Working definition of: Sorcerer vs Magician vs ????

[Neferkare Amen]

Ok. I can't sleep so, welcome to:

The insomniatic ramblings of Zmaji! 🫣

Tonight at 2:45AM London England, 48mins short of the dreaded 3:33AM basically reflecting on years of practice looking in the mirror like Frankenstein's monster wondering, 'what am I... what have I become!?'

This in particular after receiving my Hand of IFA in an African tradition and being put through my paces there. Noting that my practice covers various traditions and having to (reluctantly) recant on past perspectives on what it means to be a Magician vs being a Sorcerer. Maybe.

Drawing from Jewish Christian mysticism, Hermeticism, Tantra, Greek, and Yourban culture all mixed into some form of personalised coherence I think I'm now a, "Sorcerer". Too mixed to be a Magician now perhaps and too far off from being a priest despite those roles being within ones function.

Prior to this I had reserved the title of Magician for those most esteemed of individuals overall working toward alignment and their true will. Casting the view of Sorcerers as being adhoc spell casters more inclined toward personal power not feeling bad about what tools they use to obtain their goals. Most likely drawn toward grimiore hopping, chaos magic, WoW, and craft beer over HoGD magic, yoga, Sushi and exquisite wine.

A priest/ess is then someone who has adherence to one culture specifically and is the opposite to a Sorcerer as they would not interact with other cultures or use tools outside of a specific culture or tradition.

These are of course extremely loose, crappy and personal definitions which are obviously quite lame but its now 3:15AM and irregular thinking should be encouraged at such times.

Q: How do you define yourself as a practitioner? What are your definitions of a Magician / Sorcerer etc etc?

Think we may as well throw witches and warlocks into the cauldron, see what bubbles up.

 

[Firetree]

Ancient ; via etymology Magic- power , Sorcery - divination . From IE and various descended language roots it shifted and seems to now be somewhat reversed

sorcery - innate, inherited, raw ability

magic - studied and learnt 'technology'



If I may make an observation ... you seem to be at that stage before everything falls together and fits like a jigsaw puzzle that now seems like a 'bunch of different bits ' ( who/ what am I ? ) but all off a sudden , few pieces 'click' and then it 'all falls together ' . and then .....



- the True Will emerges .

If that didnt make sense , I have a story about it ( I got a story for everything ) .

 

[Diamond-otherkin]

You will find out in the future looking backward. While the question itself is important, the answer will not exactly come from it, while the answer could also never exist without the question being asked.
Basically asking the question will lead you to some more self-observation and self-searching, this will guide the path you chose to observe and "know yourself" and in turns, these methods of observation will guide you to a particular results.

 

[Neferkare Amen]

Am finding glue in a connection to traditional cultures whose priests are best able to stick things together via divination. Both Indian astrologers and IFA priests give similar readings and interpret through their cultural perspectives.

Interesting thing with the language having changed over time. Always welcome a good story... especially when sleep is as evasive as it is.

Perhaps I am a sorcerer more than a magician after all

 

[Diamond-otherkin]

Oh yeah language is quite a something, it seems like you probably have a good grasp of technical terms in several languages, I would recommend learning a completely new language if possible one from a family far from the languages you already speak and then trying to meditate on these same questions in that new language after you have achieve fluency. Big break-through came my way through this method.

 

[Keldan]

There’s a lot of overlap between these definitions, and everyone is going to describe them a little differently. But for me, magicians are people who use sleight of hand, manipulating cards, coins, and similar props for entertainment. They aren’t doing magick, it’s just performance and psychology. If you look up magician in a standard dictionary, you’ll usually find that kind of definition.

A sorcerer/sorceress is more focused on spellcraft, often working with herbs, oils, powders, and other materials. Witches and wizards are rooted in folk practice and the cycles of nature, which is different from sorcery. But they can still do spellwork too, including working with herbs, oils, powders, etc. So there’s a lot of overlap between those categories.

Then there are mystics who tend to care less about outcomes and focus more on inner transformation. Although they can often miscommunicate every sight they have as something coming directly from the divine.

An occultist is an umbrella term for someone who studies or practices esoteric systems, grimoires, astrology, etc. Some occultists are more theory oriented, while others are more hands on, it depends on the person.

Shamanic practice involves a lot of trance journeying, healing, channeling, etc. Of course, trance work can show up in sorcery or wizardry too, but it usually isn’t done as frequently as many times a day as it is in shamanic work.

A diviner is someone whose core practice is receiving and interpreting information through geomancy, scrying, prophetic dreams, etc.

I prefer the term mage and it fits me best because I don’t follow any other tradition, framework, or system. My practice is combining other things/definitions and approaches.

 

[skatedom]

I prefer the term magician or wizard.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I prefer the definition from "Falcon and the Winter Soldier": "A sorcerer is a wizard without a hat"

 

[GGold]

I personally find it difficult to define myself. Based on the posts here I would go with an occultist that is probably the closest to what I do.

 

[MorganBlack]

This is a tough linguistic knot to unpack if one is only using English.

Not to make rule for anyone, call yourself whatever you like. but I use the word "Magician" for one who practices magic AND is concerned with Wisdom, deep philosophical and/or spiritual matters, a true seeker. A "Sorcerer" is a boot-on-the ground worker of sorcery, or "results magic" and is less directly concerned about high-minded matters of philosophy, ontology, ethics or morals.

A Haitian Bokor is a sorcerer, and while some might be the meanest of the mean magical assassins, they might also be a true seeker of spiritual elevation or philosophical wisdom, but they don't make it a requirement for sorcery.

Particularly within the context of the Western Esoteric Tradition, the word "Magician" has dual use in modern occultism. It both implies one who has achieved or seeks the highest wisdom, while also hewing very closely to accepted mainstream interpretations of how reality is constructed. They practice "licit" magic. Whereas the "sorcerer" is a more marginal figure, who is not very acceptable, and works with entities or simply just forces that the local governmental, scientific, and Church "official truth-sayers" often do not agree with. They practice "illicit" magic.

The modern Magician (often a High Magician or Theurgist) is frequently seen as a philosopher-scientist. They often work within highly structured systems (like the Qabalah, Hermeticism, or even certain strains of Jungian psychology) that seek to explain the "mechanics" of the universe.

I reserve "Magician" as a word of highest respect, as we all aspire to this in its best manifestations.

Conversely, I reserve the word "Sorcerer" for a more "boots-on-the-ground" practical respect. It's also a word of respect to me, within it's domain and conerns.

The word "magician" stems from the Old Persian word magus (plural: magi). The Magi were a hereditary caste of priests within the Median and later Persian (Zoroastrian) Empires. They were responsible for religious rituals, dream interpretation, and astrology.

To the Greeks and the Hellenic world of early Christianity (nee early Catholicism), the magoi were seen as respected "scientists" or "theologians." This is why the biblical "Three Wise Men" are called Magi; they represent the licit, scholarly, and holy pursuit of celestial knowledge. By the Hellenistic period, the term "Chaldean" (originally referring to Babylonians) became interchangeable with Magi to describe masters of astrology and "high" mathematics.

The Greek also have a native word for magic, Goetia, that came from Pre-Homeric times. The Greek "Sorcerer" was the Goēs (plural: goētes). This gives us our word Goetia, and the English terms "Black Magic" and nigromancy (often bundled with necromancy), which were considered illicit forms of magic.

The Magi, Astrologers, and "Holy Magicians" are aligned with the "licit magic" of the dominant culture's religion - be it Christianity, Islam, or just Science, s the official truth. The goe, the sorcery , then later the Church reduced it to magician. was one who traffics with the daimones (the "lower spirits") and works "illicit magic." Calling people a goēs or a sorcerer was an insult, implying they were not "holy," were rather suspect, and lived outside the bounds of normal society - attaining power only through the use of spirits, demons, and the dead.

In Hoodoo, a form of New World sorcery like Brujeria, many practitioners were African American Baptists (or Catholics in Louisiana) and would be very offended at being called either a sorcerer or magician, or being told that they do "spells." They are just good religious people doing spiritual "work."

In Hoodoo, the term "Work" (as in "Rootwork" or "doing work") is a functional, pragmatic descriptor. To an old-school Rootwork practitioner, they aren't "casting a spell" (which sounds pagan); they are petitioning the Holy Spirit, using the Psalms as formulas, or utilizing God’s "natural pharmacy" (roots and herbs) to effect change.

I classify Brujeria as "Sorcery", since it is not primarily interested in seeking philosophical wisdom. Because it developed in a Catholic cultural context, there is a tension with the definition of what is "wise" (meaning the Good, True, and Beautiful) in Catholic countries. It often incorporates saints and formal litanies. The tension here is between the Church’s official "licit" miracles and the practitioner's "illicit" folk magic. But woe be to you if you call the little grannies muttering over their rosaries in church a bruja (a witch) - they will kick your ass.

Calling a traditional Rootworker a "Magician" or "Sorcerer" often fails for two reasons. First is the ego problem: "Magician" implies a person who commands the universe through their own will or secret knowledge (the "Left-Brain" Architect). But the New World Sorcerer often sees themselves as a humble intermediary - worker. The power doesn't belong to them; it belongs to God, and they are simply "fixing" a situation using the tools God provided.

In the eyes of a 19th or 20th-century Baptist rootworker (or Deacon), "Magic" was something Pharaoh’s priests did in opposition to Moses. Therefore, to call a practitioner’s work "magic" or "magician" was to align them with the villains of the Bible. By calling it "Spiritual Work" or "Help," they kept the practice within a framework that was morally defensible within their community, making it also "licit."

I reserve the word 'Sorcery' for anything that is illicit, either religious or intellectually by the official truth-tellers, be they from Science, Religion, or the Academy. I reserve the world Magician for the very highest ideals of all, as i see it. May we all be one, one day.

 

[saber]

I do have a few loose definitions I use for these terms. I think there's a considerable amount of overlap between them, though, so don't think of them as exclusive!

Magician - Someone who practices magick (usually Ceremonial Magick in my circles, but other people can use the word too) as a method for personal understanding and spiritual attainment. Really like this term because I associate it with the pursuit of higher wisdom and the goal of attaining mastery.

Sorcerer - Someone who practices magick primarily to achieve aims rooted in physical reality. If I needed a new job and wanted some help, I'd probably turn to a Sorcerer.

Witch - Going traditional with this one, but the term "Witch" was historically applied to people who were accused of making a pact with a non-Christian spiritual entity, like a pagan god or a demon. There's also a some nuance here because a lot of Witches tend to focus on more folk magick or magick focused on physical results, much like a Sorcerer. Many people like this term and want to reclaim it, so you see a lot of Witches.

and while we're at it

Priest/Priestess - Someone who has been appointed by a divinity to serve a ceremonial role in their worship. This usually means certain expectations and responsibilities put on the Priestess/Priest. This is more of a title that is given to you by the being you work with than one that is claimed yourself, imo. Also, there are plenty of organizations that have ranks of "Priest" and "High Priestess" and I think that's totally legitimate too! As long as it's a title that is given to you (important, because it means you're serving as a representative of something bigger than you), and carries the weight of responsibility, I think the meaning is consistent.

Practitioner - Anyone that practices magick with any sort of regularity. This encompasses all forms and traditions of magick, so it's my preferred label when talking in nonspecific terms about people who do magick.

Occultist - Maybe the broadest category, but I think it leans into "I study lots of occult books" more than "I practice magick frequently." Contrast with Practitioner.

I personally use a lot of these labels, depending on the context, but I usually introduce myself as a Witch or a Magician.

 

[MorganBlack]

Just to add to this, in Haitian culture, what most Thelemites, Wiccans, and philosophical magicians are doing is not being sorcerer or witch - what they call a Bokor - which has strong connotations of being a malefactor (a malfente ) and a worker of maleficia (malfekte). The malfente is the spiritual "evil-doer. " While a Houngan or Mambo works for the healing of the community, and a sorcer or bokor is someone who "buys" a spirit or uses a point of manifestation (a pwen ) to attack others.

Many here would would be called Un Scientiste. 'The Scientist,' which is a word of respect ,(if i understand the Haitians I have spoken to on topic of Modern magic accurately) - as practitioners view their craft as a technical mastery of laws rather than a "miracle" performed by intercession by Lwa, saints and spirits.

A Bokor is "outside the House " and will work with very 'hot' spirits and even Djab, devils or wild spirits. But Haitan culture , like Mexican culture is i a magical culture, and the Houngan or Mambo who 'works with both hands' will still go down to the cemetery to get a Zonbi (the spirit of the dead) to do some work for them, but they are within the bounds of the community, so it is 'licit' magic within the community.

Modern magic and esotericism is a hodgepodge of marginal ideas bundled together to make a thing called 'magic' - which we take to be "all good." Wiccans 'reclaim' the word 'witchcraft,' implying it always meant something good, which is not true. Before the 20th century what was 'witchcraft' or sorcery meant maleficia or black magic, done by very 'questionable' people... over there.

The historical witches everyone keep looking for were goetes who practiced goetia, whcih very demonic and they existed a Catholic cultural matrix, even if off to the side a little. This misinterpretation keep tripping us up in understanding "magic" in other culture's and that even now in 80% of the planet.

You know the South Park episode where the dad is trying to get the kids to listen to old 1980s music like The Police, and it just sounds like farts to them? The word 'Magic' sounds like stinky flatulence to people in traditional pre-1960's cultures.

We like to get huffy and feel superior to the 'stupid conservative normies' over there, but it's better to sense the dynamic here as one of miscommunication.

To get a sense of what calling yourself a 'practitioner of magic' or a 'witch' sounds like to people from more traditional cultures, imagine this:

Imagine someone coming up to you and talking about their religion and spiritual practice as if they were a ' Rapist' and they were 'High Violator' in their religion where they committed or practiced of 'Rape' and 'Atrocity' from the 'Unholy Land of Mordor.' And they worshiped Sauron and Hitler. You'd recoil in horror as they explain how it’s all fine.

We can laugh, but that is what 'Witch' and 'Magician' meant. Back in the early 1970s, the Catholic Church did clarify that 'White Magic' was fine, but the confusion is a long one going back to the Classical Greek writers, who liked to insult their enemies with the word" goes" , meaning "sorcerer."