Your thoughts on altered states of consciousness being 'mandatory'?

[mjesecC]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

 

[Shade]

I would say it depends on the practice but it’s pretty mandatory in all practices unless it’s to give thanks and even then it should be focused and aware. Everything a person does during a ritual or ceremony or creating a sigil should all be done in some sort of meditative state. The tools a practitioner uses or what they do beforehand should aid them in achieving their goal by getting them mentally prepared.
Next time you put on a robe instead of feeling a bit silly, it’s better to connect with the reason why you do it.

 

[Xenophon]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

Simply paying undivided attention is an altered state, given our habitual meandering in moderate mental fog. That remark is meant in all earnest and nothing facetious. Remember all those early exercises like seeing a figure mentally projected onto the wall, or hearing a clock that isn't there.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

We're always in some mind state and move between states depending on what we're doing and whether we're awake or not. So, essentially we're always in some form of trance. Go up to someone and ask them a question, something safe that they're not likely to need to lie about. I usually ask 'Did you have a bicycle when you were a kid?' Look at their eyes before you ask the question and keep looking as you ask. You'll see their eyes move as they go into trance to access the part of the brain they need to answer the question. If they look up, they're accessing a picture. If they look down they're accessing a sound or feeling. When they do this I ask them what colour was their bicycle. Sometimes they'll look up briefly and then look down and go "Er, um er ..." which tells me they had a picture of the bicycle but are not aware of it. But they will be aware of the feeling of riding it. To help your magic, try experimenting by putting yourself in different states. Focus on seeing, then feeling, then listening. Taste and smell can be useful in magic too.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

I was wondering about something that seems to be the consensus amongst my local peers: one must be in an altered state of mind/gnostic state to perform any magickal operation.
For me, it is not something that's obligatory, but sorta helps me keep my mind censor in check, so that I don't think about how ridiculous I look praying over oils and herbs or dressed in ceremonial garb addressing the spirits.
I'd love to read y'alls input and, if possible, learning a bit of your experience

It's rubbish, unless one considers concentration itself an "altered state".... Which I would also find to be redundant garbage.

"Altered states" are only so necessary because the average mind is hardly conducive to magical operation, existing in a distracted fog of mental preoccupation. Thus using trance or an altered state is usually required to place the mind in a position of mental vacancy and effective focus to operate magic.

Those who take the steps to properly develop the mind for the pursuit of magic, however, need no such things.
I've never had to use anything more than my waking concentration + conviction for any of my operations, but that is because I have spent the time necessary to refine the mind into a tool suitable for magic.
The conscientious use of altered states has never been a component of my practices.

I'm not denying their ability to assist practitioners, to be clear, merely pointing out that they are not necessary if proper steps are taken in one's development.
Necessary for the average Joe, though? Definitely.

 

[Xenophon]

It's rubbish, unless one considers concentration itself an "altered state".... Which I would also find to be redundant garbage.

"Altered states" are only so necessary because the average mind is hardly conducive to magical operation, existing in a distracted fog of mental preoccupation. Thus using trance or an altered state is usually required to place the mind in a position of mental vacancy and effective focus to operate magic.

Those who take the steps to properly develop the mind for the pursuit of magic, however, need no such things.
I've never had to use anything more than my waking concentration + conviction for any of my operations, but that is because I have spent the time necessary to refine the mind into a tool suitable for magic.
The conscientious use of altered states has never been a component of my practices.

I'm not denying their ability to assist practitioners, to be clear, merely pointing out that they are not necessary if proper steps are taken in one's development.
Necessary for the average Joe, though? Definitely.

Developing concentration is a necessary preliminary to most workings. Some Goetic practitioners claim that their rites are dangerous without it. Steve Savedow has some striking anecdotes along these lines. Given the degree with a good many folks are digitally addled, some work in concentration is scarcely "redundant garbage." Someone with a measure of talent and a wealth of practice can dispense with a great many preliminaries, sure. But sang froid is the sign of the expert (or the genius talent), not the birthright of all.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

It's rubbish, unless one considers concentration itself an "altered state".... Which I would also find to be redundant garbage.

"Altered states" are only so necessary because the average mind is hardly conducive to magical operation, existing in a distracted fog of mental preoccupation. Thus using trance or an altered state is usually required to place the mind in a position of mental vacancy and effective focus to operate magic.

Those who take the steps to properly develop the mind for the pursuit of magic, however, need no such things.
I've never had to use anything more than my waking concentration + conviction for any of my operations, but that is because I have spent the time necessary to refine the mind into a tool suitable for magic.
The conscientious use of altered states has never been a component of my practices.

I'm not denying their ability to assist practitioners, to be clear, merely pointing out that they are not necessary if proper steps are taken in one's development.
Necessary for the average Joe, though? Definitely.

When someone speaks to you, you alter your state to find a response to them. In fact, we're all constantly altering our mind states to deal with the world around us as we can only be aware of somewhere between five and nine chunks of information at a time. That's why it's sometimes hard to make choices if there are too many things to chose from.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

Developing concentration is a necessary preliminary to most workings. Some Goetic practitioners claim that their rites are dangerous without it. Steve Savedow has some striking anecdotes along these lines. Given the degree with a good many folks are digitally addled, some work in concentration is scarcely "redundant garbage." Someone with a measure of talent and a wealth of practice can dispense with a great many preliminaries, sure. But sang froid is the sign of the expert (or the genius talent), not the birthright of all.

I was not implying the development of Concentration was redundant garbage, but the perspective that would hold Concentration as an "altered state".
Concentration, especially when expanded upon through the development of the Plastic Imagination (also called the Creative Will), combined with the foundation of Mental Mastery(Vacancy), are the cornerstones of being an effective magician.

When someone speaks to you, you alter your state to find a response to them. In fact, we're all constantly altering our mind states to deal with the world around us as we can only be aware of somewhere between five and nine chunks of information at a time. That's why it's sometimes hard to make choices if there are too many things to chose from.

Not even going to bother here. When everything is an "altered state", nothing is.
This is not the traditional definition of altered states in this context.

 

[Xenophon]

I was not implying the development of Concentration was redundant garbage, but the perspective that would hold Concentration as an "altered state".
Concentration, especially when expanded upon through the development of the Plastic Imagination (also called the Creative Will), combined with the foundation of Mental Mastery(Vacancy), are the cornerstones of being an effective magician.



Not even going to bother here. When everything is an "altered state", nothing is.
This is not the traditional definition of altered states in this context.

I was not implying the development of Concentration was redundant garbage, but the perspective that would hold Concentration as an "altered state".
Concentration, especially when expanded upon through the development of the Plastic Imagination (also called the Creative Will), combined with the foundation of Mental Mastery(Vacancy), are the cornerstones of being an effective magician.



Not even going to bother here. When everything is an "altered state", nothing is.
This is not the traditional definition of altered states in this context.

Post automatically merged: Aug 12, 2024

OK, I see your point. "Altered state" is a bit of a vague term. Your remarks on Plastic Imagination and Mental Mastery add some refinement to what's needed.

 

[mjesecC]

Thank you all for your input!
I failed to detail what I meant with altered states of conscience, but guess it was good to keep it vague to better let you guys elaborate on the topic. My point was if taking some sort of entheogen such as ayahuasca or going into vision/trance is something not only desirable but a sine qua non condition to conduct magickal operations or if concentration/a meditative state is enough to do so. I believe it depends on the practitioner and the goal they ultimately have, then?

 

[Xenophon]

Thank you all for your input!
I failed to detail what I meant with altered states of conscience, but guess it was good to keep it vague to better let you guys elaborate on the topic. My point was if taking some sort of entheogen such as ayahuasca or going into vision/trance is something not only desirable but a sine qua non condition to conduct magickal operations or if concentration/a meditative state is enough to do so. I believe it depends on the practitioner and the goal they ultimately have, then?

There have been some arguments in the forum about what, if any, role various plants/drugs can or should play in magick. I don't recall anyone saying that ingested agents are necessary; some few have declared it useful. Others argue that the downside is worse than the benefit. You might try searching related key words to turn up the thread whose name escapes me. I think it was active this Spring.

 

[David Wilson-Steer]

I was not implying the development of Concentration was redundant garbage, but the perspective that would hold Concentration as an "altered state".
Concentration, especially when expanded upon through the development of the Plastic Imagination (also called the Creative Will), combined with the foundation of Mental Mastery(Vacancy), are the cornerstones of being an effective magician.



Not even going to bother here. When everything is an "altered state", nothing is.
This is not the traditional definition of altered states in this context.

Well it is the traditional definition? Don't you think that sleep is an altered state from being awake? And dreaming is an altered state within sleep. Generalisations don't help. What is the 'traditional' definition of an altered state? Are you talking about alpha, beta, gamma & delta states? Are you talking about drug or alcohol induced states? Are you talking about trance states?

Post automatically merged: Aug 13, 2024

Thank you all for your input!
I failed to detail what I meant with altered states of conscience, but guess it was good to keep it vague to better let you guys elaborate on the topic. My point was if taking some sort of entheogen such as ayahuasca or going into vision/trance is something not only desirable but a sine qua non condition to conduct magickal operations or if concentration/a meditative state is enough to do so. I believe it depends on the practitioner and the goal they ultimately have, then?

One of the most successful rituals I've ever done was on acid. It took over five hours and was a little hard to concentrate. Most of the time I don't bother with ritual. I just decide something is going to happen and it does.

 

[Ash L.]

I always recoil at the term mandatory but that's probably just the slacker in me. Seriously tho, I for the most part subscribe to that bit of the lore, i.e. one must be in some form of "magical state" to interact with magical forces, affect subtle or mystical energies, and so forth and I think an altered state of consciousness is part of said magical state.

Honestly, however, this may just be an axiom and not law. I buy into it because it absolutely makes sense - of course my day-to-day mundane consciousness isn't up to the task, right?

What magic, I ask myself, has ever come from my mundane state of being? Maybe none, I think that would be accurate, but really this is all just a thought experiment in an echo chamber because I cannot lift the hood and say for sure on any of it.

I think it's a valid teaching for new people because of the likelihood it's true and if it isn't then all the preaching towards the altered state is just promoting a practice that is conducive to peak performance, because many-a-magical-state resembles much the flow state, alpha brain state, "in the zone" consciousness.

I would argue, however that an altered state need not involve a notable change in awareness or an awareness of a different conscious state. You don't necessarily need to or even get to feel a "head change" or even notice you are in "flow state" or whatever to actually BE in an ALTERED state.

This of course circles back around to I don't know if the necessity of such a state is a true thing and couldn't prove or disprove such a requirement nor even prove whether or not I/whoever is actually in an altered state, and so I end where I began: I like it. It makes sense. It's a good axiom that even if false still promotes a sort of best practice that leads to one's endeavoring towards a kind of peak performance at the very least.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Like most of the folk here said, our typical walking egoic consciousness is sleepy and disorganized. Altered States of Consciousness align with awareness and presence, a more heightened and one-pointed presence that can pick up on subtle senses missed in the mundane mode. The more present and aware you are, the more faculties are under your control, the more data you take in, the more flexible & defined your will is. When you think, you give up a large portion of your awareness to visualize & chew on that thought, probably more awareness than you think, in a much less efficient way than you'd like.

Drugs can help, but standard disassociative work gets the job done. I find drugs are good for exploring the mind & its states, but what mattera is what you pull out of it for sober focused use later. The goal is to speak the Universal Language, to slip the noose of limited box thinking without going mad or distracted. I can't imagine doing any serious magical work as the average Joe I used to be. Childish magical thinking might be the closest thing to mundane magical work, but the normal mundane human is so lifeless and logical, thinking of small immediate things or vauge distant things only.. for real magic to happen, life has to come in and logic needs to take the backseat, altering consciousness as a result.

My favorite altered state is in meditation, becoming awareness within a meat-machine; it helps drop the ego and its baggage quick, lets you actually breathe for a bit and develop your will/senses. This process is called "Turning the light around" in Chinese Alchemy; you do it for so long, eventually the light crystallizes and the Average Joe would become classified as the altered state.

Altered States of Consciousness by Tart is a pretty large and respectable book on the subject. It's got a lot of dry psychology-speak, but psychology in itself is mystical, just... a little rigid and slow when practiced by academics.

 

[Romolo]

Quoting from Blavatsky’s “The Seven Portals”:

73 “Before the gold flame can burn with steady light, the lamp must stand well guarded in a spot free from all wind.” Exposed to shifting breeze, the jet will flicker and the quivering flame cast deceptive shades, dark and ever-changing, on the Soul’s white shrine.

74 And then, O pursuer of the truth, your Mind-Soul will become as a mad elephant, that rages in the jungle. Mistaking forest trees for living foes, he perishes in his attempts to kill the ever-shifting shadows dancing on the wall of sunlit rocks.

I prefer to do rituals and spell-casting with a “steady light” and ”free from all wind”. The imagination can play unforeseen tricks, especially when dealing with spirits and Gods...

If you use mind-altering substances to work on societal norms, self-censorship, shame etc. try first to see how far you can go before ”the Emperor” appears in your inner monologue. I know people who can’t even pray without feeling laughable, or people who don’t even manage to light a candle and sit in front of it with your eyes closed. This is a serious issue. It is crucial to deal with card IV (the Emperor), else progress on the Path is impossible.

 

[Amur]

I think alcohol is really mandatory into reaching into lower states of consciousness evolving around spirits and other traumas that recide within. You just sort of go to your own flow when you are really drunk and start integrating pieces...

 

[IllusiveOwl]

”the Emperor”

This is a very potent synchronicity for me, the Emperor card is important now to me but I can't understand why. Could you shine some more light on what the card means to you?

 

[beardedeldridge]

I sorta skimmed the above responses and there were some decent points made but in the spirit of simplicity:

Altered states are helpful but not required. Essentially altered states simplifies the operation. Sorta like moving yourself partway to the magic/entity/result instead of having to drag the magic/entity/result all the way to you -ish.

-Eld

 

[Romolo]

This is a very potent synchronicity for me, the Emperor card is important now to me but I can't understand why. Could you shine some more light on what the card means to you?

In the light of this thread (not to go off-topic), in my work the Emperor manifests as ”the Law”, the glass cube that surrounds your body and judges or regulates your movements, actions, thoughts…They can hinder or even fully block rituals. This matrix of behavior can be inherited (hence: the Father), but it is mostly accumulated and copied through habit. It can be unlearned and I have always felt grimoires are wonderful practice. Getting a “handful of grave dirt from someone who died young” or “spinning around thrice under the full moon” are action that will help to loosen up. Slowly you can push the limits, more, more, until that inner voice has no more power, and you become, yourself, the Emperor.

 

[Xenophon]

I think alcohol is really mandatory into reaching into lower states of consciousness evolving around spirits and other traumas that recide within. You just sort of go to your own flow when you are really drunk and start integrating pieces...

I don't know that it's mandatory, but some folks find it useful. It's not called "spirits' by accident. Ol' Sam Houston in Texas used to call his whiskey-sipping "talking to my ancestors." Or so I have been told.