Where Gods come from; or, The advantages of ejecting religion from one's praxis

[MorganBlack]

Aviaf! 93, brother (sister?). I'm ex(ish) OTO as well. Good to meet you here.

To everyone, I see Crowley is brought up a lot here, and while I disagree with Uncle Al on many points, I feel we don't have many good training systems. You can mostly ignore his UPG traveling Enochian Aethers IMHO, unless you want to engage with his personal shit more deeply. Too many magicians think they are not doing Enochian right if they don't have his exact visions, and adopt his godforms. I am of the optinon the A∴A∴ (Argentum Astrum) curriculum, as well as his better writings, are very good starting points, for now.

As a good mental tool for unpacking Crowley's corpus, I'd like to highlight what Dr. Stephen Skinner usefully points out: when Crowley writes the word "Magick" or "magic" mentally auto-replace it with the word "Mysticism", and he will be put on the shelf in the correct category.

These more post-1899 Theosophical Society influenced systems are more usefully not thought of as Magic , but they are good training for Magic. So for anyone who thinks Crowley's program is for magic (by which I mean, legit sorcery), they are not. And should not be judged by the success criteria of "results magic" /sorcery/ pre-1899 Magic That is not what they are for. It took me joining the Order to get confirmation of that. But, once you see what they are for, for restructuring your "Nephesh," your mental-emotional connections, you can engage with it, and with any mytheopoetic system.

Later, lesser occult influencers like Gerald Gardner, made this confusion n' conflation all much worse smearing a thin coat of highly academic confirmation bias pagan paint over New Thought , and appropriating the tools and aesthetics of legit historical sorcery, Goetia. Pardon I get low low-irritated by this, even while I think his system can work for people.

Similarly, The Golden Dawn system is more akin to Chaos Magic than most people recognize. Traveling up the Tree of Life to the Sephiroth, you will have various visions, cross the Abyss, become a Magus, and speak your Word. Oddly, somehow, just as you think you should. Like it was all pre-planned for you. Hmmmm. Fancy that! The type of "enlightenment" you get is of a different quality than Dzogchen Clear Light of Consciousness. It is more mental-emotional but this does not mean it is without value. Most of the Modern systems work like this, so pick one that makes you into a fun, creative, and joyful person rather than a cramped, bitter monster.

If you want a "system of manifestation" without the gods, tools, robes, circles, weird names, and other occult bric-a-brac, I highly recommend Neville Goddard's writings. You don't need gods or spirits to create miracles.

Now I will say, one magician I respect, says Neville's system is relying on your HGA in the background, and I have no way to disprove him, because I only engaged with Neville's work after experiencing both an Underworld Initiation from one of the daimons of the Grimoirum Verum, and K&C of my HGA.

The only argument I have against his take is Salty NT Grandpa, who was a member of Neville's Group, and not an example of what I think of what an Adept (or whatever we call excellent practitioners ) should sound like. But maybe that's just my own personal biases.

Neville Goddard's Law of Assumption VIP Class Testimony (YouTube)

 

[Kepler]

HGA is not a thoughtform.

If everything in the universe has life, or consciousness, in an immanent material atheist model of co-creative egregores giving rise to complex beings biological(and otherwise) through universal processes across multidimensions, then it might not be wrong to say so. But it could be misleading, especially as it pertains to the ideas of autonomy.

Maybe I can explain what I mean from a summary of outtakes of my own experience:

In 2006 I began investigating an entity that was making itself known to me.
In October 2007 with the outburst of comet Holmes 17P in the constellation Perseus connections were made with the entity and the constellation Cygnus. Ecstatic hyperphysical visions followed for months.

In November 2008 was informed from communication with first hand connection to a 2006 attempt of a TOTO magical order egregore that conformed with entity and confirmed clairs.

Shared photo taken of the group's focus for entity.*
My constellation for entity defined from new info, clairs and pop culture(Chromaggia for Sagitta).

...
2021 more about TOTO egregore confirmed. Integrated.
February 2022 to defend nation against aggression changed mythos with Sagitta to uncripple and weaponize egregore through adjustment with energy from current events, weather magick and pop culture(Shinigami Eyes, partly for storms overlapping release of song with Rocket League at the time).

Began introducing and defining entities of other constellations in the celestial sphere. A quarter of the celestial sphere a year, beginning with 4 constellations and stars along the celestial equator Bootes, Aquila, Cetus, and Monoceros - Arcturus, Altair, Menkar, Procyon.

There were many concurrent and consecutive experiences around the height of what I've come to define as my HGA event. There is a distinction between the Universe and the Angel and oneself though they're all interdependent in with my experience and functional with natural science in an atheistic hylozoic model.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Aviaf! 93, brother (sister?). I'm ex(ish) OTO as well. Good to meet you here.

To everyone, I see Crowley is brought up a lot here, and while I disagree with Uncle Al on many points, I feel we don't have many good training systems. You can mostly ignore his UPG traveling Enochian Aethers IMHO, unless you want to engage with his personal shit more deeply. Too many magicians think they are not doing Enochian right if they don't have his exact visions, and adopt his godforms. I am of the optinon the A∴A∴ (Argentum Astrum) curriculum, as well as his better writings, are very good starting points, for now.

This is turning into off-topic crowley evangelizing and more dogma that doesn't grapple with my original post. Just asserts the same stuff people have been practicing for decades with not so great results (although 'mystical' attainments' run wild)

. But, once you see what they are for, for restructuring your "N so pick one that makes you into a fun, creative, and joyful person rather than a cramped, bitter monster.

Crowley could be kind of monstrous himself at times. I wouldn't put him around anyone's kids, for sure.

Now I will say, one magician I respect, says Neville's system is relying on your HGA in the background, and I have no way to disprove him, because I only engaged

This is more disempowering nonsense. I disavowed anything like the HGA at the start of practicing, and I began manifesting in 1990. My very first conscious manifestation was that year - a completely free trip to St Croix. I'm not going to list more results, but an anti-religious approach is no bar to accomplishment in the least.

Neville was still too religiously- inclined (still egregoric sway) and from what I've been told, he experienced a number of problems later in life. His theory is mystical gobbledygook. Some of the theoretical problems with standard LOA stem from New Thought confusion.

 

[MorganBlack]

Beyond everything, yeah, agreed, Crowley has many issues.

But whatever happened at the Abbey of Thelema, at Cefalù, Italy, the A∴A∴ he and Bennett made is still a fine personal training system for newcomers, if they do not get caught up too much in "Crowley's uniform," as David Bowie sang.

About Neville Goddard. Neville's Law of Assumption is about as minimalist a cosmo-conception as you can get. LOA is just a series of techniques, a praxis. If it makes esoteric Christians, whatever. That is on them. You and I can't fix simpletons.

Neville encouraged people to not be mythic literalists - and said over and over the Bible is just metaphor, many times. If they did that is on them. You can lead a horse to water...

"Your imagination is God," he'd say.

And if you don't like that name then substitute whatever you prefer.

"Your imagination is Pikachu"

Or maybe, "Your imagination is Batman."

If you're Wiccan, "Your imagination is the God and the Goddess."

The more shamanic one, "Your imagination is the spirit world."

Whatever floats your boat. The difference that makes a difference is, and I agree with the tenets of the practice of Law of Assumption here, your imagination.

So Wiccans need to dance around naked and raise "cone of power," then far be it from me to tell them not to. If Anton LaVey needs nude women, capes and devil horns to juice up his imagination, fine. If you're a quantum atheist and need to believe in the power of quantum mechanics and the Observer Effect, (and to be clear, I certainly do), then have at it.

It only becomes "egregoric" and culty if you take any of it overly literally. Because that would be stupid. I also feel tilting against the windmills (the wrong-think) of simpletons is also a waste of time.

 

[Diamond-otherkin]

It is very true what you suggested about many spirits being egregore in nature my friend, you’re the only one who has ever said this apart from myself although as mentioned, it went down like a lead balloon on the other site just because I said many spirits originated from man. I have to be careful what I say at times as some magicians do appear to have a deluded world view

It's an idea that is the main thesis or clearly featured in many well know books dating several years back... I think it's not as unpopular as you guys may think it is. But people who dislike the idea may be a bit more vocal.

 

[BBBB]

If everything in the universe has life, or consciousness, in an immanent material atheist model of co-creative egregores giving rise to complex beings biological(and otherwise) through universal processes across multidimensions, then it might not be wrong to say so. But it could be misleading, especially as it pertains to the ideas of autonomy.

Maybe I can explain what I mean from a summary of outtakes of my own experience:

...

What I mean to say by "HGA is not a thoughtform" is that you don't make up your HGA, it is. That's the point of having one. HGA is causal toward your human self. Of course, then the circus begins and we have different takes on HGA depending on person's favorite model - and those HGAs are thoughtforms.
Now, for a person on a tone scale lower than Fear (referencing Hubbard's human evaluation charts here) everything is a thoughtform, because they don't - can't - get out of their mind, their "inner universe". They still can do magic (badly), but "via" something, and monitoring via something again, which makes for serious distortions.
When I say using HGA and working on your "thetan" abilities could be a way to drop vias, the topicstarter doesn't want to take it for checking, he knows it all already. What's there to say, I was done arguing with that kind long ago.

People who don't confront reality at least episodically live in the Plato's cave. So it's irrelevant what model they use. Knowing what you are and what you aren't as well as the ability to manage your points of view was one of the "promises" of LRH and is achievable even if not available through the organisation (supposed to be OT8 ability, but they mispresent and mistrain it now, if you can get to OT8 training at all). Excuse me for using your communication to address another one, which is a dead end. I never wanted to argue with topicstarter, but sometimes when people slander something I know to be different, I may say something about it. A thing often overlooked is that you only understand what is in line with your own desires. You get roughly what you deserve, and people saying "this and that is not perfect, so I won't follow them", look not to follow, but to ride on the back of their "leader", I think, paying for that with their cheering or just taking it for granted. A sincere person would share a goal, and make for it even if the one who inspired them failed. Those will attain, while the "encumbrance" will be waiting forever for a bus.

In my understanding HGA is not something of this world, so you can't find it there, it can't be a demon you met, it can't be a celestial body, etc.
It is you.

 

[Beyond Everything]

It only becomes "egregoric" and culty if you take any of it overly literally. Because that would be stupid. I also feel tilting against the windmills (the wrong-think) of simpletons is also a waste of time.

I confess I've lost interest in repeating things but Ill just add a few words. As far as Neville, I take the totality of his life and his later writing like A Confession of Faith to indicate what I mean....More specifically, lots of people dont get results from his work (they say so). Feeling is not really 'the' secret as he liked to say, it can be A secret though. Manifesting can happen without blatantly conscious feelings. We are dealing with the peculiarities of each person's subconscious and energy complex....I'll just repeat it's not only simpletons who are under egregoric influence

but sometimes when people slander something I know to be different,

I don't think it's really slander to point out Hubbard lied and said people undergoing his training would be able to move physical objects with their mind. Nor to point out his own problems that went unsolved by the techniques he proposed, or to state that the Church of Scientology, Like Dianetics, was always a fervent money making machine.

Post automatically merged: Sep 30, 2025

It's an idea that is the main thesis or clearly featured in many well know books dating several years back... I think it's not as unpopular as you guys may think it is. But people who dislike the idea may be a bit more vocal.

Im only aware of Stavish's book, which I merely flipped through. IIRC at one point he counsels praying to god to disconnect from egregores, so his worldview and approach is very different from what I presented.

 

[Kepler]

In my understanding HGA is not something of this world, so you can't find it there, it can't be a demon you met, it can't be a celestial body, etc.
It is you.

That sounds similar to the older theistic philosophical models explanation of the experience. Where they envision a transcendent God in a non-physical heavenly place.

My understanding from experience and research is it can be best defined as a hyperphysical intermediary in an immanent multidimensional universe. Yes, it could still be considered oneself, in contemplations about something like a one electron universe, but that's something different.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yeah, by now we've all entered into some pointless 9th Circle of Hell called "Everything I dislike personally is an Egregore."

Occult nerd griefer walks into an art gallery of fine artists complaining about the colors of paint, yapping about how you need to transcend Ultramarine Blue and Cobalt Orange, or you 're not a "real "painter. Like, get out of here, kid.

We are in The Imaginal / Daimonic Reality, and the desire leave it all behind is like fish in the ocean complaining abut the water they want to transcend.

For that the Zen Center is -> over there.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Occult nerd griefer walks into an art gallery of fine artists

That's funny. I mean who is the Rembrandt or Velázquez in this analogy? I do hope we're not talking about Crowley, the guy who couldn't escape the shadow of his religious upbringing (what else is the true will but the ole divine plan of gawd dressed up in new clothes?), and was subject to histrionic fits (as Regardie related to Hyatt). If it's the esteemed members here, you'd think that those with such profound gnosis would have some clue about the transmutation into a higher subtle body?

This is a good lesson in demonstrating that those under the influence of egregores, often don't like being told they are.

​

 

[Kepler]

It's an idea that is the main thesis or clearly featured in many well know books dating several years back... I think it's not as unpopular as you guys may think it is. But people who dislike the idea may be a bit more vocal.

Going back to Ptolemaic Egypt if syncretism is considered a precursor.

Maybe they've just read their first book on the subject.

With the changes to natural science we know there aren't crystal spheres and a firmament to support those transcendent models so things have to be developed to understand the nature of egregores.

Occult nerd griefer walks into an art gallery of fine artists complaining about the colors of paint, yapping about how you need to transcend Ultramarine Blue and Cobalt Orange, or you 're not a "real "painter. Like, get out of here, kid.

I didn't even realize egregore was being used pejoratively until your post. To me that is like using 'electromagnetism' pejoratively. "look at you sheeple held together by universal forces, unlike me!"

I wanted to ask op if they tried manifesting some self awareness with their trip to St. Croix on their way to their egregoreless immortality.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I didn't even realize egregore was being used pejoratively until your post. To me that is like using 'electromagnetism' pejoratively. "look at you sheeple held together by universal forces, unlike me!"

I mean, I made it explicitly clear in my original post- they are limiting factors towards the individuals ascension.

I wanted to ask op if they tried manifesting some self awareness with their trip to St. Croix on their way to their egregoreless immortality.

Granted, it's not as impressive as you 'defending the nation'. Perhaps you might do some more work to ease the political situation. That would be nice.

 

[Kepler]

Perhaps you might do some more work to ease the political situation. That would be nice.

Magical Battle of Britain style.

I did then, and continue to. While it'd be imprudent to speak of current operations, the intent of my experiment in national defense at the time was to help stop the anti-gov protests by the end of the Olympics in 2022. There were a lot of egregores involved in that one. While I learned a lot and the goal achieved, I can't take all the credit.

After that I immediately went to helping Ukraine.

 

[MorganBlack]

Interesting, Kepler!

Right right . It's just not a word I use.

Speaking as a grim trad goetic magician, "egregore" is suspiciously close to The Grigori, The Watchers. Often they are just daimons wearing an astral costume, mask, or reflection.

But the past 10 years or so I've noticed the word "egregore" is often used as another type of anti-magic woo woo, like parasites, attachments, and trickster spirits. It's smeared over from low-information internet occultism, evangelicals, and right-wing Catholic paranormal investigators.

Being afraid of "egregores" is just another way for "ex" Protestants to say they're afraid of being possessed by demons, without saying they're afraid of being possessed by demons.

Western methods, like Goetia, are nothing if not two things: Daimonic and Demiurgic, in all the best ways.

Speaking as if these are hard categories for a sec:

"Sorcery" - the word I prefer to mean "not Mysticism" or the post-1899 "magic" or worse "Magick" - that has been mixed with alien concepts since Theosophy. The word "magic" may have some use, but like "egregore" they both have been retrieved from the bottom of a moldy salad drawer where anyone can throw their rotten vegetables.

As far back as Byzantium the practice of 'Magic"' was understood as Sublunar activity. Everything above the Moon was The One. In Hermetic parlance, The Below and the Above. ' In my language "Below" "is" The Daimonic , The Imaginal Sublunar world , and Pure Consciousness / The One is the "Above".

This confusion has been mixed in since Theosophy which quintupled down on Mysticism (becasue they knew next to nothing. Not their fault. "Magic" is a broken tradition and they had to fill in 90% of it ) - and this includes the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Gardner, and later suck-city internet occultism.

So if OP wants to get rid of all their crayons and overcome Samsara, I am actually sympathetic. This is just the wrong place. All the wannabe mystics should go hang out with the New Age yoga weebs at the Shambhala Center.

But a magician embodies Meaning Itself, and is a speaker of lies, telling stories so beautiful that even the daimons believe them (in the context of the ritual) , and they become true.

 

[Beyond Everything]

After that I immediately went to helping Ukraine.

And here I thought the stalemate in that war was due to the Russian military being hollowed out for some time.

Post automatically merged: Oct 1, 2025

In

But the past 10 years or so I've noticed the word "egregore" is often used as another type of anti-magic woo woo, like parasites, attachments, and trickster spirits.

I don't believe that. It's certainly not used a lot. There is one book about it, and that author has done some podcast interviews. Other than that, word is not thrown around a lot at all.

So if OP wants to get rid of all their crayons and overcome Samsara, I am actually sympathetic. This is just the wrong place

A Magick, Occult, Esoteric Community Forum​

I do believe I fit at the very least under the 'esoteric' category. In any event, that is your opinion. I'm not sure why that should have any bearing on what I post here however.

 

[MorganBlack]

In over thirty years of practice I highly advise staying far away from modern sources, especially post Theosophical Society, New Age ideas presenting itself as traditional magic , including the anti-cosmic Dark Fluff , all of which seems to be wholly dependent on modern UPG, and cherry-picking of Gnostic sources.

If you search for the word "egreogore" on any number of occult forums will easily demonstrate show how far and wide that idea has spread and mutated. It has made many newcomers too afraid to step put of their little grey room, and leave the armchair, lest they be pounced on by eldritch horrors.

While I think It's highly laudable to be a self-possessed and independent thinker, ideas such as "trickster spirits , parasites and attachments" while not 100% wrong in the wild, accepting too much this close cluster ideas as an operative framework will make sure the host mind will never advance in their practices of traditional magic.

It took a while to get here:
Babylonian exorcism rites → PGM → Goetia → Renaissance magic → Hermeticism → Rosicrucianism → Freemasonry → Transcendentalism → Theosophy → New Thought → G.D. → Thelema → Wicca → NeoPaganism → Dark Fluff / Internet Occultism → WitchTok → ?? Some idiotic horror show??

Similarly, the search for "High and Divine Magic" is an artifact of mystical neo-religious (to coin a term) speculation by the likes Eliphas Levi, and A.E Waite. This is true of all the masonic lodge magic derived systems that are very late developments.

Anyway, life is way too short to field test all of the obvious scams and group-think. My recommendation would be to read the primary sources, pre-1899 sources that modern works draw from and frequently misinterpret. Agrippa, the Grims and Keys, Iamblichus, Proclus, Porphyry, the Picatrix, etc.

You have to develop some heuristics for filtering out pointless exercises, sterile cosmic speculation, fear mongering, and Min-Maxer wish fulfillment. While i am very much mystic, sorcery (trad magic) is a tool and is not spiritual elevation - well, it is, but not in any way "Hermetic", New Age, and neopagan circles think of it.

Lodge"magic" Hermeticism has it's place, but it is not "magic"as anyone prior to 1899 would think of it. But after being grounded in trad primary sources you can better identify the Ape of Thoth bad ideas from what is useful.

 

[Beyond Everything]

If you search for the word "egreogore" on any number of occult forums will easily demonstrate show how far and wide that idea has spread and mutated. It has made many newcomers too afraid to step put of their little grey room, and leave the armchair, lest they be pounced on by eldritch horrors.

I'm not buying beginners afraid of egregores, they are afraid of 'demons' or maybe 'karma'. I doubt you could find 10 posts talking about fear of this.

Similarly, the search for "High and Divine Magic" is an artifact of mystical neo-religious (to coin a term) speculation by the likes Eliphas Levi, and A.E Waite. This is true of all the masonic lodge magic derived systems that are very late developments.

How do you name check Iamblichus and also say this?

 

[MorganBlack]

Because even Plato said this is all just a story.

Post automatically merged: Oct 1, 2025

Pardon. Writing between working.

Eliphas Levi, and A.E Waite are true believers in a dualist cosmic vison. Their assumption about the universe are about the a polar opposite from Iamblichus' non-dualist cosmo-conception as can been . See Shaw's book here.

What Iamblichus meant by theurgy is not magic, and only pejoratively wrote about "magic" or goetia, and only used it to defend theurgy against his critics. Again this is a modern conflation in Western esoteric and New Age traditions.

While I do support theurgy/theosis, and have my own mystical practice, to lump magic (sorcery) under it only leads to more "confusing the planes" and mising on set of tools for another.

 

[Kepler]

Babylonian exorcism rites → PGM → Goetia → Renaissance magic → Hermeticism → Rosicrucianism → Freemasonry → Transcendentalism → Theosophy → New Thought → G.D. → Thelema → Wicca → NeoPaganism → Dark Fluff / Internet Occultism → WitchTok → ?? Some idiotic horror show??

It was either Sanders or the Farrar's that introduced the idea to me. Can't recall the name of the book. Maybe What Witches Do. It's funny to see you list an realize I've been working my way backwards through it.

I'm curious was the horror show stuff is lol

Anyway, life is way too short to field test all of the obvious scams and group-think. My recommendation would be to read the primary sources, pre-1899 sources that modern works draw from and frequently misinterpret. Agrippa, the Grims and Keys, Iamblichus, Proclus, Porphyry, the Picatrix, etc.

A modern book I'd recommend, but does require Liberal Arts education to get much out of is Jung's Red Book. There are rules to these visions and egregores. Not well understood, but that is part of occult investigation.

Speaking of the Red Book...

And here I thought the stalemate in that war was due to the Russian military being hollowed out for some time.

It's more complicated than that reduction.

An educated guess on the thread topic of egregores informed by the Magical Battle of Britain may have thought reinforcing Ukrainian egregores.

For me, that meant strengthening the patron saint of Kyiv, Archangel Michael, with celestial association to the constellation Ophiuchus assisting alignment and momentum to the cosmos. Benefiting hyperphysical vision and response. Increase intelligence of linked with SMI2LE forumula.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2025

What I mean to say by "HGA is not a thoughtform" is that you don't make up your HGA, it is. That's the point of having one. HGA is causal toward your human self. Of course, then the circus begins and we have different takes on HGA depending on person's favorite model - and those HGAs are thoughtforms.
Now, for a person on a tone scale lower than Fear (referencing Hubbard's human evaluation charts here) everything is a thoughtform, because they don't - can't - get out of their mind, their "inner universe". They still can do magic (badly), but "via" something, and monitoring via something again, which makes for serious distortions.
When I say using HGA and working on your "thetan" abilities could be a way to drop vias, the topicstarter doesn't want to take it for checking, he knows it all already. What's there to say, I was done arguing with that kind long ago.

People who don't confront reality at least episodically live in the Plato's cave. So it's irrelevant what model they use. Knowing what you are and what you aren't as well as the ability to manage your points of view was one of the "promises" of LRH and is achievable even if not available through the organisation (supposed to be OT8 ability, but they mispresent and mistrain it now, if you can get to OT8 training at all). Excuse me for using your communication to address another one, which is a dead end. I never wanted to argue with topicstarter, but sometimes when people slander something I know to be different, I may say something about it. A thing often overlooked is that you only understand what is in line with your own desires. You get roughly what you deserve, and people saying "this and that is not perfect, so I won't follow them", look not to follow, but to ride on the back of their "leader", I think, paying for that with their cheering or just taking it for granted. A sincere person would share a goal, and make for it even if the one who inspired them failed. Those will attain, while the "encumbrance" will be waiting forever for a bus.

In my understanding HGA is not something of this world, so you can't find it there, it can't be a demon you met, it can't be a celestial body, etc.
It is you.

Having considered more about what you're saying I've a few more thoughts to to add to my earlier reply.
The comet in Perseus that compelled me to connect the then unknown entity with Cygnus could be considered moved by the universal mind of the cosmos in the model.
In the model everything is an egregore and has a soul. A soul, while still unclearly defined, can be viewed as a coherent vector of force within the framework. If the constellation for the entity is looked at like a discrete body, a house of 'the observer' and soul, there is an astronomical vector that can be determined relative to it, the universe and oneself. Which can be applied to the model for understanding the soul of bios and orienting for reincarnation on any planet in any galaxy with those characteristics.