Are There any safe Goetia spirits?

[Lion]

Which Goetia spirit is the safest and least likely to give you a hard time ? I was wondering about Phenex; has anybody worked with Phenex?

 

[Lucien6493]

Receiving information that makes zero sense at the moment. It unfolds in time, as you grow or are ready. Note: This is how Raziel and Asteroth taught ME. This in no way intimates that either would teach others (you) in the same way. Although I do know a few others who have had similar experiences with either of those two spirits. Not a rule is what I am saying, some call it UPG or unverified personal gnosis.

I can verify that. My deepest apologies!

To the devil with verification though. The moment it can be verified it is no longer gnosis. It becomes something curated, categorized and safe. The imaginal is not safe, and Astaroth is not someone I would invite home to meet my mother. She is a trickster spirit. So is Astaroth, and I love her dearly, and if I ever confused the two, or equated them, then magick was not something I should have ever taken up.

To to address the original post, no demon is safe. Neither is your life, nor your relationships, let alone your bullshit, most of which is passed on to you by those who have a vested interest in making you safe for themselves, because engaging the demonic is like jamming the Blues, not like dear Abby. It's messy, its intense, it hurts. It's lots of smoke, cold beer and bad lighting. If it makes you feel comfortable try Tinder. That is really scary!

 

[Firetree]

Receiving information that makes zero sense at the moment. It unfolds in time, as you grow or are ready. Note: This is how Raziel and Asteroth taught ME. This in no way intimates that either would teach others (you) in the same way. Although I do know a few others who have had similar experiences with either of those two spirits. Not a rule is what I am saying, some call it UPG or unverified personal gnosis.

Same for me ( Your first two sentences ) . After many years I started referring to the process as a 'download ' - after many years, as , when it happened 'downloads' were not invented yet . I remember a beam of white light hitting me in the forehead , a 'white out' , an energy rush into my ' head' , a noise I could not identify except as chaotic, fast and seeming like a series of different soundings bips, clicks, and ' short wave radio static ' ( back then, that was the only thing I could compare it to ) . Apparent time loss , not to me though I thought the whole process took a few seconds but observers said otherwise ; I was standing there staring 'for ages ' and could not hear the people calling to me .

Decades later , I grabbed a cassette tape of the shelf and out it in the player ... to my shock that sound ( or something very similar to it ) came out the speakers .... WTF is that ! A flatmate came bolting in (as I had it up loud and it was his sound system ) and asked me what I had done to his sound system and shut it off . I told him what happened and he pulled the tape out and looked at it ; ' No wonder ! ' he said and then explained it was a 'computer tape ' with a program on it .

( no I am not making that up ;

- not anything like Raziel or Asteroth though . I had no idea at the time , it took me decades to , sort of , reverse engineer 'who' it was and what form they were taking ( and the reason for that became very apparent after a fuller examination of my natal chart ) .

I am wondering, if in your experience , you can at times 'access' parts of that download information , either by conscious contact with your 'storage facility ' , or by surfacing from the 'unconscious' spontaneously or in times of need ( especially 'dire need' ) ?

 

[FireBorn]

I am wondering, if in your experience , you can at times 'access' parts of that download information , either by conscious contact with your 'storage facility ' , or by surfacing from the 'unconscious' spontaneously or in times of need ( especially 'dire need' ) ?

Honestly, thats a cool question, and I dont really have an answer. The downloads were visual and somatic shapes and vibrations. Only a few have been revealed, or unfolded (if that is even the right term for it) but months later. Not the thread for it, but it would be cool to compare notes.

 

[Firetree]

Honestly, thats a cool question, and I dont really have an answer. The downloads were visual and somatic shapes and vibrations. Only a few have been revealed, or unfolded (if that is even the right term for it) but months later. Not the thread for it, but it would be cool to compare notes.

yeah ok, I dont know what to call a thread like that though , if you start one I will contribute . Notify me if you do .

For me any 'spirit' ( whatever we might want to classify it as ) is 'safe' depending on their works ( results ) , unfortunately judged in retrospect . However during the process we might be able to discern that .

I fully ascribe to Dr VanDusens * clinical observations in that , whether it is regarded as a 'spirit' or 'hallucination', the same 'rules' apply and one is that there are spirits of a 'good order' and a 'bad order' .... obviously the good order is 'safe' and the bad order not ( when one considers the why of the classification ) .

*

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[Lucien6493]

@Firetree and @FireBorn if you take situational awareness (reading the field for patterns) and add to it an acute awareness of the inner senses then what we call spirits may well be our ability to interact with the intelligence of the complex system within which we are embedded, in which case the word "safe" does not apply. Why? Because the field is not a danger to itself. Danger and safety only makes sense if you have convinced yourself that you are separate from the very environment you inhabit. It certainly feels that way, but this may well be a perceptual hallucination. If we look at magick not as something we do but as an interface event...as one part of a complex system talking to another another part of itself the danger of being overwhelmed does not exist because communication can only happen (from our side) if our integrity as a complex system is maintained. Inner and outer (inner senses and field awareness) are two ways of looking at the same thing. Of course, there is the madness of spirits to deal with and the stress of holding yourself together while being Present but that is, to my mind, Shadow work. It can't be avoided.

 

[Lion]

thanks that is useful, was there an invocation to go with it? did it work for you?

 

[jzatopa]

Make sure your character is enobled, that you are only doing this to bring heaven to earth and that your physical, mental, emotional and spiritual body is well developed before you start working with spirits. There are many other things to do besides work with spirits that can bring about the heaven in your life faster.

Consider maybe working with a deity like Durga or Kali and practice Homa, you'll be with a group who is there for humanities betterment and you'll know for a fact if there was an improvement in your life from the practice as there won't be deception you must crush out.

I went early into spirit work and in hindsight I would have dive more into love work, human connection work and the like as well as energy work to train my body. It wasn't bad but the results were more about confirmation of oneness with God and understanding the parts of God we call spirits and how to love them in union with God the right way, not always easy when you realize that you need to be totally centered and stay that way or get way out of center and have to work back (can make you strong but could cost you a few years of the delight of heaven on earth).

 

[Frater R.P.G.]

Speaking purely from my experience and do bare in mind these things will vary as do relationships between people: Phenex is not a good start, he's very deceptive and tries to get out of doing any work while pretending to deserve a reward. Vassago, as someone has recommended here, is also not very friendly in my experience, but he's more straightforward and although hostile, not overly aggressive. My personal recommendation would be Marbas. Very chill, have worked with him for many years and he always did what was asked without pestering, never showed any sign of deception or hostility.

 

[𝕳𝖊𝖑𝖑𝖋𝖎𝖗𝖊]

Sallos sounds like a nice guy

 

[System Error Message]

in general i wouldnt touch either of those spirits. None of the mare safe and the method people talk about is using a binding angel.

In general there are only 6 ars goetia that are a bit safe but i wont say. These guys wanted out from the rest and would rather be considered scum than go the same path as the rest of them. The negotiations they did was also pretty smart due to the timing. However going the other path would also make them difficult to contact or work with.

 

[frater_pan]

There are some reports scattered around the net that report Goetic interactions. Some seem more reliable than others.

DuQuette successfully evoked a demon (Orobas) early in his magical career in order to change the circumstances of his life. He has written about this in his books. He writes about this in "My Life With the Spirits: The Adventures of a Modern Magician." There IS also an unintended consequence as a result of the otherwise successful workings. He also writes about this in his book "Low Magick" which is available on the Internet Archive.

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[OberonFromTheHills]

In my opinion it's more about what you do with the spirit than "is the spirit safe to work with?"

I saw a bunch of people become desperate and sad by dint of working with destructive/underworld spirits like The Morrigan or Hecate.

Any spirit should be well aspected, selected and limited (the use of epithets for the pagan gods)

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

Hi Lion, you are welcome for that. I'm happy to provide some info I've gathered from my own past reading and practices. I'll also try to answer your questions as well.

1. What kinds of offering do you make. Is it something like wine or food/cake. Or meat or your own blood?

• This really depends on the spirit and on the tradition that you are using to approach them; offerings themselves are a bit of an art and science.
• If we go by the hints from the Ars Goetia, you will see that planetary metals (e.g. Sun - Gold, Iron - Mars, etc) are used to construct the specific sigils of the spirit based on their rank (King - Sun, Duke - Venus, Prince - Jupiter, etc). Many practitioners, including myself, take this as saying that the spirits each have a planetary correspondence to them. So offerings corresponding to the planets can be considered a valid approach. This is most readily seen with the use of specific planet aligned incenses such as Sandalwood for Venus, Frankincense for Sun, and Ceder for Jupiter, etc. So you could use these incenses either as a welcome or as an offering by itself to the spirit. In this case, I would simply just leave the spirits sigil at the altar at the end of the ritual and invite it to stay to enjoy the scent of the incense before actually departing. You may use other offers that are aligned with the spirit's planet.
• Another approach is food items like you mentioned. You can always use an alcohol, such as wine or a strong spirit and I think these can work quite well. You should always research in advance what kind of food / beverage the spirit likes in advance based on online accounts by other people who have done the work; you will see some good possibilities through these accounts. The same consideration applies for food. The approach would be to leave the food on an altar that is at least temporarily dedicated to the spirit, with its sigil present. This is ideally prepared in advance as part of the ritual and you invite the spirit to stay and enjoy the food before departing, like with incense. After, you throw away the food or toss into the ground to decompose.
• Finally, regarding blood and bodily fluids, you will find a lot of people who are split on this. This is a controversial subject, but my take is that you can use offerings like your blood, but with an important set of caveats. First, you must understand that blood and semen especially are powerful offerings since they are strong sources of bodily and spiritual vitality with your DNA connected to them. If you offer blood to a spirit, understand you are giving an offering that has the potential to bind you to that spirit in a very strong way. As a ritual battery, blood is extremely powerful and can be an excellent way to power the manifestation of results or to motivate the spirit to do its work, but that bond to you means that the spirit's energy has a potential to stay with you. The naysayers of blood offerings say that this will allow the spirit to more easily wreck havoc in your life, turn it upside down etc, but I have not personally experienced this. To help prevent this, I usually use an agreement or pact that has a clause stating that no spiritual, psychological, emotional, or physical harm shall come to me. This has been sufficient for me and you will see many people using blood in traditions such as demonolatry to no ill effect. So my take is that you can use blood / semen / bodily fluids, but do so as an offering for exceptionally important results and making sure to understand the caveats. Also make sure to always do the ritual with respect and good safety measures (e.g. the binding angel) when using blood offerings as this will ensure a safe, secure approach.
• On the whole, you can find an excellent guide by reading "Ritual Offerings" by Aaron Leitch. He does not agree with my take on using blood/ bodily fluids, but he does give great considerations on how to make offerings to spirits and why it is a good idea to include offerings.

2. Do you think Phenex is also 'Safe'ish?

• Remember what I said about the spirit's identity. Phenex is connected with written + spoken communication and also music as its primary abilities. It is not adept with baneful purposes such as death, destruction, cursing, and hexing. So the logic I gave above, yes it should be safe. Spirits such as Shax, Andras, Raum, Glasya Labolas, and Forcalor could potentially be considered more "dangerous". But even then, you have to consider safety as an aggregate of the points I noted above.
• If you treat even a spirit like Phenex with disrespect, then you will likely reap some consequences such as bad luck in your communication or unintended ritual results that are negative for you. I am not saying this will happen, but just as an educated guess. Respect means thoughtful communication, a non-commanding / non-coercive ritual structure, and a good offering given for the service. Do the ritual safely, give the petition as a request, and state what you will give it in return for payment. If it fulfils your request, give the offering and if it does not, then don't and explain why not to the spirit in a subsequent communication.
• Once again, even with spirits like Andras, using a safe secure ritual method will ensure a powerful level of safety is already built into the ritual structure. So if you use a binding angel, invocation to powerful spirits (e.g. archangels) to oversee the ritual progress / results, and you approach with a good attitude, then any of the 72 spirits are safe to work with, including Phenix.
• One final word on safety is also on the results you ask for. If you ask for results that have the potential to backfire in some horrible way on you (e.g. asking for money and getting an inheritance from a "sudden" death of a loved one), then that is also an issue for safety. Remember to word your petition carefully enough to ensure nothing like this happens, but also open ended enough to allow for multiple paths to manifestation. Usually what is sufficient is to give a request (e.g. "I want more dates through the dating app tinder") and also to bind the spirit to a clause that ensures that no harm of any type shall come to you (or your loved ones if necessary). This can help a lot with that. But always remember you are also responsible for the safety of the ritual as pertains to your results; you are seeking to manipulate reality in order to get what you want and this comes with a responsibility.
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3. And out of curiosity do you think the same spirit can be summoned at the same time by 2 different practitioners in different places (just wondering if we should conceptualise them as a 'field' of energy, or in an anthropomorphic way as being like 'a person' who is in 'one place at a time'.

• The answer to this is probably "yes", but you really are getting into deeply theoretical territory here. This is actually a very common question with many related offshoots. But again in its most basic form, yes I believe 2 practitioners can summon the spirit at the same time in different locations. You need to remember that spirits are not only blobs of energy, but they are blobs of energy that exist in a different realm to us. Whether angelic, demonic, Jinn, Fae, or whatever else, they are not bound by the same physical world as we are and therefore exist in a different "time and space" as those bound to the physical mundane plane. If you take this line of thinking, then you can say a spirit can appear in 2 different places on our plane because it is not bound to the physical laws of space on our plane. Beyond this, I won't speculate because giving you an objective answer with more precision would not give you an objective picture of how it happens. The reason for this is because I simply do not feel like I know more than this and anyone else's attempt at being specific will end up being subjective conjecture or experience.
• I still say it is best to see them as a field of energy as opposed to something anthropomorphic. Each practitioner will receive the spirit in a different unique form (if at all). But one objective thing among practitioner that always occurs is that they "feel" when the spirit arrives in similar ways such as chills, a different energy coming into the room, or the atmosphere of the room changing in some way. To me, this is more like a field of "something" than a specific anthropomorphic being.

I have always conceptualized multiple people summoning the same spirit at the same time as though that spirit was having a zoom call with one or more individuals. I can sit with friends and talk with several of them at the same time, why couldn’t a spirit who is thousands if not millions of years old do the same thing?

it would be interesting to see someone coordinate an experiment like Dr. Skinner describes, say a person in the USA, one in China, another in central Africa, one in Europe and one in Russia, all perform the summoning of the same spirit at the exact same time, and record their results independently.
On second thought, Dr. Skinner says timing is one of the most important factors. Interesting to consider.

 

[System Error Message]

I have always conceptualized multiple people summoning the same spirit at the same time as though that spirit was having a zoom call with one or more individuals. I can sit with friends and talk with several of them at the same time, why couldn’t a spirit who is thousands if not millions of years old do the same thing?

it would be interesting to see someone coordinate an experiment like Dr. Skinner describes, say a person in the USA, one in China, another in central Africa, one in Europe and one in Russia, all perform the summoning of the same spirit at the exact same time, and record their results independently.
On second thought, Dr. Skinner says timing is one of the most important factors. Interesting to consider.

1) time between worlds differ and are not linear. the rate/flow of time as well.
2) with angels, angels are capable of being inside and outside time, meaning they have all the time they want to handle each individual person, so their limit is individual capacity at any given time per contact.

With beings that dont have the capabilities of angels, like the ars goetia, the world they inhabit has a different time to ours. Their flow of time is much faster and not linear to ours meaning that every contact can end up in a different point in their time and ours,