Are demonized pagan gods of the Goetia their own being or apart of the original deity?

[MorganBlack]

ratfucked representation of the original spirits

Da hell?

I’ve used the GV since the 1990s, not the Lesser Key, but even "ratfucked" or not the LK spirits are still teaching magicians the arts and sciences, logic, ethics, and eloquence.

Funny, as a Grimorium Verum practitioner, I originally felt exactly the same way about the WitchTok Demonolators when they first arrived about ten years ago. I was afraid the demons' fangs, balls, and dignity would be castrated. I wanted the daimons, and still do, as the Strange Other. At first I was like, 'Great, now we have to wade through this added astral layer made of effete LARPing simp effluvia before we can reach the actual daimonic intelligences. Thank God I had my allies before they came along to piss in the astral pool.'

I have more inclusive models now how it may work, but it turns out, it’s all far more synergistic than my earlier more linear, single-telephone line model.

So there’s a magician/author who has pacted with Bune since about 2004, long before the WitchTokBLARGotry theatre kids were around. With all the added minds - even with their weak-willed performativity - the "Office" called Bune just takes their energy (meaning their added attention, the coin of the spirit realm) and comes through even stronger for the grim trad magican now. Perhaps the riitualized astral UI/UX of the Lesser Key is even stronger as well?. We are, in that sense , making all the layers and manifestation of the Office of Bune, and the other daimons, at the same time. WithTokers can have their Cuddle-bunny Beelzebuth , while I have my Death Beelzebuth. It's all good.

 

[sahgwa]

So theres the comparative mythology/religious studies approach that traces them as a lineage of old gods demonized by the church... and then theres actually interfacing with them through evocation. I can guarantee you that what ever you come into contact with using goetia proper is not a diety and is a demon by its nature. How that works I am not sure, but when you use solomonic magic to evoke Ashteroth it is not the same thing that you experience when you work with the goddess Astarte.

Maybe it's the difference between riding the bus and getting hit by the bus.
They are both the bus. But they are different aspects and energies of the bus.

 

[Kepler]

In the Ars Goetia some of the demons are bastardized pagan gods (ex. Ashtaroth = Astarte, IPOs = Anubis, Haures - Horus, etc) so would that make the goetic demons their own being or an aspect of the original pagan god?!

Pagan god names appear to have inspired the source material satire. Which would make them their own thing from the different characteristics.

Crowley and co's 777 attributing these to the astrological decans anchors a different deific meaning with correspondence to the Ancient Egyptian calendar that's particular to a temple aligning to Regulus. Making a connection between those to aspects of 'original' pagan gods from astronomical timing rather than the name.

 

[MorganBlack]

The pagan myths are just conceptual handles for us to try to understand what these forces are for human purposes just as much as the Catholic ones are.

Kepler is right, that we can map the daimons to the stars. This is being done currently with the daimons of the GV. I find it all a little anodyne and dry, but it too will help modulate the manifestations.

The daimons "echo" the pattern of the myth, but they are not literally "pagan gods" in a historical vacuum. They exist seemingly separate from us, but as "psychiod" entities, they are responsive to our thoughts and expectations within a certain range that can be mapped by the myths.

Since I mentioned, Beelzebuth:

This is where JSK’s Grimoire-as-Geography model kicks in. He identifies Beelzebuth with the Canaanite personification of Death and the Underworld, Mot combined with Baal Hadad, the storm god. In Canaanite myth, Mot consumes Baal Hadad, leading to a period of drought and death until Mot is defeated by Anat, the sister (and sometimes consort) of Baal Hadad.

In JSK's view, Beelzebuth is part of the "Triptych" or Underworld Trinity of the Grimorium Verum. This trinity consists of (expanding a bit from JSK):

Lucifer: The quality of Intellect, Awareness, and Communication. Astaroth: The quality of Life, Generation, and Desire, Expansion. Beelzebuth: The quality of Death, Decay, Restriction.

By using these "handles," the magician is using them to ritually engage with the Beelzebuth/Mot pattern that the daimons perceives as itself, or present themselves to us as.

Simply by the fact our animal-self has an instinct for self-preservation, on an raw, instinctual level Beelzebuth will look the way he does. You are still dealing with, in part, the personified "value system" of the grave and the darkness, the finality of the physical form before it is transmuted into the next "level" of the game were all playing together, the daimons and us.

The pagan myths can help us understand and change our relationship to that finality - as can the Catholic ones. Take your pick. They are not always equal, and some are better than others. New Age Modern paganism and internet Plastic Shamanism , in my opinion, do not deal with Death, Judgment, and Resurrection well, except for some badly incorporated ideas borrowed from Eastern religions.

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

When summoning any spirits it is important to remember the context of their summoning. The spirits in the Ars Goetia are demonic in nature because the system built around them labels them so.
This does not retroactively reduce the entities which inspired their creation from gods to demons.
If you perform a working to summon Astarte, for example, you will be summoning Astarte the goddess and not Astaroth the demon provided that you as the summoner consider the spirit of Astarte as a goddess and not as a demon. This would, however, require a different ritual to summon her than the one laid out in the Ars Goetia as those rituals are attuned to the demonic energies laid out in the system and text for it.
In other words, a lot of the characteristics of any entity summoned, if not all of them, are determined by the caster and their personal impression of the entity being summoned as the summoner's attunement directly correlates to the attunement of the summoned spirit.
Focusing your will on summoning a spirit of darkness and harm will attract a spirit attuned to those energies, focusing on a spirit of light and protection will attract one attuned to those energies and so on.
That said, when summoning an egregores of any sort their energies are attuned to the thoughts masses of practitioners who have summoned or worshipped them before.

Dr Stephen Skinner mentions this in one of his videos about how you approach the spirits of the goetia. He mentions the emphasis on wearing the white robe and crown and the sword, he said that people approach the spirits dressed like something from Halloween and are surprised when the spirit shows themselves in a “unpleasant appearance”

I remember mentioning something about the goetic spirits to an acquaintance and said, man, I don’t know how evil these guys are supposed to be when their abilities are all listed as things like “teaches language, the ufe of metals, knowledge of medicine” and the like. He was like “then they’re probably not “”demons”” then, right?” According to the Bible ALL of the gods of the goyim are demons. Because the one true god of the Bible doesn’t exhibit wicked behaviors at all, right? . But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there ARENT malevolent entities in the world.
It’s entirely possible that the goetic spirits have just accepted the names that have been used for centuries and their actual, real names are something different.

as a side note, I just watched baal kadmons video last night about how “lucifer” is a descriptor and not even a actual name in the Bible, and his position is that there’s no such entity. Of course there’s numerous practitioners who have personal experience to the contrary. I saw something awhile back that said Lucifer is actually Apollo, which would make sense considering how powerful he is attributed to be.

its a good point above that we have to remember the eras of medieval magic, think about how much abrahamic theology underpins our daily lives even if we grew up in an atheistic home. What the church, the Christian god, and Jewish literature (bible ) was not only the final authority, it was the starting point and the ending point of all understanding of the world.

going back to Dr skinner, he says that some of the goetic spirits are definitely old pagan gods and others aren’t, and some are just downright malevolent beings.

 

[MorganBlack]

Nice!

I agree with David Rankine who says we really have no idea what the spirits really are. But I'm pretty okay with any myths people want use to engage with them. My only real requirements is they not strip all nuance out of the practice.

There are deep and shallow ends in both pool. I can deal with Faustian stories - putting your very immortal soul on the line (not literally) for love, wealth, wisdom , and knowledge - far, far more than making the daimons shallow astral chatbots puffing up your ego, justified with a wordlview girded up by a pretty garbage internet culture.

Since I've been on an occult Substack kick recently, I thought these two posts from Robert Peter nicely bookends the serious issues I have with New Age plastic shamanism:

Friends In Low Spaces

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A Love Letter To The New Age Movement ( not really)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Caduceus]

Does it matter if they are or are NOT? I look at each "IT" no matter the spelling as a personal interaction. You'll bring into that interaction whatever you're holding onto or desire. Maybe that interaction will correct you or it won't. Is anything disclosed as THE TRUTH or just what you WANT. I'm of the mind in an omniversal existence that even one awareness at any one point/crux in time/space/existence is just one of an infinite number of it since time/space/existence is likely infinite. Others will say no but I disagree on their absoluteness on that. And like a ripple or something that explodes into infinite particles every fraction of time interacting is creating an infinite number of that "IT."

I just hardly believe it matters to categorize any entity. An example: I believe there are an infinite number of say Jesus to varying degrees. I think there are an infinite number of cruel vile ones as there are supposed exalted kindly nice ones. There are green ones, alien spiked ones, slime ones, devouring ones, do nothing ones. Meh!

These "beings" aren't self. Whether you invoke/evoke/transact/review/explore they're just extensions you can utilize or ignore. They might be a threat to your carnal flesh thing body life but eternally? Meh, they aren't even notworthy.

 

[MorganBlack]

Meh, they aren't even notworthy.

Well they are, but it's complicated. They daimons are not Self, but they are Soul. They can help you with parts of your soul's more horizontal and relational aspects like personal coherence, power, and the "unclean" aspects of our reality, like the judicious use of violence. Yes, these are fraught areas .

The Christians make the mistake thinking they are all bad and the modern pagan make the mistake thinking they are all good, and an adequate replacement for The One. We really do not want go back to being primitives pagans, terrified of every daimon lurking in the woods, and making endless sacrifices.

The Neoplatonism of the Western cannon helps here. They are only half us (ideally) when in relation to us. They are the middle ground between The Numinous and us.

A good primer on Neoplatonism in modern langauage , and where animism fits in, see:

Patrick Harpur - The Secret Tradition of the Soul;

Book – EPUB/MOBI - Patrick Harpur - The Secret Tradition of the Soul (2011)

Patrick Harpur's 'The Secret Tradition of the Soul' is a book I feel it should be read by all occultists, and magicians, including neopagans, and anyone who works in Mythic Space. This book ideally should be read along with Harpur's book 'Daimonic Reality,' and Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A...

wizardforums.com

and his:
Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld (2003)

Book – PDF - Patrick Harpur - Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld (2003)

Another book i think should be on every occultist's reading list. Your imagination is bigger than you think. The Imaginal is both part of you, and part of the spirit world, and the daimons are the intermediaries. There. Lon Milo DuQuette's famous saying really needed some serious updating...

wizardforums.com

The formal tradition , it's stories, praxis, and protocols, help give us something to "push up against" and to cut down om the overgrowth of internet super shaman LARP , and making more Diaboliost Witch-Slop. Just ugh. Diabolist Witch-Slop City