Honestly, what is the point of incarnation?

[NightWatchman95]

What makes you say that?

information can not be created or destroyed, only change forms, you still exist, just in a different state of energy.

 

[MidnightProphet]

Incarnation ? Non existent. You never die. You just forget. Nobody dies. 333333

True! And it's called reincarnation!

 

[Kepler]

To me the point is about adjusting the vector and cohesion of the soul through upstream thoughts that align with astronomical relationships. In terms of astral, living celestial mythic metaphor, as a product of the thoughts of biological life, an information carrier in the cosmic soul, that keeps cohesion itself when in correspondence with the natural world even without interaction while discarnate. Truth, a basis of ethics.

Underlying that is a broader point about all biological life informing the cosmic soul/mind and natural selection.

 

[ArchonLynx]

We just here just like ants are just here humans just like to think they special that's all

You will endlessly be here no escape for anyone.

 

[PinealisGlandia]

I'd really appreciate someone answering OP's post in the context of infant mortality. Answering reincarnation questions is easy for people who live to adulthood, but my daughter died at 22 months a few years ago and I'm stumped on the point of incarnating for such a brief stint.

 

[tornribbon1402]

I'd really appreciate someone answering OP's post in the context of infant mortality. Answering reincarnation questions is easy for people who live to adulthood, but my daughter died at 22 months a few years ago and I'm stumped on the point of incarnating for such a brief stint.

i'm so so sorry for you :c have a virtual hug

 

[JGVDRG]

In my perspective, we are inside a realm where we are servants, underdogs, slaves, puppets, whatever you name it, to a hierarchical cosmic system. The chosen terminology is not relevant. The material world is some sort of sandbox. A prison to shape your (originally indomitable) soul, so we are trained, after countless incarnations, to become gradually more obedient, domesticated, tamed, jaded, compliant. So we can get comfortable with being controlled by external circumstances, never being ensured of anything, while constantly sacrificing everything. So we get used to slowly dissolve into collective thought-forms and eventually let go of our ancient memory that contains the story of what actually happened to us. You could deduce this by observing reality's mechanisms. None of this is set to make your way any easier if your interests are not aligned with the hive. If you are, the process gets incredibly simpler. Just let your individuality go and blend in.

There is an inherent purpose for the creation of this world and the cosmos around us. It is a representation of the creator's mind and we cannot scrutinize it sufficiently, because we are set to be inferior, limited and inside it's reflection. Which already tells us a lot. We can only see the effects of an (almost) inscrutable cause. We are never quite adapted to the contingencies, of course, because we are conscious rational beings, exceptions to the nature around us, so we perceive the flaws, the disparities, the unbearable imbalance between Will and the fabricated reality.

This points to the inference that we might have originated elsewhere, so we were trapped and modified, not created. Human consciousness is an anomaly compared to this universe. Humans can be ethically superior to the phenomena around them (the material universe has no space for mercy, pondering, charity, love, etc.), so, if the cosmos is a representation of the creator's will, we are also potentially ethically superior to the creator itself, who've created abhorrent mechanisms to ensure the maintenance of it's own system (incarnation and reincarnation are good examples of it, along with pain, suffering and sorrow). All myths (I know) revolving the creation of the universe eventually stumbles upon some sort of tragic mistake, error or misleading process that made us descend into this place. All of the good aspects of this world are reflections of our own virtues. Other creatures cannot appreciate the beauty of this world. Only rational minds could do so, only minds of a creator could do so. Even our depiction of a gracious God, a heaven, a plethora of benevolent angels: merely the reflection of our own virtue and ethical superiority to the creation and the creator itself. A glimpse of our own nature, in contrast with the external nature of matter, collective behavior and expected human endeavors (working, building civilization, surviving, etc.).

So, our purpose? I guess it is entirely based on choice, although the rule set doesn't collaborate with us any more than to make us increasingly weaker and subservient. So you could go with the flow and get finally assimilated, forgetting all about who you actually are, to let your ego die along with your autonomy and serve the game, or you could reverse engineer your way out of it solo. Magic is one of the ways you can do both types of alchemy. To accelerate your process of dissolution, which is the expected, easier path. Or to escape the cosmic process, or to take your revenge against it, or to transcend the whole process as an individual being. Or other processes I'm not familiar with.

 

[hiramabiff]

I know you come to earth to experience, spiritually evolve and learn, but I supposed often I feel quite a bit disheartened and disappointed by the whole experience of being here, because I feel as such, I mean I'm not really stagnating, but I sometimes do because the things that the earth values don't really feel like the things that I value, or the best place to be for my spiritual evolution. I mean, I'm going to be straight, it's not very focused on things such as charity, kindness, serving others which has brought me satisfaction and growth and being on in a realm which prioritizes profit and material comforts seems to be rather counter-active towards my spiritual growth, and I wonder if this is really the best place to be incarnated in?

I mean, I'm not getting down on myself, and honestly, not to get too new agey. What do you consider to be the purpose of incarnation? Do you just come to evolve so you can access higher planes of the astral realm in-between lives where things feel and look prettier? Isn't that sort of pointless too in the large scale of everything? I mean, I wouldn't call the astral realm to be illusionary, because it's described as feeling and being more real than this realm, but sometimes I wonder, what is the point of everything?

In my opinion, the meaning of existence is no meaning at all. You believe in meaning because you were programmed to believe in it. The point of reincarnation is to believe, suffer, and discover things that are absent in your current life. Perhaps you'll reincarnate into lives or things that are experienced repeatedly, but what's special is how you'll perceive and interpret them. Whether it's meaningful or meaningless, that's up to you. It may feel meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but the chances of not being self-aware in other lives are quite high. So I would say, cherish this current life because you're aware of things that most people are not.

 

[JGVDRG]

the meaning of existence is no meaning at all. You believe in meaning because you were programmed to believe in it.

If we were programmed to believe, in fact, if we were programmed at all, then there must be an objective or at least intention within the mind of whom have programmed us or any lifeform. Then instead of fabricating meaning, we could in fact deduce intention, objective, purpose behind the creation of which we are a part of and act based on our own conclusions. Then our action is full of actual meaning, instead of fantasy.

the chances of not being self-aware in other lives are quite high.

In the material universe, perhaps. I wouldn't call becoming materialized the epitome of elevation. So if that happens with the soul you might as well want the experience to be not only void of self-awareness but pretty close to non-sentience.

So I would say, cherish this current life because you're aware of things that most people are not.

If this didn't draw the soul to fully indulge itself into cycles of reincarnations, I would agree. After countless repetitions of the same process, the "novelty and rarity" of material life ends up losing it's bright. The world renews it's mechanisms and the gained virtues goes along with our departure, so...why cherish this current life instead of aiming beyond (100%)?

 

[hiramabiff]

In my view of reincarnation, you lose all the programming you once had in past lives and start anew from a point of zero. Like I said, the cyclical programming we are endowed with has no meaning, objectively speaking. Indeed, it may seem futile to "cherish" this life because, like you said, novelty and rarity lose their value because of eternal recurrence. However, it's because you are first introduced to this self-awareness that you begin to "value" it. I remain agnostic whether or not I was a philosopher or an ignorant man in my past life, and to me, that's the beauty of it. I lost all my progress in achieving the mysteries of the unknown, but here I am, reabsorbing the knowledge needed to aim beyond. So in my opinion, loss and the realization of uniqueness are a part of this programming. Additionally, I believe that we may never reach an "objective" conclusion to our lives, since the things we have been programmed to think, say, and act play a significant role. From childbirth to death, we, unfortunately, don't get a say in how we desire our programming to look.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

From childbirth to death, we, unfortunately, don't get a say in how we desire our programming to look.

This part feels a bit pessimistic. As sentient and Free Willing creatures, do we not have the ability to look at ourselves, recognize our programming, and change it however we wish? I'm not sure how familiar you are with the LHP, but there are practices out there where a being can cast off the programming of their current incarnation and Will something creatively unique and new, not defined or limited by anything material.

 

[hiramabiff]

You are right that we are sentient and free-willing creatures. However, isn't it contradictory to say that we are truly free, considering how our past programming has shaped our morals, perception, and desires? Whether it's chaos or ceremonial magick that helps one change their perception and programming, the psychological coding that helped construct the self you knew before the change helped in reforming the new you. According to Feuerbach, the entities or gods that you revere are a reflection of what you see as perfect or desirable. I don't think it's possible to pull a tabula rasa and then quickly start from scratch after being self-aware for the first time. To put it in a few words, your past psychology significantly contributed to your new psychology. So, to say that we get to pick our new programming without the help of the old one is a bit of an understatement.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

isn't it contradictory to say that we are truly free, considering how our past programming has shaped our morals, perception, and desires?

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

Your past programming does not create the Self, the Hermetic Principle of Mental Gender explains this very clearly, if you're Hermetic. You are a dual being, an ego (which you're assuming is the whole of being, that which is programmed), and a fragment of conscious awareness, the thing that is aware, the observer and source of Thelemic WILL.


The ego is programmed, that's it's nature, and most people never come into contact with their Will and are instead daydreaming dolts that move mindlessly with the currents of reality.

The solution to this contradiction is complete destruction of the previous programming, the Latin phrased blank slate, the destruction of all morals, desires, biases, attachments, preconceptions, etc. Reaching this blank slate is is an early part of the Alchemical process, if you don't think it's possible, you have my pity, and there is no need to continue discussion, as your limiting belief in what's possible are the walls to your mausoleum, they're unyielding and no amount of truth can penetrate them.

 

[JGVDRG]

Additionally, I believe that we may never reach an "objective" conclusion to our lives, since the things we have been programmed to think, say, and act play a significant role. From childbirth to death, we, unfortunately, don't get a say in how we desire our programming to look.

All in all, an interesting take on reincarnation. I would say that one of the points of applying esoteric knowledge is exactly to tamper with those predetermined factors about ourselves. It's complicated to talk about magic without having the conviction that one can alter external 'reality', much more complicated if one doesn't even consider the effectiveness of altering one's Ego. But yes, there are variables and there are constants. One must be witty enough to work with the given material and achieve the desired prospects. Cheers.

 

[hiramabiff]

Perhaps we mixed terms on what "programming" is. I agree that ego is indeed reprogrammable, but the inner self I doubt so. I never claimed that the past programming creates the Self; it influences it. I did not apply Hermetic principles to my ideas, which is probably why we sparked this confusion. What I'm trying to say, in accordance with psychology, the ego, which you have newly constructed, is influenced by the old one, which is also influenced by the inner self. The things in which you desire were hidden in the old self, such as morals, needs, or relationships. To me, I don't believe in this "divine will" that is within us. And the tabula rasa, I didn't claim that it is impossible to start from scratch, I stated that it takes progress to reprogram yourself anew. Whether you claim that you have transcended your ego to achieve this divine will is up to personal belief. In my opinion, I believe that everybody has an ego, no matter how insignificant it may seem. What you are, how you view yourself, is the ego. Arguing over personal beliefs won't contribute to a fixed conclusion. As for the last sentence, I do think it's possible to reach one's full potential, but not in the way of Hermeticism or Thelemic philosophy, as following beliefs, in my opinion, slows the progress. I respect and thank you for this conversation, if you do not wish to proceed with further discussions.

Post automatically merged: Jun 25, 2025

All in all, an interesting take on reincarnation. I would say that one of the points of applying esoteric knowledge is exactly to tamper with those predetermined factors about ourselves. It's complicated to talk about magic without having the conviction that one can alter external 'reality', much more complicated if one doesn't even consider the effectiveness of altering one's Ego. But yes, there are variables and there are constants. One must be witty enough to work with the given material and achieve the desired prospects. Cheers.

Thank you for our discussion! It's hard out in the real world to find people who share the same ideas. Cheers!

 

[Zord]

Understanding the embodiment of the human soul in the World, namely the questions: Why was I born? For what purpose?, Why? Man will never know the true answers to these questions.

I think the whole problem is that man has delved too deeply into the search without even knowing what. Are they looking for some ancient knowledge, from whom are they looking?

The Mayans have disappeared, the Romans have been conquered by the barbarians, the Atlanteans, the Nubians, the Aztecs... The list can go on and on. Where is their super knowledge?

So it turns out that people are looking for something, not knowing what, from civilizations that could not preserve themselves.

Perhaps you will be interested in the following real story. As is known, mathematics is probably the most rigorous science in the field of human knowledge. And so the mathematical community decided to derive a formula capable of describing and linking all sections together. But they experienced a real shock when Kurt Gödel proved the "Incompleteness Theorem", namely that "Every system of mathematical axioms, starting from a certain level of complexity, is either internally contradictory or incomplete."

This statement also applies to religion and other areas of human life.

If translated into human language, it means that:

- Any of our principles, any system of views, starting from a certain level, becomes internally contradictory or incomplete. The process of cognition is endless. The world cannot be fully understood until we reach the original source.

- The more answers a person has to certain questions, the more questions will arise.

- The questions will become more and more complicated, and it will be more difficult to get answers.

The Incompleteness Theorem directly indicates the limitations of our brain. A person will never know the truth in its entirety without reaching the source of knowledge.

Considering this issue from the point of view of reincarnation does not make sense at all.​

 

[TLStone]

The point is as simple as “to be” in my understanding, giving you the option to find your own personal purpose. Don’t look outside of yourself for a reason to exist. Mine is to love my family and to become whole and live in harmony with nature on a zoomed in level, and to just inject any good I can into the world in a more zoomed out bigger picture. I definitely understand the hopelessness feeling when looking into the void, but you can work your way out of that mindset with real effort.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

to become whole

I'm curious what you would define this as, could you elaborate on this point?

Very wholesome perspective overall, it's sweet. I pray the conflicts of Lords never provoke the knights to come and burn down your village.

 

[Shade]

I'd really appreciate someone answering OP's post in the context of infant mortality. Answering reincarnation questions is easy for people who live to adulthood, but my daughter died at 22 months a few years ago and I'm stumped on the point of incarnating for such a brief stint.

My condolences, but some souls perhaps choose to reincarnate knowing their fate and then we get the veil put on, the point of reincarnation in an instance like that very well could be to help you along your path, life is an alchemical process and it is rough, we need to break apart all the pieces, refine them and put them back together.
I can’t imagine how much this experience broke you, but in that breaking it changed the whole course of your life. You have the ability to transmute the negative emotions you experienced.
so the point of reincarnation is to help others refine the physical to become more like the divine divine in an ever growing process. As to why we choose to go through this?

Maybe it was as the gnostics suggest, a big mistake that the division occurred and we on a soul level want to help remedy it but we are born blind, we are basically saklas or the blind god that the gnostics speak about and it is due to the demiurge or false god that we are born with these blinders. We don’t wrestle against flesh and blood but the principalities of darkness.

the above is like that which is below, we are in a cosmic clock and perhaps the outcome has already been decided, perhaps it’s already been loved and we are born to experience a life that’s already been lived?

idk just some things to think over and it may give you a different perspective, if not now then maybe in time. My sincere condolences.

 

[TLStone]

I'm curious what you would define this as, could you elaborate on this point?

Very wholesome perspective overall, it's sweet. I pray the conflicts of Lords never provoke the knights to come and burn down your village.

Sorry it took so long to reply, but by becoming whole I really mean becoming more conscious of my whole self, shadow and everything hidden from myself over time, and to accept it all fully and have full power over all (as “all” as possible) parts of myself.