First Word of the LRP

[Allofyoush]

Most traditions I've seen have the first word of the LRP as something like ATOH or ATEH. This is based off the word אתה in hebrew. The main phonetic form sounds closer to ATOH, but the Nekudoth (diacritical vowel marks) allow for ATEH is well (I'm not as educated on the nuances of those; I've only ever seen the pronunciation of ATOH in hebrew though).

However, that's not the core of my question, which is this: why isn't it the word LEKHAH (לך) instead? The word אתה generally translates to "you" while לך translates to "yours". So the LRP is currently saying "You are the kingdom, the strength, the greatness forever, amen" instead of "Yours are the kingdom, the strength, the greatness forever, amen.

Why is it currently ATOH instead of LEKHAH? What are the implications?

 

[Firetree]

It depends on what 'aspect 'of yourself is talking to what aspect of yourself .

'You are' - suggests a higher commanding aspect talking to the lower nature and encouraging that to 'lift up' itself , a bit like a magician might 'command' .

'I am ' suggests only one aspect exists and it is then more of an 'affirmation' .

 

[Allofyoush]

It depends on what 'aspect 'of yourself is talking to what aspect of yourself .

'You are' - suggests a higher commanding aspect talking to the lower nature and encouraging that to 'lift up' itself , a bit like a magician might 'command' .

'I am ' suggests only one aspect exists and it is then more of an 'affirmation' .

I assume it's just talking to the highest god possible for the practitioner. I envision it as confirming the kingship of God, not telling God that they are the sephiroth

 

[Lucien6493]

If you put Atoh in place of Lekhah in the Kaddish you would be blaspheming but I don't think either Mathers, or any of the original coterie, let alone Regardie, had any such scruples. Atoh in English is thou, which is straight up liturgical, but in Hebrew it is "You" which doesn't sound nearly as exalted. So, in the LBRP...Atoh (thou art) is "thine" referring to the divine within the operator even as the microprosopus was said to be the reflection of Adam Kadmon. So, yeah, I do think your suspicions are right on the nose, though there is room for interpretation. I don't use the LBRP at all, but I instinctively translate Atoh as Lekhah (in the possessive). I just can't help myself there.

 

[Allofyoush]

If you put Atoh in place of Lekhah in the Kaddish you would be blaspheming but I don't think either Mathers, or any of the original coterie, let alone Regardie, had any such scruples. Atoh in English is thou, which is straight up liturgical, but in Hebrew it is "You" which doesn't sound nearly as exalted. So, in the LBRP...Atoh (thou art) is "thine" referring to the divine within the operator even as the microprosopus was said to be the reflection of Adam Kadmon. So, yeah, I do think your suspicions are right on the nose, though there is room for interpretation. I don't use the LBRP at all, but I instinctively translate Atoh as Lekhah (in the possessive). I just can't help myself there.

Is that the Cross of Lorraine as your profile pic? I actually had a question regarding the LRP for that as well. It seems the Qabalistic cross incorporates Keter, Malkuth, Gevurah, and Chesed. Why not incorporate Hod and Netzach (like David does in the original Psalm) at the hips? This would still be a Qabalistic cross, but with an extra bar. The rest of the sephirot can also be added, but at that wouldn't technically be a cross anymore.

Also, is לעולם a stand-in for תפארת as well? Otherwise, why not use לעולם ועד אמן at the end and תפארת in the middle of the chest, just like with the MP. Essentially, the LRP could incorporate additional sephiroth within the middle pillar, but I don't understand why not.

 

[Yazata]

Maybe a similarity in sound to AThA (aleph thav aleph) is a reason. This word can translate as "come / join with"
That's how I pronounce it.

 

[Allofyoush]

Maybe a similarity in sound to AThA (aleph thav aleph) is a reason. This word can translate as "come / join with"
That's how I pronounce it.

Oh interesting. So you're saying it's not אתה but also אתא

 

[Lucien6493]

Is that the Cross of Lorraine as your profile pic? I actually had a question regarding the LRP for that as well. It seems the Qabalistic cross incorporates Keter, Malkuth, Gevurah, and Chesed. Why not incorporate Hod and Netzach (like David does in the original Psalm) at the hips? This would still be a Qabalistic cross, but with an extra bar. The rest of the sephirot can also be added, but at that wouldn't technically be a cross anymore.

Also, is לעולם a stand-in for תפארת as well? Otherwise, why not use לעולם ועד אמן at the end and תפארת in the middle of the chest, just like with the MP. Essentially, the LRP could incorporate additional sephiroth within the middle pillar, but I don't understand why not.

As far as I know, the Golden Dawn was going for sonic resonance whenever they used Hebrew, but neither Mathers nor Westcott could speak it, and they were absolutely not doing Kabbalah as that would have been understood by those who wrote/compiled the Zohar, for example. The GD was applying Kabbalistic terminology to a Christian doxology incorporated into a Hermetic theurgy that used the Tree of Life as a framework which could incorporate all and everything into a grand creative synthesis; a universal map of consciousness. Theological discrepancies were glossed over or made to fit after the fact. As far as praxis goes their use of Le Olam had implicit in it the devotional {"and ever, amen") as every Christian would have had it drilled into them from endless repetitions of the Our Father, but in the middle pillar they were not thinking in terms of QBL at all, rather in terms of what they knew, or thought they knew, of yoga.

Which brings us to the Cross of Lorraine, but I will have to get back to you on that...

 

[Allofyoush]

As far as I know, the Golden Dawn was going for sonic resonance whenever they used Hebrew, but neither Mathers nor Westcott could speak it, and they were absolutely not doing Kabbalah as that would have been understood by those who wrote/compiled the Zohar, for example. The GD was applying Kabbalistic terminology to a Christian doxology incorporated into a Hermetic theurgy that used the Tree of Life as a framework which could incorporate all and everything into a grand creative synthesis; a universal map of consciousness. Theological discrepancies were glossed over or made to fit after the fact. As far as praxis goes their use of Le Olam had implicit in it the devotional {"and ever, amen") as every Christian would have had it drilled into them from endless repetitions of the Our Father, but in the middle pillar they were not thinking in terms of QBL at all, rather in terms of what they knew, or thought they knew, of yoga.

Which brings us to the Cross of Lorraine, but I will have to get back to you on that...

You know some juicy stuff. Get back to me on that. I have a ton of questions as to why the rituals are formulated as such. Especially since I'm somewhat familiar with the lurianic tree opposing the hermetic one

 

[r4zorenigma]

It does not matter as much as you understanding what it is.. you are connecting the energies of Keter and the Most High , source of all creation, down to the physical Kingdom (malkuth) through a divine column of light.. As long as you keep that intention, the pronunciation of the word Ateh is not important..

 

[Aeternus]

Most traditions I've seen have the first word of the LRP as something like ATOH or ATEH. This is based off the word אתה in hebrew. The main phonetic form sounds closer to ATOH, but the Nekudoth (diacritical vowel marks) allow for ATEH is well (I'm not as educated on the nuances of those; I've only ever seen the pronunciation of ATOH in hebrew though).

However, that's not the core of my question, which is this: why isn't it the word LEKHAH (לך) instead? The word אתה generally translates to "you" while לך translates to "yours". So the LRP is currently saying "You are the kingdom, the strength, the greatness forever, amen" instead of "Yours are the kingdom, the strength, the greatness forever, amen.

Why is it currently ATOH instead of LEKHAH? What are the implications?

Seeing the last part of your post makes me think that the ritual words attribute the Kingdom, Strength and the Greatness forever to God as per the old ritual formulae at the time the text wad written. You can use Lekhah (לך) instead of Atoh or Ateh.

Both formulas, albeit with a different grammatical structure represent an adoration and appreciation formula to God.

 

[Allofyoush]

Seeing the last part of your post makes me think that the ritual words attribute the Kingdom, Strength and the Greatness forever to God as per the old ritual formulae at the time the text wad written. You can use Lekhah (לך) instead of Atoh or Ateh.

Both formulas, albeit with a different grammatical structure represent an adoration and appreciation formula to God.

Then how about adding in the sephiroth? I was even considering conjoining the LRP and MP into a "Greater MP" that goes normally but adds tiferet (and maybe Netzach and Hod) on the way up. I see the LRP as a request of energy, so it starts from malkuth and goes upward, while the MP starts at Eheyeh and goes downward. Doing both would complete a cycle of energy.

 

[Aeternus]

Then how about adding in the sephiroth? I was even considering conjoining the LRP and MP into a "Greater MP" that goes normally but adds tiferet (and maybe Netzach and Hod) on the way up. I see the LRP as a request of energy, so it starts from malkuth and goes upward, while the MP starts at Eheyeh and goes downward. Doing both would complete a cycle of energy.

That is a great idea to add the Sephiroth. Remember, the Sephiroth are Divine Emanations of God / The Source. Basically different facets of God.

You can add the Sephiroth in the LRP and MP. Also, remember that the formulae like this, unless the name of the entity called or specific space of the said entity is slightly altered (Hell instead of Heaven) etc., the formulae can be re-interpreted to suit the practitioners needs. It's like taking a look at various other old / ancient practices that got the necessary modern re-structuring.

The energy from Kether has to go through Binah though, in order for the Infinite Wisdom to be perceived in an understandable form.

 

[Allofyoush]

That is a great idea to add the Sephiroth. Remember, the Sephiroth are Divine Emanations of God / The Source. Basically different facets of God.

You can add the Sephiroth in the LRP and MP. Also, remember that the formulae like this, unless the name of the entity called or specific space of the said entity is slightly altered (Hell instead of Heaven) etc., the formulae can be re-interpreted to suit the practitioners needs. It's like taking a look at various other old / ancient practices that got the necessary modern re-structuring.

The energy from Kether has to go through Binah though, in order for the Infinite Wisdom to be perceived in an understandable form.

So basically I can just add all of them in place? Binah and CHochmah at the temples, tiferet at the chest, yesod at the genitals, and hod and netzach at the hips? I guess I don't necessarily understand their functions well enough to know what to withhold or include per se.

 

[Aeternus]

So basically I can just add all of them in place? Binah and CHochmah at the temples, tiferet at the chest, yesod at the genitals, and hod and netzach at the hips? I guess I don't necessarily understand their functions well enough to know what to withhold or include per se.

Yes, you can add all of them in place.

Chochmah represent Wisdom, Binah represents Understanding, Yesod represents the foundation, Hod Splendor (not like Tiferet), Netzach represents eternity, victory and perpetual endurance. Tiferet represents the Sun, the Higher Self, harmony, and spiritual beauty.

Placing Chochmah and Binah at the Temples is a great idea. Yesod has its place at the genitals, and hod and netzach can be placed at the hips.

 

[Lucien6493]

Really, if you want to connect ten nodes with twenty-two lines of force the Kabbalistic tree of life as it has come down to us is what you are going to end up drawing. Probably. Other configurations have been tried but it is really the only sane and stable way of doing it, which does not mean that said tree is a ladder consisting of three pillars. In fact if you look at the Tree of Life as a sphere you have Kether in Malkuth, Daath on Yesod, Binah in Hod, Chokmah in Netzach and Tiferet at the very center giving dimensionality via its two poles, Chesed and Gevurah, with the middle pillar becoming its axis, with every node an equal distance from the center where two infinities intersect, reflecting eternity. Moreover, the position of the letters/paths was never fixed. This (the spherical conception) actually has a lot of precedent in Hebrew Kabbalah which is not only recursive but profoundly relational, alive and like a kugel. Delicious too because we are not ascending in order to escape a fallen world but because Hashem's exhalation is our inhalation and we return it as tikkun olam right where we are. Hopefully after breakfast.

 

[Allofyoush]

Really, if you want to connect ten nodes with twenty-two lines of force the Kabbalistic tree of life as it has come down to us is what you are going to end up drawing. Probably. Other configurations have been tried but it is really the only sane and stable way of doing it, which does not mean that said tree is a ladder consisting of three pillars. In fact if you look at the Tree of Life as a sphere you have Kether in Malkuth, Daath on Yesod, Binah in Hod, Chokmah in Netzach and Tiferet at the very center giving dimensionality via its two poles, Chesed and Gevurah, with the middle pillar becoming its axis, with every node an equal distance from the center where two infinities intersect, reflecting eternity. Moreover, the position of the letters/paths was never fixed. This (the spherical conception) actually has a lot of precedent in Hebrew Kabbalah which is not only recursive but profoundly relational, alive and like a kugel. Delicious too because we are not ascending in order to escape a fallen world but because Hashem's exhalation is our inhalation and we return it as tikkun olam right where we are. Hopefully after breakfast.

I mean, the tree could be made into any shape, and the spheres moved in any direction. I just don't understand them and the paths well enough to manipulate them. I'm at the "just read it and do it" phase.

 

[Lucien6493]

It isn't about the paths or the spheres though. Because what are they? Not objects. The tree is not in space but consists of the relations and interactions between the forces that form and shape reality. So you could as well say that it is not you who moves the tree, but the tree that moves, and you are part of that movement. So, whether you do the MP or any other ritual you are putting yourself into relationship with the greater totality that lives and breathes through you. and as you. Intent is what carries you. The forces you are evoking...they are recursive. The tree reflects you as you move through your life, and you in turn reflect the tree. Do you grok?

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:07 PM

Think of the GD with its bad grammar and it's endless correspondences and color scales and angels and all the rest of it as interface....as ways of accessing the tree, not as parts of the tree itself. Like in pathworking. Take Vav, for example. You could spend a whole year with that one letter on the tree, or any of the letters, and relate your whole life to it, so that the glyph becomes your lived reality. Your habitation, mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually.

 

[Zero The Fool]

That is a great idea to add the Sephiroth. Remember, the Sephiroth are Divine Emanations of God / The Source. Basically different facets of God.

You can add the Sephiroth in the LRP and MP. Also, remember that the formulae like this, unless the name of the entity called or specific space of the said entity is slightly altered (Hell instead of Heaven) etc., the formulae can be re-interpreted to suit the practitioners needs. It's like taking a look at various other old / ancient practices that got the necessary modern re-structuring.

The energy from Kether has to go through Binah though, in order for the Infinite Wisdom to be perceived in an understandable form.

I think the idea of adding additional sephiroth to the QC may be missing the forest for the trees. The words of the QC are a qabalistic reinterpretation of the final words of the Lord's Prayer: "For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, forever and ever, amen."

 

[Allofyoush]

I think the idea of adding additional sephiroth to the QC may be missing the forest for the trees. The words of the QC are a qabalistic reinterpretation of the final words of the Lord's Prayer: "For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory, forever and ever, amen."

That originally comes from S'efer Divrei Hayamim chapter 29, sentence 11. Spoken by King David. There's a longer version with most of the rest of the Sephiroth.

לך יהוה הגדלה והגבורה והתפארת והנצח וההוד כי כל בשמים ובארץ לך יהוה הממלכה והמתנשא לכל לראש.

This is translated to:
"Yours, YHVH, are the greatness, the power, the glory, the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in heaven and on earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, YHVH, and You are exalted as head over all."