PSA: samael is not an angel and more about angels

[AbammonTheGreat]

While I personally tend to agree with this take, I have a feeling that certain gnostics, anti-authoritarians, or chaotic individuals may not.

If the metal has a violent reaction when exposed to water I can safely assume its an alkali metal, doesnt require me to be philosophically aligned with either side of the reaction.

 

[System Error Message]

As a conjurer with over a decade of experience this is ridiculously suspect. Religious scripture is one of the most notorious litmus tests in the discernment of spirits. If a spirit is telling you to ignore or disregard any holy book, religious text, or wise/holy man it is a trickster at best and much more malevolent at worst.

There are thousands of years of advanced mystics and magicians warning about this. There is a specific class of spirits that are known to be tricksters and like to front as angels. These are the entities Dr. Dee got into contact with. Seeing as you are unfamiliar with proper conjuration procedure I have no doubt in my mind these things are running absolute train on your psychology. They are deceivers. Be very careful of any spirit that tries to discourage you from holy texts or wisemen. A spirit or diety with your evolution at heart will propel you deeper into the sacred texts and point you towards wisemen. Ones that reject scripture are... well... make an educated guess.

If you did understand the relationship spirits have with one another and humans, you would see that religion is a scam, so it is not a reliable way to use as a litmus test. This is why i discourage it and not to mention angels themselves have complained and been threatened by some religious deities before. If you understand what a deity is, then it becomes clear why you cannot use religion as a litmus test as acknowledgement of a religious figure i.e. deity as christians love to say that confirmation of christ is necessary, then any spirit that validates it, is dishonest as the religion itself is dishonest. Not sure if this is the place to discuss about religion but the birth of christianity isnt so dissimilar to gnosticism. A lot of people getting consistent supernatural experience does not make a religion the right way, as evident by concept since the religions say they are the only way. All it does is verify that there is indeed a supernatural system behind it.

For instance, the concept of god is well understood by other species, even angels, and i have seen things through their perspective to understand. Religious deities seem a lot lesser than angels once you start applying concepts and understanding angels better. For one, why would your creator ask for you back? Is your creator not some ultimate being that it has to ask you to act for it, to give yourself to it, to worship it? That sounds like going in the opposite direction. Did you know that the reason why angels would feel insulted by this move isn't god, but its a disapproval of their own efforts to become what they are. They have succeeded so its like saying they need you to sustain them when they can sustain themselves. This is why while angels will still respond despite humans using bad methods, you would essentially be limiting yourself or your practice with them as they will be unable to fully share things with you.

The methods i put forth to verify are based on my experiences and knowledge from previous lives as i've dealt with beings far far worse than pretenders and i understand the issues each method of verification has that makes them 99% good for humans or this world, because any being that can surpass method 2 and 3 would also be a concern to angels themselves but such beings would never bother with humans even if humans asked. Acknowledging a deity instead does the opposite. It means that the spirit you are working with is under that deity's authority. Since human deities are far far lesser than angels, this makes it very questionable. As you can see only humans hold an opposite perspective to other beings. You will need to read below to understand more on other beings

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:50 AM

This is contrary to what you've said previously. You've said that humans need to learn to do direct magic but then you can't share the methods for them to do this direct magic and that the angels "don't want to make it available to humans in general."

So since you can't or won't share these methods, people will have to default to what they know and what works for them.
I am genuinely curious about these mysterious methods you can't share, but I'm not going to pry if you can't or won't share them.

Yes, I'm very curious about this direct magick. But it sounds like what Bardon's steps in IIH amount to - controlling the elements and visualising them.

you are correct in that bardon's IIH does teach direct magick, however for myself and other beings direct magick is a given since birth and through normal societal development. For instance the use of energy by directing the flow from myself through wings to my surroundings, moving the energy around me and boosting my own physical movement is something that is so instinctive that i only have to visualise it to feel it and make it work. I use this all the time however the human body has limits on how much forces and acceleration it can handle, same for any physical object and moving very fast is also very dangerous for anything you hit. However the consequence of this is that predicting and what you would call radar are also as instinctive to me. That is why i can find beings using ESP and contact them directly. However i also have the ease of angels knowing me and being around me regularly. Basically direct magick is harder for humans because humans were punished for abusing power, which means they get heavily nerfed making this difficult in the first place. That is why there exists a ritual for humans to unlock their magick potential using angels. I know this because the angel i havent named yet has stopped mages by doing the opposite as well.

I also mentioned 2 other easier methods. Gabriel is very underrated given how important the things he can do. Do not underestimate an angel's recommendation to another, it's a huge help for any method you use to contact angels.

For me i grew up in a religious environment in the east. The kind of things i do and developed i was not able to read through books, set up candles and so on. Where i live, even if someone wanted to switch religion they arent able to, and if they were to visit the church they could put that whole church into trouble. So doing anything physical where i am would get one in trouble with the religious authorities and while i can read books i just cant lay out anything physical from them, not even candles. However i always had direct magick and had a grasp of energy, intent and will and could also sense it in others as well.

The reason why im trying to talk about angels is because im trying to improve the relations for humans as thats the biggest obstacle right now and for so long for humans to work with angels or other beings. Some beings would only ever consider humans if they worked with certain angels as it shows that they can be trusted.

What angels dont want to make available to humans are a huge array of services and knowledge in general. So while angels could, angels simply dont trust humans to do that.

 

[Morell]

The reason why im trying to talk about angels is because im trying to improve the relations for humans as thats the biggest obstacle right now and for so long for humans to work with angels or other beings. Some beings would only ever consider humans if they worked with certain angels as it shows that they can be trusted.

What angels dont want to make available to humans are a huge array of services and knowledge in general. So while angels could, angels simply dont trust humans to do that.

Rather desperate attempt in my opinion. I don't think that this can be done.

 

[System Error Message]

Rather desperate attempt in my opinion. I don't think that this can be done.

i agree, thats why things are currently on manipulation rather than genuine attempt since the genuine attempts failed. However theres a strong need to try because of procedure and what will happen in the future otherwise. That means a lot of work needs to be done, so when the time finally comes humans cannot complain to angels that the angels didnt know their situation or doesnt understand humans.

Im currently writing another post on one of the more interesting things that has happened and a spell.

 

[Morell]

so when the time finally comes humans cannot complain to angels that the angels didnt know their situation or doesnt understand humans.

That's the case already. How can you understand someone if you don't spend some real time with them?

 

[mag1caljeet]

if all you said is true, then it sounds like this is your task in life right now but how are you talking about it so easily?

 

[System Error Message]

That's the case already. How can you understand someone if you don't spend some real time with them?

Because angels do incarnate but sleep while doing so. So this way they dont know that they are angels and no one else does. They'd go through human life like normal. There are some very specific and certain attributes that give it away but i wont spoil this one.

A simple example is enoch. They say enoch became metatron but humans cant simply evolve into angels directly. Rather enoch was already metatron who incarnated as a human.

if all you said is true, then it sounds like this is your task in life right now but how are you talking about it so easily?

No its not really my task in life, im just doing this as a side. Its like seeing an absolutely terrible situation and doing something on the side about it. Its not really my main thing but it still is a bit fun.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 2:41 PM

That's the case already. How can you understand someone if you don't spend some real time with them?

Because angels do incarnate but sleep while doing so. So this way they dont know that they are angels and no one else does. They'd go through human life like normal. There are some very specific and certain attributes that give it away but i wont spoil this one.

A simple example is enoch. They say enoch became metatron but humans cant simply evolve into angels directly. Rather enoch was already metatron who incarnated as a human and slept while doing so.

Angels arent tied to time and space so they can still be around while doing so, and be in multiple locations at the same time. They therefore have the 1st hand experience of humans to even judge them with. Angels also have access to the collective experience and memories of humans as they actually see souls and souls that also have not even incarnated yet. However for them the memories are all anonymised and they have strict procedures and respect for many things.

if all you said is true, then it sounds like this is your task in life right now but how are you talking about it so easily?

No its not really my task in life, im just doing this as a side. Its like seeing an absolutely terrible situation and doing something on the side about it. Its not really my main thing but it still is a bit fun.

This is contrary to what you've said previously. You've said that humans need to learn to do direct magic but then you can't share the methods for them to do this direct magic and that the angels "don't want to make it available to humans in general."

So since you can't or won't share these methods, people will have to default to what they know and what works for them.
I am genuinely curious about these mysterious methods you can't share, but I'm not going to pry if you can't or won't share them.

i just realised you highlighed 2 different points. The first one is that there are rituals/chants to summon angels from closed groups relating to the golden dawn and hermetics. They do work, are effective and i've tried them but they do get pretenders too. However i do not have permissions to share them.

The 2nd one is that angels themselves not being forthcoming to humans in general. Meaning angels dont trust humans and humans dont know to ask. So its not that i dont want to share more its that angels dont want to make that method available. You'd have to take it up with the angels themselves.

 

[mag1caljeet]

So from my understanding, you are either born with the ability to do direct magick or you can develop it. It's not sorcery but actual magick so you need to train yourself to get to the level where you can materialise and dematerialise matter with a thought.

And once you are able to do this, you can locate the angels and speak to them directly.

Is that correct?

 

[System Error Message]

So from my understanding, you are either born with the ability to do direct magick or you can develop it. It's not sorcery but actual magick so you need to train yourself to get to the level where you can materialise and dematerialise matter with a thought.

And once you are able to do this, you can locate the angels and speak to them directly.

Is that correct?

no. Firstly you dont need to train to the point of materialising matter, as direct magick is the process of doing magick with thought, basically putting the components together through visualisation.

The 2nd part is, the specific skill needed is ESP. Direct magick is related to ESP but they are different. To improve ESP you need to meditate and improve your awareness though franz bardon's initiation into hermetics should include a how to improve it. The way i use is that i tracked down the angels and talked to them. Your ability to sense is very important.

 

[Ayin_Ayin]

You're easily one of the most interesting people encountered in groups/places like these.

If you understand what a deity is, then it becomes clear why you cannot use religion as a litmus test...

For instance, the concept of god is well understood by other species, even angels, and i have seen things through their perspective to understand. Religious deities seem a lot lesser than angels once you start applying concepts and understanding angels better...

Not withstanding some of the theological or philosophical debates that could be had on concepts such as free will and coercion... I would agree that "deities" are lesser than angels, regardless of cultural insensitivity, in the regard that most of the deities of the world are supposedly the "backside" of angels which are meant to watch, guide, and preside over the nations that make up the created world. Quoted from Sefer Shnei Lucot HaBrit, Torah ShBeKtav, Toldot, Torah Ohr 60:

"The significance of the number seventy is the number of Jacob's offspring that went down to Egypt (ref. Deut 32:8) which corresponded to the seventy spiritual representatives to the Gentile nations in the Heavenly Regions... The Kabbalists tell us that of the seventy princes, representatives at the Celestial Court / Heavenly Council we have mentioned, thirty five are perceived as lining up on the 'right' side of the emanations (i.e. sefirot), whereas the other thirty five are found on the 'left' side. Israel has a Sandhedrin, Supreme Court / Council of seventy judges corresponding to those seventy princes of the Gentile nations. The seventy princes of the Gentile nations are called 'other gods / deities' because those nations look up to them as their gods. This idea is alluded to when the angel (The prince of Esau - Samae"l) justifies Jacob being called Israel by saying 'You have fought / wrestled with the seventy deities of the Gentile nations.'"

You've said that Samael is not an angel because he was a seraph that slew his kin at the angelic council with a special weapon... How curious indeed... If only people could separate and recognize their mythologies and the world they presently inhabit.

Because angels do incarnate but sleep while doing so. So this way they dont know that they are angels and no one else does. They'd go through human life like normal. There are some very specific and certain attributes that give it away but i wont spoil this one.

A simple example is enoch. They say enoch became metatron but humans cant simply evolve into angels directly. Rather enoch was already metatron who incarnated as a human.

No its not really my task in life, im just doing this as a side. Its like seeing an absolutely terrible situation and doing something on the side about it. Its not really my main thing but it still is a bit fun.

Once more you say something very interesting, as you have said that the incarnated Enoch was a spark of the "sleeping" Metatron which reunited with the collective of that angelic whole when he was "taken up."

Spoiler: huh

Another culturally insensitive teaching was that this same Enoch is equated with Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, Thoth, Hermes / Trimegistus, Esdras / Idris, among other givers and preservers of ancient knowledge and laws...

Another example is found in Elijah / Sandalphon... However, talking about these things is apt to get one labeled some kind of heretic or madman that is quick to be removed from participation, pun intended. Although I don't know what's worse, that or alluding to the idea that you're an angel incarnated in human form that is merely helping as an aside for fun. Haha.

 

[System Error Message]

You're easily one of the most interesting people encountered in groups/places like these.

Not withstanding some of the theological or philosophical debates that could be had on concepts such as free will and coercion... I would agree that "deities" are lesser than angels, regardless of cultural insensitivity, in the regard that most of the deities of the world are supposedly the "backside" of angels which are meant to watch, guide, and preside over the nations that make up the created world. Quoted from Sefer Shnei Lucot HaBrit, Torah ShBeKtav, Toldot, Torah Ohr 60:

"The significance of the number seventy is the number of Jacob's offspring that went down to Egypt (ref. Deut 32:8) which corresponded to the seventy spiritual representatives to the Gentile nations in the Heavenly Regions... The Kabbalists tell us that of the seventy princes, representatives at the Celestial Court / Heavenly Council we have mentioned, thirty five are perceived as lining up on the 'right' side of the emanations (i.e. sefirot), whereas the other thirty five are found on the 'left' side. Israel has a Sandhedrin, Supreme Court / Council of seventy judges corresponding to those seventy princes of the Gentile nations. The seventy princes of the Gentile nations are called 'other gods / deities' because those nations look up to them as their gods. This idea is alluded to when the angel (The prince of Esau - Samae"l) justifies Jacob being called Israel by saying 'You have fought / wrestled with the seventy deities of the Gentile nations.'"

You've said that Samael is not an angel because he was a seraph that slew his kin at the angelic council with a special weapon... How curious indeed... If only people could separate and recognize their mythologies and the world they presently inhabit.

Once more you say something very interesting, as you have said that the incarnated Enoch was a spark of the "sleeping" Metatron which reunited with the collective of that angelic whole when he was "taken up."

Spoiler: huh

Another culturally insensitive teaching was that this same Enoch is equated with Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, Thoth, Hermes / Trimegistus, Esdras / Idris, among other givers and preservers of ancient knowledge and laws...

Another example is found in Elijah / Sandalphon... However, talking about these things is apt to get one labeled some kind of heretic or madman that is quick to be removed from participation, pun intended. Although I don't know what's worse, that or alluding to the idea that you're an angel incarnated in human form that is merely helping as an aside for fun. Haha.

i dont care if your opinions are based on scriptures that are half right or if you would be considered a madman, i would love to hear your opinions on things.

to be exact not sure why the number 70 should be significant elsewhere. Always remember many beings arent native to our universe. The fall of angels or as you call them devils happened long before humans. I do have issue with how scripture tends to hide a lot or rather make up a lot of things.

 

[Morell]

i dont care if your opinions are based on scriptures that are half right or if you would be considered a madman, i would love to hear your opinions on things.

to be exact not sure why the number 70 should be significant elsewhere. Always remember many beings arent native to our universe. The fall of angels or as you call them devils happened long before humans. I do have issue with how scripture tends to hide a lot or rather make up a lot of things.

In your system I don't think they should be called angels, they seem rather as gods.

 

[System Error Message]

In your system I don't think they should be called angels, they seem rather as gods.

They are angels. the concept of god to angels and to other beings greatly differs than to how humans define them. Although angels vary hugely amongst one another and can be very powerful with all sorts of crazies, they still arent gods nor do they proclaim to be. To angels the concept of god is very very different, a being beyond creation and doesnt have the properties of creation. I had intended on writing out the concept of god elsewhere but i figured its going to take a while to get the concepts of something that isnt anything creation written down.

All i can say there are 3 major concepts the human definition breaks. God isnt that which is created, basically god does not exhibit anything of creation. God does not reject anything that is created (basically it doesnt matter what creature you are, you are not a sin or rejected). Religions break this by associating god with faith and rejecting the faithless or even differing people such as gays. After all all are created with equal stature. Lastly god does not ask anything of anyone so there is no real way to serve god and that would only demean what god is.

 

[Ayin_Ayin]

i dont care if your opinions are based on scriptures that are half right or if you would be considered a madman, i would love to hear your opinions on things.

to be exact not sure why the number 70 should be significant elsewhere. Always remember many beings arent native to our universe. The fall of angels or as you call them devils happened long before humans. I do have issue with how scripture tends to hide a lot or rather make up a lot of things.

They are angels. the concept of god to angels and to other beings greatly differs than to how humans define them.

All i can say there are 3 major concepts the human definition breaks. God isnt that which is created, basically god does not exhibit anything of creation. God does not reject anything that is created (basically it doesnt matter what creature you are, you are not a sin or rejected).

I don't think you actually want my or anyone else's opinion. You seem to be at odds with any ideas that are not in alignment with your own. That you consider the scriptures "half right" and accuse them of "making things up" when you yourself present ideas that you say you "know in a very sure way..." but "...cant reveal" how you know it, makes you hypocritical. No one can verify that you aren't merely making things up beyond, "I was a great being of knowledge in my past life and inherited my knowledge from then." And/or "Angels like some folks better than others, it's a problem if people knew why." But yes, do explain how you know that the scriptures are half-truths that are just "making things up."

You also seem to have a habit of assuming the beliefs of others. I don't recall asserting that any of these spiritual beings were "devils" as you have claimed above.

As for many beings not being native to our universe, the mystical Hebrew tradition accounts for this. Do bear in mind, there is a corpus of thousands of years of written and oral transmission that doesn't merely accept the plain reading of the English translated text, but also includes a plethora of interpretive mystical methods spanning various ancient and modern languages... some of which include the act of creation... so in that sense, I guess "making things up" takes on a different meaning... as is understood in this tradition.

Regardless, you don't appear to be versed in the various terms which relate to deity and its manifold expressions. This is a semantic issue, for example: Morrel appears to be pointing out that "Within your system" what you have pointed out as "angels" might better be pointed out as "gods." You obviously don't agree with this and have asserted above that "God" isn't created" nor "...exhibits anything of creation"

In the Hebrew mystical tradition, "god" or more specifically the term "Elohim אלהים" is a word which can be translated and interpreted as "God" "gods" or "powers." This can refer to the One transcendent God of the Hebrews, the gods of the nations, various angelic powers, or their earthly counterparts, etc. These are all expressions of deity which occur within/relative to the created universe/worlds, in regards to the term "Elohim."

Bear in mind that when I say "created universe" I am including those worlds which are beyond "our universe" but still within the realm of "existence - yeshut", to which the term "Elohim" is applicable, since "Elohim" is an attribute through which God (YHWH) acts in order to create, maintain, and interact with the created worlds/existence. Now, if we wanted to explicitly address the One God of the Hebrews we would use the "Shem HaMeforash - Explicit Name" which would be YHWH יהוה which alludes to the essence that acts through the attribute "Elohim - god." YHWH is typically assigned to the gamut of "heaven" or those worlds which are beyond "our world," spanning all the way beyond "existence - yeshut" to the ontological and concealed root of existence אהיה Ehyeh, which would appear analogous with your concept of God as beyond creation, not exhibiting anything of creation, but only pure being itself... Given that angels are extensions or expressions of YHWH/heaven, as far as the Hebrew tradition is concerned, it is difficult for some to track what's being addressed in what domain.

But again, this is all relevant to the Hebrew mystical tradition, including the scriptures, which you seem to prefer disregarding. For those that would like to learn more about it, I would refer you to Neirot.com where you can find free PDF's or purchase hard copies of De'ah Et HaShem - "The Knowledge of God" and Sha'arei Orah - "Gates of Light" which discuss these concepts and more.

 

[MorganBlack]

I'm pretty gnostic, anti-authoritarian, pretty neutral on the law-order continuum, and I tend to agree with Abammon here.

A major point of contention in modern magic, which I don't think we have a good way resolve because of magic fracturing into factions: sometimes in ritual some words are better and more effective than other words. They are usually the ones that have stood the test of time.

Take it as you will, but a member of the OTO at a body that was still using the more Thelemic names I gave up on long ago, said they would call the angels, who would come, but they would just stand around confused until they used the traditional names. Only the would they jump into action.

My own practices in an animist context confirms this to my satisfaction, that these more traditional names are "linked up" to something (I have my UPG here) , maybe even the Demiurge (by whatever name) , or the spirits and dead folks we think they are, and those words simply work better than random words when dealing spirits who expect humans to use those words.

And they may even come when those words are said out loud, like magicians keep saying. So sure. I agree hostile entities probably don't want you to know about these must dusty old words. Who needs the headache?

Even the spirits of the Grim Verum have told me to use the more Christians names when working formal by-the-book protocols n not because they "are" Christian I feel, but that's just the protocols they are used to and expect. I do think this is pretty fexible , at least in the abstract, but ritual precident goes a long long way.