[Opinion] At Some Point Every Occult Practitioner Will Have To Choose Between "The Human World" & "The Occult World", Else Fail/Have Medicore Results In Both

[Jastiv]

I figured it out by chance, it's Left Hand Path people. I was browsing 4chan and stumbled upon a convo and realize there's this conflict between LOA (Law Of Attraction) people and LHP (Left Hand Path) people.

Law of Attraction and LHP are working on different levels of reality. They aren't really in conflict. Now, practitioners might be in conflict with their arguments, but the reality is that if you have things working the way you want at a law of attraction level, you probably don't need LHP techniques, if however things ARE NOT working at the LOA level, then you can bypass that and work with that layer.

As far as the occult vs the mundane. What we are really talking about here is basically two different social spheres, or rather groups of people who do not get on and are trying to force the practitioner to choose one or the other. At that point it may be better to work with entities that are skilled in communication and somehow merge these groups. Catholicism for instance isn't universally thought of as "good" (especially these days with all the scandals coming out.) The problem is somehow people don't realize how the Christian sacraments themselves are actually occult, and use occult techniques to enslave people.

 

[Scottish_Pride]

I don't see myself ever getting into a relationship with somebody who was that religious. So far, most my previous relationships have actually been with people who at least dabbled in the occult, even though it's not like I'm specifically looking for that. Usually it just happens to be a shared interest.

I doubt I'd ever want kids even for mundane reasons, though. Like...even if somehow I decide to have a committed relationship again. A bunch of crotch goblins running around would be the last thing I want, too much damn work. And money, and time, and giving up lots of things you used to enjoy. The parents out there are welcome to it, but just not the life for me. XD

In general, though, people are going to have to interact with the mundane world at some point and on some level. Few of us can just go hole up in some scenic mountain tower somewhere, and be a full-blown hermit who hasn't seen another human in decades. Until the day you hit it big with the money magic or whatever, jobs are necessary. Unless you're able to make an actual living in the occult community right from the start, said jobs tend to be interacting with tons of normies. You'll need to go to the store for food of some kind, or get takeout. But even if you didn't have to do all that, and you could be 100% detached from the entire mundane world...why would you? That's an awful boring way to live, with absolutely no friends or family. Also something that's got serious psychological drawbacks, for even the most solitude-loving kind of person. There's a reason solitary confinement is considered such a serious form of punishment.

 

[Pestifer Mundi]

There's a reason solitary confinement is considered such a serious form of punishment.

I don't think it's a coincidence that solitary confinement also includes not having access to any comforts or entertainment, that's the factor they've never tested for.

Put a TV in that room, an endless supply of good tasting food, and access to porn.

All of a sudden all of that "solitude is the worst thing" rhetoric will go out the window lol.

I just find that whole thing disingenuous tbh, because it's always solitary confinement under the worst conditions.

They should try solitary confinement under the best conditions and see how much people care.

 

[Irish Bard]

The "what would you save in a fire" comment may be going a wee bit far BUT I do buy into the underlying logic.

I certainly find balancing my goals and desires as a writer and artist (art and magick are for me inextricably linked) in conflict with my responsibilities in the mundane world.

Hell I find it difficult to find a space for a good twenty minute pathworking/trance session (without other issues playing on my mind) let alone hours of ceremonial magick.

I think there's something here but I can't help but thinking that extreme "shocking" things were said to get attention or excessively labour the point, its quite a shame as this is a topic worth discussing.

 

[Irish Bard]

I don't see myself ever getting into a relationship with somebody who was that religious. So far, most my previous relationships have actually been with people who at least dabbled in the occult, even though it's not like I'm specifically looking for that. Usually it just happens to be a shared interest.

I doubt I'd ever want kids even for mundane reasons, though. Like...even if somehow I decide to have a committed relationship again. A bunch of crotch goblins running around would be the last thing I want, too much damn work. And money, and time, and giving up lots of things you used to enjoy. The parents out there are welcome to it, but just not the life for me. XD

In general, though, people are going to have to interact with the mundane world at some point and on some level. Few of us can just go hole up in some scenic mountain tower somewhere, and be a full-blown hermit who hasn't seen another human in decades. Until the day you hit it big with the money magic or whatever, jobs are necessary. Unless you're able to make an actual living in the occult community right from the start, said jobs tend to be interacting with tons of normies. You'll need to go to the store for food of some kind, or get takeout. But even if you didn't have to do all that, and you could be 100% detached from the entire mundane world...why would you? That's an awful boring way to live, with absolutely no friends or family. Also something that's got serious psychological drawbacks, for even the most solitude-loving kind of person. There's a reason solitary confinement is considered such a serious form of punishment.

I like this post - gets to the core of the topic and cuts through the weeds and provocation above.

 

[Pestifer Mundi]

The "what would you save in a fire" comment may be going a wee bit far

Not in my book.

Ultimately I want to practice alchemy, and I've always been obsessed with creating the philosophers stone and the entire "mythos" behind it, I'm actually quite serious about it.

So in that hypothetical, lets say I have a wife and children, and I wake up and the house is on fire, and in my writings I have something essential to completing the Magnum Opus that cannot be replicated or rediscovered, if I lose it I've lost it for good.

I know for a fact I would choose my Magnum Opus, and that's exactly why on this path I would never bother having children, because I don't ever want to be in such a position where I'm forced to choose.

When you are seriously dealing with things of "The Occult World" it's very likely that the people around you will be in danger, and I would not like to be in a position where I have to choose my life's work or the life of a family member.

That's exactly why I said at the start of the thread:

This thread doesn't really apply to "armchair magicians" that much, so I guess they don't have to take it into consideration (now, onto the thread).

"Armchair Magicians" (theory and reading only, no actual application/practice) won't be affected by the "house fire" ultimatum because:
1. They don't take any occult practice seriously enough that this would even be a hard choice. It's not even an option, they'd choose their children without hesitation, because "The Occult World" is just an interesting hobby to them.

2. They will never delve into the depths of the occult that are dangerous enough to endanger their family, so they'd never have to worry about choosing it over their family. So there's no "weight" to the choices, it's an easy choice to them.

As inflammatory as that first statement may have seemed, it served a purpose (just like the ultimatum).

I think there's something here but I can't help but thinking that extreme "shocking" things were said to get attention or excessively labour the point

The entire point of an "extreme case" is to get a person to honestly gauge "their true self".

Without mentally placing yourself in extreme cases you'll rationalize things conveniently and not take it seriously.

That's exactly why I used the ultimatum with the house fire, it's an either or case. What you choose will determine the "world" you focus the rest of your life on, because the one you let die can't be recovered, you'd have lost it forever.

It makes things very straightforward and leaves you no room to make excuses and hide from your "true self".

For some people this thread may end up being a "wake up call".

I like this post - gets to the core of the topic and cuts through the weeds and provocation above.

It was supposed to provoke.

To get people to contemplate how seriously they take the occult and how far they would go.

If I made people question themselves and feel strong emotions towards the topic, the thread was successful.

 

[8Lou1]

So emotional witchcraft: done. And quite safe i have to say.
In my book the next step is feelings. How is that in your book? And do you have favorite ones? I like rage in combination with love and care for example. But i lack lust...

 

[Jackson]

Current 218 makes my family litterally sick. And i really loved those spirits involved. So that was harsh. But you learn to let go and understand.

We're you able to determine why it makes them sick? Out of curiosity.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

This thread doesn't really apply to "armchair magicians" that much, so I guess they don't have to take it into consideration (now, onto the thread).



This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think both of those "worlds" or "ways of life" are in direct conflict with each other, and at some point you are going to have to choose what you prioritize more. If you try to "have it all" you may just end up half assing both of them or failing at both, leaving you forever disappointed in the your life's outcomes.

I think a great example of this is the story I stumbled upon about an occultist that goes by the name "Somnus Dreadwood" (his real name is Eric).

Long story short, "real life" as people often put it ("The Human World") caught up to him.



He had an ex-wife (Catholic) and children, and he had a messy custody battle going on. To make things worse he found out that some guy his ex-wife is dating was abusing his son.

I found it weird that he didn't just kill the abuser and the ex-wife with magic, all those years of practice and occult knowledge, and you won't use it to save your child?. That's what I would have done, it's a quick and neat end to the custody battle lol, but that's not the topic for this thread so I won't even go into that any further .

The stress from all of this going on started to affect all of his "workings" in "The Occult World", and even resulted in him being excommunicated from his group before his final initiation by "the elders" of this group.

It's not over yet, he didn't even win the custody battle at the end of all of this. He wanted sole custody, which I think he should have gotten if his wife was that irresponsible.

Two videos on the issue here:

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So from my perspective:
He lost everything because he refused to choose what "world" he truly wanted to live in, or at least what "world" he wanted to prioritize more.

He was trying to "play both sides", "have his cake and eat it too", etc

On both ends things were starting to get stressful and hectic, but he didn't want to acknowledge that he'd have to choose one in order to atleast be successful in one of them. So he ended up failing at both as he scrambled to hold everything together.



I think it is nothing but delusion to think that you can "have it all" when it comes to those two "worlds", and there won't be any consequences or conflicts that result in unchangeable negative outcomes (loss, death, trauma, failure, unsatisfactory and mediocre results, etc).

Are there exceptions to the rule, yes I'm sure, but in most cases both "worlds" are going to be in conflict with eachother and at some point one is going to start "winning over" the other one, and while you panic and try to hold together the balancing act, you'll likely just end up dropping what's in both hands and breaking everything.

Some legitimate practitioners probably end up becoming "armchair magicians" in their attempt to cling to both "worlds".

Even before I heard of this story I always thought about this very thing, I've been thinking about it for years.

I'm very serious about the occult and the things I want to do seem impossible and far out of reach, and they will likely take decades if they are even possible.

I can't reasonably ever accomplish them if I have to worry about the safety of family, friends, children, etc.



I've never really been the "family" type of guy anyways, I've always been a loner. So I guess the loner path of a "purist occult practitioner" (or whatever words you'd use to describe it) are kind of convenient to me, it won't feel like a sacrifice like it will feel to many others.

At the same time, even if I woke up one day and wanted to go down the route of "living in both worlds", I wouldn't bother, because I realized long ago that if I did, I'd be putting them at risk, or I'd be putting my work/life path at risk.

There's no telling if something could go wrong and your child or wife ends up dead because you made a mistake or because you caught the eye of someone/something with malicious intent.

Practicing the occult on your own is one thing, practicing it with family and people you care about involved in your life is another thing entirely.

I already know someone is going to say "well if you know what you're doing X won't happen".

I think that's naive, the very nature of the occult is that you are dealing with forces that are mostly outside of your control, you might be the unlucky one to trigger something without even intending to.



There's also a lot of other factors to consider like:
1. Do you choose a partner that's also a practitioner so you don't have to hide your occult beliefs?

2. Do you even bother having children knowing how much time it will take away from your life's work, or are your occult practices not even something you would consider your "life's work" and you treat them as "just a hobby"? (how seriously do you take "The Occult World" VS "The Human World")

2. Do you raise your children (if you have any) into the occult, and if so do you teach them to hide that knowledge when at school so they don't get bullied or excluded by their peers?

3. Do you and your partner prioritize "The Human World" or "The Occult World" and by how much?

4. In a life and death situation what comes first, your "workings" or your "family"?

What if you are forced into a situation where you have to sacrifice your life's work in occult knowledge for your family or a friend.

Let's say you wake up in the middle of the night and your house is already set ablaze, there's no time to save both your computer/manuscript writings and your children asleep in their rooms. Who or what do you run to?

5. Etc, there are endless problems that could come up in this stressful balancing act of a life.



A lot of you might call the path I've chosen a "sad" or "lonely" life, but like I said, it isn't much of a sacrifice to someone like me, I've always been a loner. I've never really wanted kids all that much to begin with, it was more of a "fun thought" than a "desire", but for me magic and "The Occult World" has always been a desire, so there's no competition.

It just doesn't seem safe to "try and play both sides".

I may end up being forced into a situation where I'd have to choose, and sadly, I know I'd choose "The Occult World" even if I hesitated for a bit. So I won't even put myself or my "non-existent potential family" in that situation.

All I really want is a simple life where I have the health, free time and resources to pursue my research and practice of the occult.

This is exactly why I'd like to get into trading, it would be the perfect profession really.

My primary focus right now is to build up my finances and base occult knowledge so I can really dig in once I hit my mid 30's. Luckily I'm still in my 20's so I have some time.

I think you fail to realize that spirits want like everyone. Some are due to their astrological position which may conflict with your natal and or horary chart.
Also, some spirits are absolute psychopathic assholes, and likely may not jive with every practitioner.
I can attest it is far easier to evoke a demon as opposed to an elemental or angel.
Then there is the route of low Magick. Which may have a 50-50 shot of success - same with some witchcraft practitioners.
And there is also the aspect of cursing someone by using a goetic demon to help a situation.
We have doctor's in this world for a reason. Same with every other profession under the sun.
If you want to use magic, then you do you.
Also consider many practitioners are prohibited by working with spirits until they are recognized as an adept. If in a lodge structure with elemental grades.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Armchair Magician is akin to Usenet calling someone a troll or pedo, not because the other person was one or the other, but as a lame insult hurled at someone they don't know bit dislike.

Armchair magicians are wise in my opinion:
1. They have goals for themselves and cautiously pursue them.
2. They don't feed into the hype that you must pursue the goetia or Qlippoth, in order to be a real magician.
3. They don't follow cult figures/magicians of esteem, as every magician like an empire has its rise and fall.

 

[Jarhyn]

I realized early on that there had to be compatibility built into one's life between spiritual and material concerns.

My own answer to that, for what it is worth, is what I consider my own 'great work': completely describing spirituality in entirely material terms, and not just in material terms most often but mathematical ones.

Nobody in my life, or indeed anywhere, could walk up to me and say "magic is not real, you are crazy and that's all there is about it", because I can actually prove them wrong (depending on the definition of 'magic' used; I may depending on their definitions point out that what they describe as magic thusly is not believed in by wizards or occultists, either), with either and both of evidence and modal logic on shared premises.

I surely have done some rituals that may have bordered on "outsider contact" but my defense there is "I put no weight on it; it is art, and if I play a silly game and do a little dance with my art, this is not craziness but an artistic process that deserves as much respect as any other thing! It is merely art and stories and appreciation of strange coincidence in that corner. The Intent created therein and the resultant Actions upon that intent if viewed from a materialist perspective, is nonetheless sufficient to explain the outcome from an internalized perspective: I found what I did 'manifested' because the ritual got me caring enough to strongly look so as to see."

In fact not treating "outsider magic" like a vending machine (which would be "putting your weight on it") is probably the right of it anyway.

As such, I am in fact much more active as a materialist "strong agnostic" on another forum where I am also nonetheless out as a "wizard" and the only people who tend to object to this fact tend instead to rather frequently and deeply embarrass themselves whenever they do.

I don't think it's so much a conflict between these two worlds so much as a false conflict ginned up by those who really just have a vested interest in not wanting there to be anything "spiritual". In fact usually, the biggest objections to such "materialist magic" come from those who would like to use the apparent absence of a creator god as an excuse to proclaim the actual absence of a creator god for the sake of absolution.

Never mind that not even a creator god or lack thereof absolves people from the foolish shortsightedness of solipsistic actions nor of social responsibility, nor of the abilities of others to calculate which wills, in a moment, are free.

In my estimation, it is those who deny the spiritual, even when the spiritual is posed in entirely material terms, that are deranged.

 

[Konsciencia]

I agree with Mider2009,