Charlie

[Beyond Everything]

1. I by correcting the fact he was not a far right nationalist and was a conservative speaker.

One of Charlie Kirk's podcast episodes is literally titled "The Great Replacement is Real.' That's at least white nationalism adjacent.

And he was a christian nationalist too.

. Critical analysis of the Freedom Square Nights series launched in May 2021 at Dream City Church in Phoenix, Arizona, illustrates Kirk’s particularism. Kirk promoted “spiritual warfare” against the “dehumanizing” and “Satanic” tactics of the “woke left,” public educators, and marginalized identities that he believes threaten American society. He urged attendees to “demand the welfare” of their cities and “reclaim the country for Christ” by proscription and “political extinction(s).”

Why would an occultist defend someone who wants you GONE.

 

[Yazata]

Even though this was a reply, it is an attempt to go off topic. I made this into a new thread

 

[HoldAll]

"The Great Replacement", uh-oh… seen from a purely Continental European perspective, that IS a right-wing extremist buzzword, and I'm speaking of extreme right movements which proudly describe themselves as such and make no effort to hide behind a conservative facade. The most prominent of these groups is the

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which is closely watched by both the police and domestic intelligences services and whose lambda symbol is prohibited in several countries; there have been judicial proceedings not only against some leaders but against the members of whole chapters for hate speech, forming a criminal conspiracy, etc. The Movement's only saving grace is that appears to have steered clear from open neonazism so far (probably because it would get them banned straight away).

US Americans should also be aware that there are mature democracies where US Democrats would be seen as a moderately conservative and where calling them 'leftist' would be seen as ridiculous even by right extremists, where abortion, gun laws and religion are non-issues, and where hate speech is seen as a threat to national security actively persecuted by the state.

Again seen from a Continental European perspective, the OP's claim in the "Why is wikipedia often wrong about occult subjects" that the Romani were discriminated against by the political left is ludicrous - Hitler killed half a million of them, and after the war it was the conservatives who kept marginalizing them as was the tradition for centuries while the (moderate) left had to fight hard for their recognition as an ethnic minority which in some countries only happenend in the 1990ies.

As emotions tend to run high in Controversy threads, I would like to ask disputers to take the international perspective into consideration too since the original thread was about leftist political bias on an international (and not on an exclusively US domestic political) level as well.

 

[Morell]

"The Great Replacement", uh-oh… seen from a purely Continental European perspective, that IS a right-wing extremist buzzword, and I'm speaking of extreme right movements which proudly describe themselves as such and make no effort to hide behind a conservative facade. The most prominent of these groups is the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

which is closely watched by both the police and domestic intelligences services and whose lambda symbol is prohibited in several countries; there have been judicial proceedings not only against some leaders but against the members of whole chapters for hate speech, forming a criminal conspiracy, etc. The Movement's only saving grace is that appears to have steered clear from open neonazism so far (probably because it would get them banned straight away).

US Americans should also be aware that there are mature democracies where US Democrats would be seen as a moderately conservative and where calling them 'leftist' would be seen as ridiculous even by right extremists, where abortion, gun laws and religion are non-issues, and where hate speech is seen as a threat to national security actively persecuted by the state.

Again seen from a Continental European perspective, the OP's claim in the "Why is wikipedia often wrong about occult subjects" that the Romani were discriminated against by the political left is ludicrous - Hitler killed half a million of them, and after the war it was the conservatives who kept marginalizing them as was the tradition for centuries while the (moderate) left had to fight hard for their recognition as an ethnic minority which in some countries only happenend in the 1990ies.

As emotions tend to run high in Controversy threads, I would like to ask disputers to take the international perspective into consideration too since the original thread was about leftist political bias on an international (and not on an exclusively US domestic political) level as well.

Well said.

 

[Kepler]

The correction made wikipedia look effective and preventive of future issues taking up resources.

The Overton Window has been all over the place with the push to make hierarchal systems appear centrist, but in the last year the common opinion in democracies seems to be steadying on a nuanced egalitarian/secular/regulated free market as centrist. A position that's been successful. Politics that stray too far left or right from that being considered "far".

 

[Sabbatius]

One of Charlie Kirk's podcast episodes is literally titled "The Great Replacement is Real.' That's at least white nationalism adjacent.

And he was a christian nationalist too.

. Critical analysis of the Freedom Square Nights series launched in May 2021 at Dream City Church in Phoenix, Arizona, illustrates Kirk’s particularism. Kirk promoted “spiritual warfare” against the “dehumanizing” and “Satanic” tactics of the “woke left,” public educators, and marginalized identities that he believes threaten American society. He urged attendees to “demand the welfare” of their cities and “reclaim the country for Christ” by proscription and “political extinction(s).”

Why would an occultist defend someone who wants you GONE.

Define "Gone."

 

[Beyond Everything]

Define "Gone."

The Dominionists would decide the definition. Kirk was very tight with them.

 

[Sabbatius]

The Dominionists would decide the definition. Kirk was very tight with them.

I am only wondering what you insinuated with "gone" because it has a multitude of meaning.
Are you stating that Kirk and his followers want Occultists dead, or locked up?
Because constitutionally, both intentions have no hold in law- unless the general Occult world would have to start breaking laws to get targeted, and most are armchair magicians, outright weird wannabe guru-types or have no backbone due to being unhealthy-psychologically introverted. Sadly, the stereotypes have some validity.

Honestly, I am not worried. The Second Satanic Panic was attempted less than ten years ago and it failed miserably.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I am only wondering what you insinuated with "gone" because it has a multitude of meaning.
Are you stating that Kirk and his followers want Occultists dead, or locked up?
Because constitutionally, both intentions have no hold in law- unless the general Occult world would have to start breaking laws to get targeted, and most are armchair magicians, outright weird wannabe guru-types or have no backbone due to being unhealthy-psychologically introverted. Sadly, the stereotypes have some validity.

Honestly, I am not worried. The Second Satanic Panic was attempted less than ten years ago and it failed miserably.

The whole point of Dominionism is to replace the secular laws with religious laws, ie the 10 commandments have priority over the Constitution. That would spell big trouble for alternative types.

I cant read Kirks now scattered mind, but being close to such people certainly indicates a far right disposition at least. Which was my point.

 

[Sabbatius]

The whole point of Dominionism is to replace the secular laws with religious laws, ie the 10 commandments have priority over the Constitution.

So, basically you are referencing the Calvinist ideology on State-sanctioned Christian Moralism.
Still, I am not worried. The fifteen minutes of discussion will be gone soon.

 

[Faria]

I never followed CK, don't really care about him being alive or dead, and was actually shocked to find out he was such a big deal when all this time I assumed he was just some social media kid. BUT it has opened some interesting national conversations.

One of Charlie Kirk's podcast episodes is literally titled "The Great Replacement is Real.' That's at least white nationalism adjacent.

And he was a christian nationalist too.

Christian nationalist, ok, but white nationalism? I don't see it. We've all been shown a ton of CK shorts over the past couple of weeks, and I haven't seen anything in those to label that guy a racist or white nationalist.

As far as the US having a Christian leaning, what's new? That aspect of the USA has been pushed back and forth since its beginning. It gives people a sense of cultural standards, which is really what people like CK are aiming to produce. The Christian Nationalism thing, outside of its organizers who are mostly predatory, is about having some sense of cultural identity. It's just an obvious fact that when people get together on the same page philosophically, they can do more and do it with greater efficiency.

The "Great Replacement" theory is that white workers are/will be pushed out by imported foreigners willing to work for less and endure worse domestic conditions, an argument similar to the one aimed at Ai as a replacement for labor. The incentives/assistance given to foreigners, while many Americans struggle, is often cited as an example of this happening as a deliberate strategy to manipulate electoral maps and labor wages. A person might argue that it's not some grand transformation of society, but to say that it's not happening at all is ridiculous.

America, as we know it, depends on some form of slavery. At one time it was underpaid Irish and Italians, and generally speaking those demographics are still way below the Connecticut blondies in terms of ownership and political power. Between overseas labor and illegals making substandard wages, the "economic productivity" of the USA is a veneer, under which you find unpleasant and unrewarding labor. Letting in too many people with too few legitimate opportunities is bad for them, bad for us, and perpetuates a system dependent on labor exploitation.

Why would an occultist defend someone who wants you GONE.

The Dalai Lama also thinks of magic and occultism as "anti-dharmic" and "not right living" and also wishes we would all give up and do the Buddha thing. Got some hate for him too?

Do you believe in climate change? or vaccines? Guess what, those scientific experts also think we are all better off gone.

We do not need the world to embrace or accept occultism. Almost everything that really gets people hopping in terms of occult literature came from the days when it was banned literature. There is a tremendous power in that. If the world was completely ho-hum about the occult, as if it were no more far-out than any other obscure hobby, how many of us would even be here on this forum? Centuries of fearful superstition was essential to the existence of Wizard Forums and similar sites.

And finally, CK was all about conversations. He had an opinion, stood by it, and asked people to explain themselves. That isn't a common strategy for anyone with an opinion, but it's one I'd prefer to see rather than people standing in the street with a megaphone and a sign telling us we are going to Hell.

 

[Beyond Everything]

as there to

I never followed CK, don't really care about him being alive or dead, and was actually shocked to find out he was such a big deal when all this time I assumed he was just some social media kid. BUT it has opened some interesting national conversations.



Christian nationalist, ok, but white nationalism? I don't see it. We've all been shown a ton of CK shorts over the past couple of weeks, and I haven't seen anything in those to label that guy a racist or white nationalist.

He was the gateway drug. The blatant, chanting white nationalists who showed up at his memorials know this very well. No one told them to shut up or leave

As far as the US having a Christian leaning, what's new? That aspect of the USA has been pushed back and forth since its beginning. It gives people a sense of cultural standards, which is really what people like CK are aiming to produce. The Christian Nationalism thing, outside of its organizers who are mostly predatory, is about having some sense of cultural identity. It's just an obvious fact that when people get together on the same page philosophically, they can do more and do it with greater efficiency.

Dominionism is not leaning christian. It's the belief christianity should dominate society completely, including legally.

The "Great Replacement" theory is that white workers are/will be pushed out by imported foreigners willing to work for less and endure worse domestic conditions, an argument similar to the one aimed at Ai as a replacement for labor. The incentives/assistance given to foreigners, while many Americans struggle, is often cited as an example of this happening as a deliberate strategy to manipulate electoral maps and labor wages. A person might argue that it's not some grand transformation of society, but to say that it's not happening at all is ridiculous.

No. The great replacement theory is that whites are purposely being targeted qua whites. Youre putting the cart before the horse

The Dalai Lama also thinks of magic and occultism as "anti-dharmic" and "not right living" and also wishes we would all give up and do the Buddha thing. Got some hate for him too?

Well, Tibet was a feudal theocracy before China invaded (I'm not saying I support Chinese totalitarianism). I think comparing the Dalai Lama in his current views to Dominionists doesn't work.

Do you believe in climate change? or vaccines? Guess what, those scientific experts also think we are all better off gone.

Why would vaccination mean we are all better off gone.

And finally, CK was all about conversations. He had an opinion, stood by it, and asked people to explain themselves. That isn't a common strategy for anyone with an opinion, but it's one I'd prefer to see rather than people standing in the street with a megaphone and a sign telling us we are going to Hell.

This is really naive as to how aspiring power operates.

 

[frater_pan]

So, basically you are referencing the Calvinist ideology on State-sanctioned Christian Moralism.
Still, I am not worried. The fifteen minutes of discussion will be gone soon.

It's not fifteen minutes of discussion. The Dominionists are the primary group within the Christian Evangelicals now and even though Evangelicals are not the dominant group of Christians, they exert a dominant influence on Christianity as a socio-cultural-political force.

They are not going away in US culture and have long since morphed into de facto neo-Nazi thinking (in fact most of them have morphed into actual anti-Christian thought wrt the bulk of Jesus' teaching).

They do want to eliminate any thought not consistent with their theology and this elimination will not be confined to just firing people from every level of employment (firing everyone they can who doesn't comport to their thinking is only the begining).

 

[Faria]

He was the gateway drug. The blatant, chanting white nationalists who showed up at his memorials know this very well. No one told them to shut up or leave

People are upset that a significant part of the US political machine is heavily invested in importing 3rd world people into the US, giving them financial support, and prioritizing their demographics in labor hiring and government subsidies. These people are not being imported from majority-white nations. When poor Americans get upset about this, they get called "racist." A lot of actual racists see this as their big opportunity to speak up. When it comes down to brass tacks, the enthusiasm for the racist aspects of it ("preserve America as a majority white nation") is fairly low, but they are essentially on the same team as the people opposing illegal immigration and the designation of those people as "refugees."

A lot of people who are anti-Israel and pro-Palestine are fundamentally opposed to the Hamas ideology of intolerant Islam. Yet these same people aren't out there protesting Hamas, and instead they are willing to tolerate the anti-LGBT stance of Hamas because those guys are doing the hard work of fighting Israel. Sometimes it makes sense to not run off people who support your cause, even if you don't like them. A similar thing is happening with the CK movement, where if they need to tolerate some evil rednecks, it's better than tolerating 20 million 3rd world people overtaking the entire lower echelon of your economy on behalf of and for the benefit of exempt globalist billionaires.

Dominionism is not leaning christian. It's the belief christianity should dominate society completely, including legally.

That's just how people are. Religion is like the skeleton of a society, everywhere in the world. Culture doesn't expand without it, whatever the religion might be.

Why would vaccination mean we are all better off gone.

Scientific authorities tend to be adored by the Left. A majority of occult and pagan types I've encountered are all-in for "follow the science" topics like Climate Change, mass vaccination, transgenderism, and other subjects wherein a person arguing might point to a stack of funded academic studies and say, "Here is proof!" There is a sense of security gained from claiming the science is on your side. But these same scientists, at least the majority of them, would likely say that all of what we discuss here is crap, and that we are fools for being interested in it. If we are all going to give the middle finger to the CK people for thinking we suck, we should do the same for the science people too.

This is really naive as to how aspiring power operates.

I believe that Netanyahu killed CK after he turned against Israel. That is how power operates.

CK's method was open public discourse in which the opposing side has a chance to make their case. Most of the time, the people making arguments against him were trying to argue ideas they had not fully considered. If they were humiliated by that, they should have thought more about their beliefs before displaying them to be challenged. I would rather have a world in which we are able to have a public discourse without any limits on the content, instead of one in which people forcibly remove anyone with a strong contrary opinion.

 

[Beyond Everything]

When it comes down to brass tacks, the enthusiasm for the racist aspects of it ("preserve America as a majority white nation") is fairly low, but they are essentially on the same team as the people opposing illegal immigration and the designation of those people as "refugees."

And Kirk went out of his way to use neo-nazi coded language The Great Replacement. Since it's Kirk that is under discussion, we should ask why he felt a need to do that.

That's just how people are. Religion is like the skeleton of a society, everywhere in the world. Culture doesn't expand without it, whatever the religion might be.

This is laughable. No, not everyone is a religious fascist.

Scientific authorities tend to be adored by the Left. A majority of occult and pagan types I've encountered are all-in for "follow the science" topics like Climate Change, mass vaccination, transgenderism, and other subjects wherein a person arguing might point to a stack of funded academic studies and say, "Here is proof!" There is a sense of security gained from claiming the science is on your side. But these same scientists, at least the majority of them, would likely say that all of what we discuss here is crap, and that we are fools for being interested in it. If we are all going to give the middle finger to the CK people for thinking we suck, we should do the same for the science people too.

No, we are not 'giving the middle finger to the CK people for thinking we suck'. "We' are opposing christo-fascism. This too is laughable.

CK's method was open public discourse in which the opposing side has a chance to make their case. Most of the time, the people making arguments against him were trying to argue ideas they had not fully considered. If they were humiliated by that, they should have thought more about their beliefs before displaying them to be challenged. I would rather have a world in which we are able to have a public discourse without any limits on the content, instead of one in which people forcibly remove anyone with a strong contrary opinion.

Kirk has been lionized by the state apparatus and the corporate media following his death. Many people trying to use their free speech regarding him have been persecuted. It was fine for Kirk to make fun of the Pelosi hammer attack, but individuals quoting kirk's own words are facing consequences. He wasn't some rebel, he was the more acceptable face of christo-fascists. His end interest wasn't a free and open society but one dominated by a pernicious religion.

 

[Faria]

And Kirk went out of his way to use neo-nazi coded language The Great Replacement. Since it's Kirk that is under discussion, we should ask why he felt a need to do that.

Are you calling The Great Replacement a "neo-nazi coded language?" What if we called it The Migrant Crisis?

Do you disbelieve that there is a large scale migration of people from non-white countries into predominantly white ones? I think that is, at this point, beyond dispute. Are you aware of the vast amount spent by billionaires on accomplishing this? What do you expect they are trying to accomplish by doing that?

Why don't we see these migrants being funneled into places in eastern Asia like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, or China?

This is laughable. No, not everyone is a religious fascist.

The religions that fight for territory are the ones that win and survive. The history of India is warfare. The history of Arabia is warfare. The history of Europe is warfare. The Mesoamericans ate people. Communism (arguably a religion) killed tens of millions of people. Destroying other people's stuff to make yours succeed is just part of human nature.

No, we are not 'giving the middle finger to the CK people for thinking we suck'. "We' are opposing christo-fascism. This too is laughable.

Can you elaborate on this concept of Christo-fascism?

There are some specific legislative changes that most of the Christian Right would approve. Things like curtailed illegal immigration, an end to demographics-based hiring practices, an end to elective late-term abortion, and a removal of emphasis on gender from public education, all of which are seen by them as destabilizing to American culture. If you are here illegally, they don't want you, and want law enforcement to remove you. If you refuse to hire white people for being white, they don't want you having that power and want legislation to stop you. If you believe that a woman has a natural right to terminate a late-term pregnancy without any reason other than because she wants to, they want that to be treated as infant murder. If you want to teach kids that boys can magically become female through drugs and genital mutilation, they don't want you having any part of child care, and expect laws to back them up. Where is the fascism? I see difference of opinion and an attempt to make laws to support those opinions.

Many people trying to use their free speech regarding him have been persecuted.

What happened to people who refused to take the vax? What happened to people who said All Lives Matter? I don't call it "persecution" when someone gets fired for making comments their employer disapproves. If my employee was going around telling people how great Israel is online, I would fire her, is that persecution?

 

[Beyond Everything]

I'm finding it difficult to take your arguments seriously. Clearly you know the Christian Right wants to ban all abortions, not just late term ones. Why would you misrepresent something like that?

 

[Faria]

I'm finding it difficult to take your arguments seriously. Clearly you know the Christian Right wants to ban all abortions, not just late term ones. Why would you misrepresent something like that?

I have yet to see a legislative package that denies abortions deemed medically necessary, and no such laws exist in any US state.

After many years of endless discussions on this topic, I have found that a total ban with zero exceptions whatsoever is only supported by the smallest of factions.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Per Pew- About three-quarters of White evangelical Protestants (73%) think abortion should be illegal in all or most cases.

Just talking about late term is a real distortion

 

[Faria]

Per Pew- About three-quarters of White evangelical Protestants (73%) think abortion should be illegal in all or most cases.

Just talking about late term is a real distortion

Yes, and I agree with them, and am probably even more extreme as I believe it should be restricted to mortal danger only and that elective abortion should be outlawed entirely no matter what the circumstances of pregnancy. I bring up elective late-term abortion because I think it's fairly obvious to most people that aborting a child who would live and be OK if born a bit early is a morally wrong thing to do, and yet the insane laws we have allow this to happen at a rate of at least 1000 times per year, and twice as often in recent years. Christians see this as a grossly immoral action that has been made accessible by unaccountable billionaires who weaseled it into federal law. They are very happy to have an opportunity to return the legislation to the states, so that majority-Christian states are not forced to comply with federal policies. Making things illegal is not the same as fascism. Law enforcement is not the same as fascism. I get that the Christians are making laws that support their beliefs, but where is this fascism?