Inherited Magic

[mmertens]

Oh wow, so any world view revolving around blood or bloodlines is very dangerous, of course there is a truth hidden in there best described by reading joseph colbys book on breeding pit bull terriers, if you can understand all that, instructions on line breeding, you know what sumerians invented writing for, progress on to studies about rh negative blood factor. Be cautious, its a rabbit hole, with a few strands of truth, look for peer reviewed college research.in fact you might do better reading about ancient sumer.

 

[Grayhoss]

A lot of Witches are vehemently angry about this (see the Magick is a skillset!' posts), but I must be truthful. Indigenous Medicineworkers believe firmly that the ability to work with the Gods and Spirits is Their gift. Not everyone has it, or is ever meant to have it. Magick is a gift as much as an art, an inborn talent as much as a skillset.
This flies in the face of 'Everyone can do magick!' and similar Gardnerianisms; but bluntly, the 'Witchfather' larded his truths liberally with UPG.
Yes everyone can use magick..to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:28 AM

No one 'has' magic, that seems to be where you're getting stuck.
Magic is a skill set, like knitting or learning to sing.

Magick is also a gift and an inborn talent. Some are never fit to do more than lend paltry force to a 'congregational meeting' as the evangelicals call their Working groups. Its not just a matter of skill, the fundamental ability is lacking in some.

 

[Nembra]

A lot of Witches are vehemently angry about this (see the Magick is a skillset!' posts), but I must be truthful. Indigenous Medicineworkers believe firmly that the ability to work with the Gods and Spirits is Their gift. Not everyone has it, or is ever meant to have it. Magick is a gift as much as an art, an inborn talent as much as a skillset.
This flies in the face of 'Everyone can do magick!' and similar Gardnerianisms; but bluntly, the 'Witchfather' larded his truths liberally with UPG.
Yes everyone can use magick..to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

But art is, in fact, much more a skill than an inborn talent. Overwhelming majority of painter's or composer's work is simply applying the years of stydying craft, talent can at best provide motivation along the way and some extra aesthetic flair on top. Complete talentlessness is exactly as rare as exceptional genius. From my own proffesional field, majority of the population has the possibility to learn to sing or play an instrument at an intermediate level. Also, certainly every able-minded person can reach comfortable communication in several foreign languages, as illustrated by literally every developed, non-anglophone country under the Sun.

 

[Grayhoss]

The point in joining a discussion like this is to benefit readers, particularly beginners who might lack the ability to understand that what you're proposing is nonsense. Calling out that these ideas are drawn from fantasy fiction and your own imagination, might save people who are looking for something serious a lot of time.

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

But art is, in fact, much more a skill than an inborn talent. Overwhelming majority of painter's or composer's work is simply applying the years of stydying craft, talent can at best provide motivation along the way and some extra aesthetic flair on top. Complete talentlessness is exactly as rare as exceptional genius. From my own proffesional field, majority of the population has the possibility to learn to sing or play an instrument at an intermediate level. Also, certainly every able-minded person can reach comfortable communication in several foreign languages, as illustrated by literally every developed, non-anglophone country under the Sun.

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:41 AM

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

In closing, those who can do more, in the opinion of my tradition were born with a very special gift. Who gave it and why is a matter for each worker to discern for themself.
My father, when asked, said that foreign spirits and foreign tutelary Gods weren't any concern of his, their beneficiaries would have to seek their individual Paths, since his was only open to those born to Tribe and Nation.

 

[Nembra]

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

Well, I don't know how does that exactly work with magic, though I don't grant you that data necessary for such a discernment is available at all. My point was that metaphors you used are so patently missed they're making the exact opposite point to what you intended to say and even show a good line of argumentation against it by pointing towards the reasons for the popularity of this atrocious "innate talent" approach.

Personalities, which includes mental talents, are shaped not born into, by the way.

 

[Grayhoss]

Well, I don't know how does that exactly work with magic, though I don't grant you that data necessary for such a discernment is available at all. My point was that metaphors you used are so patently missed they're making the exact opposite point to what you intended to say and even show a good line of argumentation against it by pointing towards the reasons for the popularity of this atrocious "innate talent" approach.

Personalities, which includes mental talents, are shaped not born into, by the way.

In your opinion. Not everyone follows your philosophy. Lastly, if you can't be civil, I'd prefer you refrain from replying to my posts, Nembra.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Yes everyone can use magick... to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

This is true, but a bit of a stretch to the original (IMO incorrect) point that the talent is genetic in nature. Like I said earlier, you wouldn't say that someone who was really talented at woodworking had the 'woodwork gene'.

 

[Nembra]

In your opinion. Not everyone follows your philosophy. Lastly, if you can't be civil, I'd prefer you refrain from replying to my posts, Nembra.

Your apparent inability to emotionally handle disagreement has nothing to do with my civility. I'm not insulting you in any way.

What do you mean is "my opinion" here? The direct observations of world around me, my decades-long expertise in music or the scientific consensus among psychologists?

 

[ewiz]

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

Plenty of people have historically believed that the Earth is flat, or that it's only 6,000 years old, and there are many people today who believe this as well. People can believe in whatever nonsense they might like, but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical. And my comment was specific to the OPs proposed ideas, which do not come from any existing tradition, they were very clearly imagined as they were posted here. This thread was never asking what traditions exist to explain being born with magical ability; this thread set out to make-believe some sort of magic-race breeding with muggles and whether or not that would work or skip generations. The whole premise that those engaging with magic are in any way not human sets this up as nonsense from the start, and leaves it nowhere to go other than some wannabe Harry Potter LARP bullshit. In my opinion.

 

[Eldros]

Plenty of people have historically believed that the Earth is flat, or that it's only 6,000 years old, and there are many people today who believe this as well. People can believe in whatever nonsense they might like, but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical. And my comment was specific to the OPs proposed ideas, which do not come from any existing tradition, they were very clearly imagined as they were posted here. This thread was never asking what traditions exist to explain being born with magical ability; this thread set out to make-believe some sort of magic-race breeding with muggles and whether or not that would work or skip generations. The whole premise that those engaging with magic are in any way not human sets this up as nonsense from the start, and leaves it nowhere to go other than some wannabe Harry Potter LARP bullshit. In my opinion.

Man, you must be pretty lucky to have been born after Christopher Columbus, otherwise you might still be arguing that the Earth is flat.
It’s a fictional discussion, dude. Not everything has to come from some ancient tradition for people to have fun throwing ideas around. Calling it “nonsense” just because you don’t like the premise doesn’t really prove much.
And come on, I know what you’re doing. You’re just trying to get my posts thrown into the Tavern because you don’t like them. And honestly, it’s not exactly hard to smell a multi-account when one… then two… then three accounts suddenly pop up with the same energy.
You’re not being nearly as subtle as you think.

 

[ewiz]

Man, you must be pretty lucky to have been born after Christopher Columbus, otherwise you might still be arguing that the Earth is flat.
It’s a fictional discussion, dude. Not everything has to come from some ancient tradition for people to have fun throwing ideas around. Calling it “nonsense” just because you don’t like the premise doesn’t really prove much.
And come on, I know what you’re doing. You’re just trying to get my posts thrown into the Tavern because you don’t like them. And honestly, it’s not exactly hard to smell a multi-account when one… then two… then three accounts suddenly pop up with the same energy.
You’re not being nearly as subtle as you think.

I only have this one account smart guy. Multiple people just don't think the content you're posting belongs in the forums you're posting in lol. People who are here to actually talk about magic and not fuck off playing make-believe can spot your level of experience from miles away.

You've now said yourself, "it's a fictional discussion." Wonder where that kind of discussion belongs, dude.

 

[Eldros]

I only have this one account smart guy. Multiple people just don't think the content you're posting belongs in the forums you're posting in lol. People who are here to actually talk about magic and not fuck off playing make-believe can spot your level of experience from miles away.

You've now said yourself, "it's a fictional discussion." Wonder where that kind of discussion belongs, dude.

He watches others rise above,
Their success shining bright and free;
But envy grows within his heart,
For he wants what they have to be.

He hides his envy with a smile,
Pretending that he does not care;
Yet every time they reach the sky,
He wishes he were standing there.

 

[Frater M.M.]

This is true, but a bit of a stretch to the original (IMO incorrect) point that the talent is genetic in nature. Like I said earlier, you wouldn't say that someone who was really talented at woodworking had the 'woodwork gene'.

Let's stick to just physicalist frameworks for a minute.

Let's say your model is right and the “psi ability from certain physical genes is like having full-spectrum vision while people without those combinations are colour-blind” model we discussed earlier is wrong. In this case, I agree genetics, in the narrow sense relevant to this thread, probably isn't particularly relevant when we're comparing one human with another.

However, in the broader sense, your model still has to address genetics/biology at some level, IMO. Can apes do magic? Cats? Dolphins? Fish? Bees? Ants? Amoebas? If not, why not? What exactly is it about genetics and development that builds a brain/nervous system capable of magic?

And we can push it even further if we ask whether sufficiently complex silicon robots, LLMs or other AI systems etc. can do magic. If not, why not? What is it about "carbon" that "silicon" can't achieve? What is it about biological nervous systems that artificial systems can't reproduce?

Is this something you're addressing in the second edition or can your model already address these challenges?

 

[LionheartG]

Well to answer that question truthfully, requires a full understanding of the metaphysical world, that has not been discovered yet.
So all we can do is speculate.

• There are some bloodlines more genetically predisposed to have certain abilities than others. Some abilities lay dormant for generations, some are more common in part of the family lore. You see this with cunning people all over the world, no matter their ethnic background.
• Sometimes certain bloodlines are called and woken or chosen for whatever unknown reason for that time. There might be no history of any ability within that family and suddenly someone is randomly called or selected.

I would say if there is some ability, there is more of a probability that the family line might have more genetic predisposition for certain abilities but often this cannot be forced and will be activated at random. Sometimes this can be cultivated, other times it's a complete disaster.

This sort of thing reminds me of a book I read PSI Spies, which was about remote viewing and the US vs China when it came parapsychology. The U.S. feared a "psychic gap" worrying that if China or the Soviet Union successfully mastered remote viewing or psychokinesis, they could map out hidden American nuclear silos or intercept thoughts remotely. The Chinese formally launched an "X-Files"-style research initiative to investigate whether psychics could be utilized for intelligence operations and it seems like they tracked down people from certain bloodlines. Subjects displaying alleged supernatural abilities were brought to a People's Liberation Army (PLA) space research center in Beijing for rigorous testing. While the U.S. focused heavily on coordinates-based "remote viewing" using trained military personnel, China’s approach leaned heavily on finding individuals with innate somatic abilities, specifically children. It blew up in both the US and China's faces. However test subjects did display abilities: those who had natural magic that was innate and those who had been "trained." I would say there is no exact known method to magic's madness in the metaphysical and physical realms, and when those abilities decide to manifest themselves.

I can't prove it but I certainly think that maybe that's perhaps intentionally by design.

There is much we don't know about the spirit world, but I do know that certain keys are given when they are earned. I don't think humanity has been deemed worthy of that sort of knowledge to be frank.

 

[The Thaumaturge]

In my experience it is both an inherited aptitude and a skill/art form. Some people are born with a gift for it but because they never cultivate it stays as just that, a gift that let's them do strange things. Sufficient training and cultivation can produce literal wonders but it's the intersection that has the best results.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Let's stick to just physicalist frameworks for a minute.

Let's say your model is right and the “psi ability from certain physical genes is like having full-spectrum vision while people without those combinations are colour-blind” model we discussed earlier is wrong. In this case, I agree genetics, in the narrow sense relevant to this thread, probably isn't particularly relevant when we're comparing one human with another.

However, in the broader sense, your model still has to address genetics/biology at some level, IMO. Can apes do magic? Cats? Dolphins? Fish? Bees? Ants? Amoebas? If not, why not? What exactly is it about genetics and development that builds a brain/nervous system capable of magic?

I believe that the crucial factor is the ability to envisage counterfactuals; to manipulate one's internal view independently of sensory evidence. This is coupled with the human ability to create scaling events - the actions of a single person, or a small number of people, can disproportionately affect the world - or at the individual level, small changes in behaviour and outcomes can lead to disproportionate results.

Needless to say, an internal view of sufficient complexity is required - and we barely have any clue about each other, let alone other species. And if, say, dolphins do magic, we would never know without being able to ask them.

And we can push it even further if we ask whether sufficiently complex silicon robots, LLMs or other AI systems etc. can do magic. If not, why not? What is it about "carbon" that "silicon" can't achieve? What is it about biological nervous systems that artificial systems can't reproduce?

We don't have any artificial systems that are even remotely good enough for these questions to be asked about them. Unless you count the programmed behaviour of LLM's, fucking with your head as 'magic'.

Is this something you're addressing in the second edition or can your model already address these challenges?

I'm still working on it

 

[Frater M.M.]

I believe that the crucial factor is the ability to envisage counterfactuals; to manipulate one's internal view independently of sensory evidence. This is coupled with the human ability to create scaling events - the actions of a single person, or a small number of people, can disproportionately affect the world - or at the individual level, small changes in behaviour and outcomes can lead to disproportionate results.

Needless to say, an internal view of sufficient complexity is required - and we barely have any clue about each other, let alone other species. And if, say, dolphins do magic, we would never know without being able to ask them.

Very interesting. So humans are able to have a bigger impact on or scale up the effects of magic given they have language/books, internet, social media, institutions, culture, TV/radio, etc. But in theory, a dolphin could still magically nudge a fish towards it to eat if it were hungry and had the ability to envisage counterfactuals.

We don't have any artificial systems that are even remotely good enough for these questions to be asked about them. Unless you count the programmed behaviour of LLM's, fucking with your head as 'magic'.

Sure, but the reason I ask is to work out how much the brain leans on the underlying substrate (or even human brain development/genetics) for its lifting power in your model. And I suspect not that much is the answer.

I thought you were going to go down something like the Penrose/Hameroff route but it seems your answer is going to be more functional/organisational structure of a system (on the gross level of neurons, anyway).

So, to ask my question another way, I'll pinch/adapt a thought experiment from Chalmers. If we were to take a great magician (e.g. EAK) and gradually replace his neurons with silicon chips that are functionally equivalent, he wouldn't notice a dimming of his magical powers or a switching off? In fact, he wouldn't notice any change in his magical powers at all, even if every single neuron were to be replaced with silicon chips or whatever (according to your model)?

I'm still working on it

Fair enough Substance dualism models have had many years to explain how mind/spirit and matter interact and still haven't provided a solution (and property dualism models also have their own problems).

 

[Robert Ramsay]

So, to ask my question another way, I'll pinch/adapt a thought experiment from Chalmers. If we were to take a great magician (e.g. EAK) and gradually replace his neurons with silicon chips that are functionally equivalent, he wouldn't notice a dimming of his magical powers or a switching off? In fact, he wouldn't notice any change in his magical powers at all, even if every single neuron were to be replaced with silicon chips or whatever (according to your model)?

I think it's too much of a stretch to say that such a thing is possible. Like the p-zombie, it's a conceivability argument. Just because you can imagine it, it doesn't mean it's possible. Anil Seth gives the example that everyone can imagine a 747 flying backwards - but you will never see one because it's not possible. If someone demonstrates such a neuronal functional replacement, I'd be willing to consider changing my mind

But in theory, a dolphin could still magically nudge a fish towards it to eat if it were hungry and had the ability to envisage counterfactuals.

Yup, but how would we be able to tell?

Fair enough Substance dualism models have had many years to explain how mind/spirit and matter interact and still haven't provided a solution (and property dualism models also have their own problems).

My viewpoint is that dualism is time-wasting bullshit. If a thing has that many insoluble problems, maybe it's just wrong.

 

[Frater M.M.]

I think it's too much of a stretch to say that such a thing is possible. Like the p-zombie, it's a conceivability argument. Just because you can imagine it, it doesn't mean it's possible. Anil Seth gives the example that everyone can imagine a 747 flying backwards - but you will never see one because it's not possible.

Yeah, for sure, I think it would be fair for the physicalist to push back here. It's logically possible that a spaceship could go faster than the speed of light (in some other universe with different laws) but it isn't nomologically/physically possible in our universe.

I guess you could push back even further and say p-zombies are logically impossible and to entertain them is to be fooled as if we were to say we could imagine a 4-sided triangle.

However, I was just asking to see where your model was going. So as we said before somewhere in this thread, right now for you, the brain and possibly neurons or micro features of neurons could well be doing the heavy lifting in terms of helping you travel the multiverse to your destination. So I guess genetics is kind of relevant in a broad sense in helping to develop the brain but it's not really that central to your model. It's more a case of explaining the physical mechanism the developed brain uses to travel.

If someone demonstrates such a neuronal functional replacement, I'd be willing to consider changing my mind

That's also fair. I think the issue has become too complicated (both consciousness and magic) to solve it purely from the armchair without at least looking at empirical data.

Yup, but how would we be able to tell?

Well, I dunno as I can't speak dolphin either

However, I was just trying to find the limits of your model. I like the fact that you would allow the possibility of dolphins doing magic (given the right faculties). This seems internally consistent to me.

My viewpoint is that dualism is time-wasting bullshit. If a thing has that many insoluble problems, maybe it's just wrong.

That's cool. You sound broadly like an emergentist/non-reductive physicalist (a bit like Searle with his biological naturalism IIRC). Personally, when I last looked at the mind-body debate (many years ago), none of the solutions adequately answered the problem for me. They all had flaws. That said, I probably wouldn't spend years of my life writing a book to repair substance dualism philosophically either.

If I were forced to put money on it I'd probably go for some kind of property dualist or maybe idealist framework. But it's hard to say. It's why we need more theoretical magicians like you to map out these different models

 

[Kepler]

What would happen to a child of a witch or wizard and an ordinary person?

There are more possibilities - either the child will have magic but may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation...
The child can have no or very weak manifestation of the magical power or he might become a strong magician.
Let us consider one possible scenario - the witch gives birth to her daughter from a human. The daughter does have some magic but is quite weak. After that the girl gives birth to her son from a human too, and the son lacks any magic manifestation. But then his daughter begins to show some magical abilities.
So, magic can skip a generation and reappear later.

What do you think? Can it skip a generation, or does it disappear if a witch/wizard has a child with a human?

Besides eugenic ideas with a hierarchical subtext, there's also implied in the question the hypothetical condition of a moonchild whose own nature may have magical qualities that aren't inherited from a parent.
Even with a natural inclination an individual's nurturing environmental conditions influencing psychological development will form into challenges that eventually need to be overcome to move past useful automatic psychological guidelines created during early development.