Inherited Magic

[mmertens]

Oh wow, so any world view revolving around blood or bloodlines is very dangerous, of course there is a truth hidden in there best described by reading joseph colbys book on breeding pit bull terriers, if you can understand all that, instructions on line breeding, you know what sumerians invented writing for, progress on to studies about rh negative blood factor. Be cautious, its a rabbit hole, with a few strands of truth, look for peer reviewed college research.in fact you might do better reading about ancient sumer.

 

[Grayhoss]

A lot of Witches are vehemently angry about this (see the Magick is a skillset!' posts), but I must be truthful. Indigenous Medicineworkers believe firmly that the ability to work with the Gods and Spirits is Their gift. Not everyone has it, or is ever meant to have it. Magick is a gift as much as an art, an inborn talent as much as a skillset.
This flies in the face of 'Everyone can do magick!' and similar Gardnerianisms; but bluntly, the 'Witchfather' larded his truths liberally with UPG.
Yes everyone can use magick..to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:28 AM

No one 'has' magic, that seems to be where you're getting stuck.
Magic is a skill set, like knitting or learning to sing.

Magick is also a gift and an inborn talent. Some are never fit to do more than lend paltry force to a 'congregational meeting' as the evangelicals call their Working groups. Its not just a matter of skill, the fundamental ability is lacking in some.

 

[Nembra]

A lot of Witches are vehemently angry about this (see the Magick is a skillset!' posts), but I must be truthful. Indigenous Medicineworkers believe firmly that the ability to work with the Gods and Spirits is Their gift. Not everyone has it, or is ever meant to have it. Magick is a gift as much as an art, an inborn talent as much as a skillset.
This flies in the face of 'Everyone can do magick!' and similar Gardnerianisms; but bluntly, the 'Witchfather' larded his truths liberally with UPG.
Yes everyone can use magick..to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

But art is, in fact, much more a skill than an inborn talent. Overwhelming majority of painter's or composer's work is simply applying the years of stydying craft, talent can at best provide motivation along the way and some extra aesthetic flair on top. Complete talentlessness is exactly as rare as exceptional genius. From my own proffesional field, majority of the population has the possibility to learn to sing or play an instrument at an intermediate level. Also, certainly every able-minded person can reach comfortable communication in several foreign languages, as illustrated by literally every developed, non-anglophone country under the Sun.

 

[Grayhoss]

The point in joining a discussion like this is to benefit readers, particularly beginners who might lack the ability to understand that what you're proposing is nonsense. Calling out that these ideas are drawn from fantasy fiction and your own imagination, might save people who are looking for something serious a lot of time.

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

But art is, in fact, much more a skill than an inborn talent. Overwhelming majority of painter's or composer's work is simply applying the years of stydying craft, talent can at best provide motivation along the way and some extra aesthetic flair on top. Complete talentlessness is exactly as rare as exceptional genius. From my own proffesional field, majority of the population has the possibility to learn to sing or play an instrument at an intermediate level. Also, certainly every able-minded person can reach comfortable communication in several foreign languages, as illustrated by literally every developed, non-anglophone country under the Sun.

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:41 AM

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

In closing, those who can do more, in the opinion of my tradition were born with a very special gift. Who gave it and why is a matter for each worker to discern for themself.
My father, when asked, said that foreign spirits and foreign tutelary Gods weren't any concern of his, their beneficiaries would have to seek their individual Paths, since his was only open to those born to Tribe and Nation.

 

[Nembra]

I disagree. The majority of people aren't capable of doing more, magically than subordinating their will to a charismatic leader and being bilked in return for each 'miracle' built on their contribution as a Working group. Usually for ill as in all those 'prayers to "seal a child to God" that take years to fully shed for the target, who doesn't happen to want to spend their life 'sealed to' said faith.

Well, I don't know how does that exactly work with magic, though I don't grant you that data necessary for such a discernment is available at all. My point was that metaphors you used are so patently missed they're making the exact opposite point to what you intended to say and even show a good line of argumentation against it by pointing towards the reasons for the popularity of this atrocious "innate talent" approach.

Personalities, which includes mental talents, are shaped not born into, by the way.

 

[Grayhoss]

Well, I don't know how does that exactly work with magic, though I don't grant you that data necessary for such a discernment is available at all. My point was that metaphors you used are so patently missed they're making the exact opposite point to what you intended to say and even show a good line of argumentation against it by pointing towards the reasons for the popularity of this atrocious "innate talent" approach.

Personalities, which includes mental talents, are shaped not born into, by the way.

In your opinion. Not everyone follows your philosophy. Lastly, if you can't be civil, I'd prefer you refrain from replying to my posts, Nembra.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Yes everyone can use magick... to some degree. 'Everyone' can also be taught to plunk out 'Chopsticks' or speak kindergartner's-level foreign languages. That doesn't mean they have the talent and ability to get very far with it.

This is true, but a bit of a stretch to the original (IMO incorrect) point that the talent is genetic in nature. Like I said earlier, you wouldn't say that someone who was really talented at woodworking had the 'woodwork gene'.

 

[Nembra]

In your opinion. Not everyone follows your philosophy. Lastly, if you can't be civil, I'd prefer you refrain from replying to my posts, Nembra.

Your apparent inability to emotionally handle disagreement has nothing to do with my civility. I'm not insulting you in any way.

What do you mean is "my opinion" here? The direct observations of world around me, my decades-long expertise in music or the scientific consensus among psychologists?

 

[ewiz]

In your opinion only. There are plenty of spiritual traditions in animism and shamanism that disagree vehemently.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:37 AM

Plenty of people have historically believed that the Earth is flat, or that it's only 6,000 years old, and there are many people today who believe this as well. People can believe in whatever nonsense they might like, but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical. And my comment was specific to the OPs proposed ideas, which do not come from any existing tradition, they were very clearly imagined as they were posted here. This thread was never asking what traditions exist to explain being born with magical ability; this thread set out to make-believe some sort of magic-race breeding with muggles and whether or not that would work or skip generations. The whole premise that those engaging with magic are in any way not human sets this up as nonsense from the start, and leaves it nowhere to go other than some wannabe Harry Potter LARP bullshit. In my opinion.

 

[Eldros]

Plenty of people have historically believed that the Earth is flat, or that it's only 6,000 years old, and there are many people today who believe this as well. People can believe in whatever nonsense they might like, but that doesn't make it any less nonsensical. And my comment was specific to the OPs proposed ideas, which do not come from any existing tradition, they were very clearly imagined as they were posted here. This thread was never asking what traditions exist to explain being born with magical ability; this thread set out to make-believe some sort of magic-race breeding with muggles and whether or not that would work or skip generations. The whole premise that those engaging with magic are in any way not human sets this up as nonsense from the start, and leaves it nowhere to go other than some wannabe Harry Potter LARP bullshit. In my opinion.

Man, you must be pretty lucky to have been born after Christopher Columbus, otherwise you might still be arguing that the Earth is flat.
It’s a fictional discussion, dude. Not everything has to come from some ancient tradition for people to have fun throwing ideas around. Calling it “nonsense” just because you don’t like the premise doesn’t really prove much.
And come on, I know what you’re doing. You’re just trying to get my posts thrown into the Tavern because you don’t like them. And honestly, it’s not exactly hard to smell a multi-account when one… then two… then three accounts suddenly pop up with the same energy.
You’re not being nearly as subtle as you think.

 

[ewiz]

Man, you must be pretty lucky to have been born after Christopher Columbus, otherwise you might still be arguing that the Earth is flat.
It’s a fictional discussion, dude. Not everything has to come from some ancient tradition for people to have fun throwing ideas around. Calling it “nonsense” just because you don’t like the premise doesn’t really prove much.
And come on, I know what you’re doing. You’re just trying to get my posts thrown into the Tavern because you don’t like them. And honestly, it’s not exactly hard to smell a multi-account when one… then two… then three accounts suddenly pop up with the same energy.
You’re not being nearly as subtle as you think.

I only have this one account smart guy. Multiple people just don't think the content you're posting belongs in the forums you're posting in lol. People who are here to actually talk about magic and not fuck off playing make-believe can spot your level of experience from miles away.

You've now said yourself, "it's a fictional discussion." Wonder where that kind of discussion belongs, dude.

 

[Eldros]

I only have this one account smart guy. Multiple people just don't think the content you're posting belongs in the forums you're posting in lol. People who are here to actually talk about magic and not fuck off playing make-believe can spot your level of experience from miles away.

You've now said yourself, "it's a fictional discussion." Wonder where that kind of discussion belongs, dude.

He watches others rise above,
Their success shining bright and free;
But envy grows within his heart,
For he wants what they have to be.

He hides his envy with a smile,
Pretending that he does not care;
Yet every time they reach the sky,
He wishes he were standing there.

 

[Frater M.M.]

This is true, but a bit of a stretch to the original (IMO incorrect) point that the talent is genetic in nature. Like I said earlier, you wouldn't say that someone who was really talented at woodworking had the 'woodwork gene'.

Let's stick to just physicalist frameworks for a minute.

Let's say your model is right and the “psi ability from certain physical genes is like having full-spectrum vision while people without those combinations are colour-blind” model we discussed earlier is wrong. In this case, I agree genetics, in the narrow sense relevant to this thread, probably isn't particularly relevant when we're comparing one human with another.

However, in the broader sense, your model still has to address genetics/biology at some level, IMO. Can apes do magic? Cats? Dolphins? Fish? Bees? Ants? Amoebas? If not, why not? What exactly is it about genetics and development that builds a brain/nervous system capable of magic?

And we can push it even further if we ask whether sufficiently complex silicon robots, LLMs or other AI systems etc. can do magic. If not, why not? What is it about "carbon" that "silicon" can't achieve? What is it about biological nervous systems that artificial systems can't reproduce?

Is this something you're addressing in the second edition or can your model already address these challenges?