[Help] Are there people like Crowley or Lon Duquette, who didn't take an oath of secrecy?

[dababy10]

What I mean by the above is, people who deeply studied occult knowledge, know initiate secrets, etc etc... And wrote about it? I love lon duquette's work but the only thing that annoys me is that he took a secrecy oath so I know I'm not getting everything from reading him. Are there any weird exceptions where people never took an oath yet still got taught, and released what they knew?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I never took any oath, and I published the results of thirty years of work

Not sure I'd put myself in the same league as those guys though

 

[dababy10]

I never took any oath, and I published the results of thirty years of work

Not sure I'd put myself in the same league as those guys though

Where can I find your work?

 

[beardedeldridge]

What I mean by the above is, people who deeply studied occult knowledge, know initiate secrets, etc etc... And wrote about it? I love lon duquette's work but the only thing that annoys me is that he took a secrecy oath so I know I'm not getting everything from reading him. Are there any weird exceptions where people never took an oath yet still got taught, and released what they knew?

This is not what you’re asking but gatekeeping isn’t really that big of a deal. I mean sure they try but with the internet these days and how magic works... For the most part, the value of working thru a system is actually working thru the system, not in the super secret handshake (rituals) at the end.

-Eld

 

[dababy10]

This is not what you’re asking but gatekeeping isn’t really that big of a deal. I mean sure they try but with the internet these days and how magic works... For the most part, the value of working thru a system is actually working thru the system, not in the super secret handshake (rituals) at the end.

-Eld

Ah, Yeah I'm not that interested in rituals specific to orders, moreso the actual knowledge the order was founded on if you know what I mean.

So a system alone is mosy of what you need?

 

[beardedeldridge]

Ah, Yeah I'm not that interested in rituals specific to orders, moreso the actual knowledge the order was founded on if you know what I mean.

So a system alone is mosy of what you need?

What you need is to work magic not so much a formal system.



While a formal system can be helpful in the fact that it gives you a sort of road map to follow and in a formal setting it by design causes you to work thru it slowly, which can be helpful when you’re essentially feeling your way thru the dark (which isn’t an inaccurate way of looking at what we do).



But it can also be a hinderance, since no system/group has it perfect (or even mostly right imo), you are essentially recreating the combined steps of the ones who created the “map”, both helpful and erroneous ones, and coming to a similar destination. Not wrong or right I guess, just depends on what you’re looking for. But at least it provides you with a map to work off of.



Now let’s say you found one of these groups’ “holy grail”, in my experience, you would find as much noise as signal, if not more. While a group can hold each other accountable, push each other farther down this path, and use their combined experiences to great effect, they are also combing their egos/biases/dogma/errors.



Now if you could get a lot of these groups “secrets” you could probably look for common threads and that could prove interesting. But in the end, this stuff can’t be spoon fed to you either, it’s not the pursuit of truth as much as it’s the truth in the pursuit. It’s the searching that’s the real hidden treasure.



-Eld

 

[dababy10]

What you need is to work magic not so much a formal system.



While a formal system can be helpful in the fact that it gives you a sort of road map to follow and in a formal setting it by design causes you to work thru it slowly, which can be helpful when you’re essentially feeling your way thru the dark (which isn’t an inaccurate way of looking at what we do).



But it can also be a hinderance, since no system/group has it perfect (or even mostly right imo), you are essentially recreating the combined steps of the ones who created the “map”, both helpful and erroneous ones, and coming to a similar destination. Not wrong or right I guess, just depends on what you’re looking for. But at least it provides you with a map to work off of.



Now let’s say you found one of these groups’ “holy grail”, in my experience, you would find as much noise as signal, if not more. While a group can hold each other accountable, push each other farther down this path, and use their combined experiences to great effect, they are also combing their egos/biases/dogma/errors.



Now if you could get a lot of these groups “secrets” you could probably look for common threads and that could prove interesting. But in the end, this stuff can’t be spoon fed to you either, it’s not the pursuit of truth as much as it’s the truth in the pursuit. It’s the searching that’s the real hidden treasure.



-Eld

Hmmm so what would some good next steps be then? Because the most I've done in terms of "magick" (practice wise) is just new thought, mainly from Charles F Haanel. Have always been skeptical of straight up magick, probably due to Christian-ish upbringing and the stigma with it.

Not to be spoon fed of course, maybe just some texts or books that would be a really good base that would allow further exploration or enough understanding to know where to go next?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Hmmm so what would some good next steps be then? Because the most I've done in terms of "magick" (practice wise) is just new thought, mainly from Charles F Haanel. Have always been skeptical of straight up magick, probably due to Christian-ish upbringing and the stigma with it.

Not to be spoon fed of course, maybe just some texts or books that would be a really good base that would allow further exploration or enough understanding to know where to go next?

I always recommend Alan Chapman's "Advanced Magick for Beginners"

Book – PDF - Advanced Magick for Beginners - Alan Chapman

A new paradigm that delivers a genuine transformation of the magical arts. The novice magician will indeed find themselves fully equipped to commence all sorts of magickal operations: trance work, enchantment, divination, and even some of the higher forms of spiritual development...

wizardforums.com

 

[HoldAll]

Hmmm so what would some good next steps be then? Because the most I've done in terms of "magick" (practice wise) is just new thought, mainly from Charles F Haanel. Have always been skeptical of straight up magick, probably due to Christian-ish upbringing and the stigma with it.

Not to be spoon fed of course, maybe just some texts or books that would be a really good base that would allow further exploration or enough understanding to know where to go next?

Books that get frequently recommended for beginners:

Aidan Wachter - Six Ways
Damien Echols - High Magick
Peter J. Carroll - Liber Null & Psychonaut
Jason Miller - Real Sorcery

Jason Miller stresses the importance of meditation so I'd recommend the book I'm using personally:

Culadasa - The Mind Illuminated (plus Practice Guide)

Authors who haven't taken an oath of secrecy because they're members of magical orders are rather the rule, not the exception. There is hardly any 'secret knowledge' anymore, every scrap of ancient lore has already been published and analyzed by scores of authors ranging from scholars to NewAge airheads; the only secrets orders possess nowadays concern either their internal workings (such as power struggles, imaginative accounting, hushed-up scandals, etc.) or only make sense within the specific context of given order, for example rituals involving its patron deity. Frequently order or coven initiations take the form of more or less extreme ordeals, and many would say that it's the experience of the initiation is what counts, not ultra-secret passwords or funny handshakes.

 

[beardedeldridge]

Like Holdall said, while I have hope someone will discover some long lost mind blowing text, most of what we are getting these days are clarifications/tweaks/connections of and between texts we are already aware of.

(eg: Skinner’s Ars Notoria making that system workable or that dude who showed how most likely everyone who was trying to make the near impossible all wax Almadel altar were the victims of a miss translation from a older text and most of the altar wasn’t intended to be made of wax. )

Now as far as what you should read, really depends on what you’re comfortable with given your upbringing. I was raised Christian, still consider myself one, I pray daily, and the Bible is one of my primary working books, etc…

• If you were Catholic or Charismatic, that gives you a lot more wiggle room in certain areas than some other groups.
• Chaos Magic (Carroll linked above) can be shoe horned into almost anything (I have and still use it in a number of ways).
• Most of the trad grims are very heavily Christian, just because of the era they came out of (Planetary Angels is a pretty easy fit for example).
• I’m a huge proponent of meditation and altered states (Wachter, as linked above, for instance gives you some interesting tools to work in this area) but that’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

-Eld

 

[Faria]

Ah, Yeah I'm not that interested in rituals specific to orders, moreso the actual knowledge the order was founded on if you know what I mean.

What you expect you could find does not exist and never did. The fact that you even think it might exist is owed to hype and superstition, with no basis in reality.

The hard fact is that secrecy in occult groups is mostly BS, but in those few instances where it gets taken seriously, it covers up drugs and sex and not anything esoteric.

 

[beardedeldridge]

What you expect you could find does not exist and never did. The fact that you even think it might exist is owed to hype and superstition, with no basis in reality.

The hard fact is that secrecy in occult groups is mostly BS, but in those few instances where it gets taken seriously, it covers up drugs and sex and not anything esoteric.

Unfortunately this is often not not true.

Secret occult society or Diddy party.

Just flip a coin it could go either way often enough.

 

[Rowena]

There's no 'secrets' of magic worth knowing that you can't discover for yourself.
While having people to work with & bounce ideas back-and-forth can make it easier to learn, time spent studying & practicing will do you more good than just taking few dread oaths & joining a magical order - neither of which are guaranteed routes to wisdom, knowledge, or ability.

The hard fact is that secrecy in occult groups is mostly BS, but in those few instances where it gets taken seriously, it covers up drugs and sex and not anything esoteric.

Ha, Ha. No.
In my experience, the most common application of 'oaths of secrecy' are to refrain from outing other group members (and sometimes other members of the occult community in general), and to not reveal initiation rituals - so they can be a surprise to new members.

 

[dababy10]

Like Holdall said, while I have hope someone will discover some long lost mind blowing text, most of what we are getting these days are clarifications/tweaks/connections of and between texts we are already aware of.

(eg: Skinner’s Ars Notoria making that system workable or that dude who showed how most likely everyone who was trying to make the near impossible all wax Almadel altar were the victims of a miss translation from a older text and most of the altar wasn’t intended to be made of wax. )

Now as far as what you should read, really depends on what you’re comfortable with given your upbringing. I was raised Christian, still consider myself one, I pray daily, and the Bible is one of my primary working books, etc…

• If you were Catholic or Charismatic, that gives you a lot more wiggle room in certain areas than some other groups.
• Chaos Magic (Carroll linked above) can be shoe horned into almost anything (I have and still use it in a number of ways).
• Most of the trad grims are very heavily Christian, just because of the era they came out of (Planetary Angels is a pretty easy fit for example).
• I’m a huge proponent of meditation and altered states (Wachter, as linked above, for instance gives you some interesting tools to work in this area) but that’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

-Eld

Oh right, thanks for the perspective, I actually thought most of this stuff would be anti christian - hence why I was very skeptical.

 

[Snoopy]

Oh right, thanks for the perspective, I actually thought most of this stuff would be anti christian - hence why I was very skeptical.

Christianity is a belief system you should study other belief systems to open your perspective on why it can be more than just belief but you can go through alot of books to find that out without a group order or some high ranking individual to back for it. But you must do the work ask yourself the hard questions and look within. Humans make the illusion of separation nothing else Christianity is nothing more than that.

 

[dababy10]

Books that get frequently recommended for beginners:

Aidan Wachter - Six Ways
Damien Echols - High Magick
Peter J. Carroll - Liber Null & Psychonaut
Jason Miller - Real Sorcery

Jason Miller stresses the importance of meditation so I'd recommend the book I'm using personally:

Culadasa - The Mind Illuminated (plus Practice Guide)

Authors who haven't taken an oath of secrecy because they're members of magical orders are rather the rule, not the exception. There is hardly any 'secret knowledge' anymore, every scrap of ancient lore has already been published and analyzed by scores of authors ranging from scholars to NewAge airheads; the only secrets orders possess nowadays concern either their internal workings (such as power struggles, imaginative accounting, hushed-up scandals, etc.) or only make sense within the specific context of given order, for example rituals involving its patron deity. Frequently order or coven initiations take the form of more or less extreme ordeals, and many would say that it's the experience of the initiation is what counts, not ultra-secret passwords or funny handshakes.

Going through Watcher and Miller atm, also as a follow up just wondering if it's worth going through courses like Sorcery of Hekate (or anything like that), since it can all be found for free. Or to stick with these books for now.

 

[Xardas]

What I mean by the above is, people who deeply studied occult knowledge, know initiate secrets, etc etc... And wrote about it? I love lon duquette's work but the only thing that annoys me is that he took a secrecy oath so I know I'm not getting everything from reading him. Are there any weird exceptions where people never took an oath yet still got taught, and released what they knew?

Personally, I am sure that what you are looking for will be very difficult to find in public books or on the Internet, only if you subscribe to some online course where they teach magic by category, but know that these courses are not exactly cheap.I learned the magic of LHP through an online course and not through books, and this is because any book I read had neither head nor tail and more or less only grimoires and not what a beginner wants (basics).This is because no one wants to reveal the secret of power
Of course, I am talking about LHP and not RHP, which is much more easily accessible content.

 

[dababy10]

Personally, I am sure that what you are looking for will be very difficult to find in public books or on the Internet, only if you subscribe to some online course where they teach magic by category, but know that these courses are not exactly cheap.I learned the magic of LHP through an online course and not through books, and this is because any book I read had neither head nor tail and more or less only grimoires and not what a beginner wants (basics).This is because no one wants to reveal the secret of power
Of course, I am talking about LHP and not RHP, which is much more easily accessible content.

I was looking at Sorcery of Hekate course, thoughts? Or do you have suggestions? Cost isnt an issue if its good.

 

[Xardas]

I was looking at Sorcery of Hekate course, thoughts? Or do you have suggestions? Cost isnt an issue if its good.

If I'm representing you correctly, we're talking about knot magic and the Queen of Witches. I'll see what I can find

 

[dababy10]

If I'm representing you correctly, we're talking about knot magic and the Queen of Witches. I'll see what I can find

Well, I'm new to this, so it doesn't have to be specifically that, just looking to advance in magic