits aren't bound by the same physical laws that we are, so commanding them is also appealing to people. In many ways more so than candle magic or sigil magic.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What would you concentrate on as a magician if evocation did not exist?
SUBTOPIC: What are the Possibilities Beyond the Consequences of the Creation by the Supreme Being
⁜→ Diluculo_DelFuego, et al,

The nature of the various approaches to the "occult" can fall into a number of metaphysical studies and are not confined to a single coral that resides beyond Tests by the Scientific Method.

Warm fluffy angels were not the ones that dealt with Babylon, Sodom, Gomorrah, and other areas past.

(COMMENT)
.
Ghosts and those special appearances by consciousness (souls in accession) and those apparitions associated with angelic and demonic characteristics (angelic and demonic entities being essentially deprived from the same source) may be explored from either Theological (philosophical), Noetic/Scientific, for some combination (alla Gottfried Leibniz).

We do not actually know what manner of being The First Cause dressed into service (assuming there is some measure of truth in the fables).

On the Celestial Hierarchy describes the intelligible realm as divided into nine ranks of beings: the seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, powers, authorities, principalities, archangels, and angels.
SOURCE:

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. In the New Catholic encyclopedia, there are individual entries for Seraphim, Cherubim, and Archangel as angelic spirits. (That is the farthest I ever researched.)

Notice that the "Archangels" are not on the highest wrung of the ladder; in some theologies. While researching "Guardian Angel" - I found this: "The term ANGEL, as presently used in Catholic theology, indicates a spiritual minion of the divine court."

Demons are quite controversial. Some do not believe in demons. Depending on which priest you talk to, the practice of exorcism ("warding off DEMONS or evil spirits from persons, places, or things") is just as controversial.
[New Catholic encyclopedia.—2nd ed. © 2003 by The Catholic University of America • Published by Gale pg551]
.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Protection magic, honing the pentagram and hexagram rituals is something I need to do, so probably a wise investment of time for others as well.

 

[Roma]

To contact a higher plane entity reliably it necessary to have the consciousness on a suitable plane for the connection.

If the consciousness is on a lower plane, it is common that a lesser entity will pretend to be the one that was called. Most humans do/can not test incoming entities and suffer accordingly.

Before learning "rising on the planes" it is necessary to establish control of the emotional and mental bodies

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I was thinking about that, that demons are a lower vibration, and have power over the earth.
We have to raise our vibration to be able to adequately live as the source would want us to.
So perhaps learning meditation, mind control, and vibration first.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What would you concentrate on as a magician if evocation did not exist?
SUBTOPIC: Effecting a Connection on a Higher Plane
⁜→ Roma, et al,

I'm not sure I understand what this means.

To contact a higher plane entity reliably it necessary to have the consciousness on a suitable plane for the connection.

(COMMENT)
.
Living Humans (being mortal beings) operate on a single plane. Mortals cannot move or communicate directly between planes of existence in an unassisted manner. Even King Divid (who had the "Spirit of the Lord") used the energy from the Arc (containing the tablets), maintained in the Holies of Holies, to communicate with the Supreme Being. King Solomon attempted to draw the attention of the creator through the first oration of the •𓅂 Ars Notoria • The Notary Art of Solomon. But neither had unassisted direct contact with the First Cause.
.

If the consciousness is on a lower plane, it is common that a lesser entity will pretend to be the one that was called. Most humans do/can not test incoming entities and suffer accordingly.

Before learning "rising on the planes" it is necessary to establish control of the emotional and mental bodies

(COMMENT)
.
This sounds rather sinister to me!

What is "consciousness" (as you use it in this case). What is meant by the "lesser entity." When you say "rising on the planes" → how many planes are there? Is the "consciousness" an actual object • or • an artificial construct by man to theoretically explain other possibilities?
.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roma]

demons are a lower vibration, and have power over the earth.

That is a rather human and bottom-up view.

Consider the Tzimtzum and the entities that assist the formation of universes by making the Light darker and denser.

The standard presentation of Tzimtzum is a bit religous. It may be better to consider that the out-breath to manifested Existence exists in parallel to the in-breath to Beingness.

Thus there are spiritual hierarchies for both flows

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[Al-Zalaam]

Hopefully this thread will point out new areas we can focus on instead, leaving evocation in the dust.

Personally speaking, the lack of evocation would change nothing for me.
Perhaps back when I was a teenager, I was fleetingly interested in evocation, but I have long since had no interest in it.
There are but a few spirits I have some interest in meeting, such as Bardon himself and one other who I shall not name, but I will use astral projection to visit them in their zones, not evoke them here. I find it more polite this way, and I desire a more natural interaction with them person-to-person.

On a side note regarding this topic, I would strongly recommend any practicing magician looking for areas to expand, to take up practice with the Vital Force.
The Vital Force, aka the Electromagnetic Fluid tied to our astral matrix, is the primary energy naturally exerted by pretty much anyone trying to work magic, such as through spellwork or rituals. It is the essentially the "default" fuel used by rituals and spells, so even the most ardent ritualist will benefit from this form of energy work, as strengthening one's power over the VF will automatically empower one's ability to exert themselves through spellwork.

The VF is no small matter, it is one of the central components to great success in practical magic, as even Bardon mentions that the VF alone is more than capable of fulfilling all the dreams of the average sorcerer.
Its balanced composition, containing both the Electric and Magnetic Fluids, makes it a natural jack-of-all-trades capable of effectively engaging in any endeavor of practical magic.
Its Electric principle gives it the capability to effectively exert the will of the magician upon the universe, only being limited by the practitioner's proficiency and developed rapport with the VF, while the VF's Magnetic principle grants it the capability to be efficiently programmed with great complexity, as well as allowing it to be a powerful force of attraction in the case that the practitioner would prefer more passive means of influence.
Finally, the combined presence of Electro-Magnetism grants it the capability to effectively influence or channel any kind of goal, idea, force, and etc., as it essentially contains the two poles from which all the rest of the cosmos unfolds from.

So not only is building one's natural power through VF work a good idea for both energy workers and ritualists alike, but with thorough mastery of the VF, one would eventually outgrow the need for rituals or spellwork entirely.

 

[Lazarus]

Same as I do now, creating reality

 

[Amur]

Practice more on elemental magick. Fire-Water-Air-Earth and Spirit. It is literally the key flow of life itself when you understand the deeper meanings behind them.

 

[annandrola]

Good answer

 

[Amur]

I just realized that the quality and 'element' of Spirit is seen when you have gone through the flows and ebbs of the elements.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2023

Everything in magick and life is a state of flow and ebb, the flows of magick is precedented by the positions of the planets themselves and our galactical position and depicts also if it's a downwards flow or an upwards flow. God Descends, Goddess Ascends, that's how it has always been.

In nature we get a dualistic flow.