[Help] Confidence in the Occult

[lucah]

Hello, I am a newer occultist trying to find magick I can completely believe will function/has functioned. TLDR skip to the last sentence.

I understand having a bit of skepticism and avoiding complete blind faith is wise, but I always find myself unable to really truly put away doubts in my mind that magick I perform works.

I've been traipsing this forum and other similar places and "practicing" for probably over a year now, but it has mostly been stepping my toe into different fields and researching different types of magick, as I don't have a real way of differentiating real from fake. I have done Geomancy, I-Ching, Energy Work, made altars, attempted rituals, invocations, and evocations with goetic demons, Christian angels, Lwa, and a handful of Greek, Egyptian, and African deities.

Throughout all of this, I've never encountered any magickal experiences or things truly definitive that I couldn't put out of my mind as being realistically something spawned by waiting long enough for something to happen, and then taking anything—from a simple change in air pressure to interpreting completely ambiguous inconclusive wording—to mean it worked. Perhaps it's because I have no recollection of any dreams in addition to aphantasia and so many guides rely on sleep or dreams or some sort of sense-based visualization, but all of my energy work used guides that claimed function even if one lacked such an imagination, so I can't truly believe that either.

The question I really have for people here is; what magick brought you to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the occult was real? Are there any particular things you would recommend to someone who revels in the physical, or does magick simply not deal in the physical world enough to bring much to one with dull senses and no imagination?

 

[Taudefindi]

Tell me one thing, how much time did you spend in each of your many "fields of magic"?
Was it all at once with all of them or did you go do one then not long after changed to another?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Well firstly, welcome to the forum!

What you describe is one of the most difficult things to shake off. A lot of the time, you can ruin magic by accidentally replacing your magical intent with "Gee, I hope this works!"

My advice would be to try sigil magic. It doesn't need some huge complex system and will give you practice in getting in the right headspace, which sounds like your difficulty. Search in the library for 'Sigil magic' and remember; one of the best ways of avoiding ruining magic is to instantly distract yourself with something else after launching the sigil.

Hey look! Godzilla!

 

[lucah]

Tell me one thing, how much time did you spend in each of your many "fields of magic"?
Was it all at once with all of them or did you go do one then not long after changed to another?

I've focused on each of them primarily at different times, though I have used Geomancy as a method of divination for attempting to contact deities/spirits, and Energy Work has been consistent during most of my year-ish time practicing. I started off researching and messing wiyh energy work and geomancy for about 2 months, I've always kept pretty decently up with building skills in energy work and have continued using geomancy occasionally since I began. After that I spent about a month after that trying to decide deities and spirits to attempt contact with/make prayer to and have been devoting some time to them for around 8-9 months, and I have within the past month or so begun attempting ritual with goetic demons.

My skills in each particular field aren't amazing, but I would feel by now I should have felt something working with what I have.

Post automatically merged: Aug 1, 2024

Well firstly, welcome to the forum!

What you describe is one of the most difficult things to shake off. A lot of the time, you can ruin magic by accidentally replacing your magical intent with "Gee, I hope this works!"

My advice would be to try sigil magic. It doesn't need some huge complex system and will give you practice in getting in the right headspace, which sounds like your difficulty. Search in the library for 'Sigil magic' and remember; one of the best ways of avoiding ruining magic is to instantly distract yourself with something else after launching the sigil.

Hey look! Godzilla!

I have looked over sigils, but I gave them liggle focus beyond a base skim and few minute readings. I will certainly look into it more, thank you, and thank you for the welcome!

 

[SkullTraill]

The question I really have for people here is; what magick brought you to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the occult was real?

1. Something suck
2. Did magick
3. Something not suck no more

Aside for people who were mentored, trained, indoctrinated in some type of high magick, I'm willing to bet that those 3 steps were the essence of what made anyone believe in or have confidence in magick. This is especially true for low magick.

The only thing that will convince you (maybe not beyond a shadow of a doubt - but at least enough that only a shadow of a doubt is left - which is good enough) is just doing some magick, for as long as you can stay interested in it, and if it works, you will have confidence in magick, if it doesn't, you won't and you can just give up on it, honestly.

There is no need to overthink this.

 

[Asteriskos]

1. Something suck
2. Did magick
3. Something not suck no more

Aside for people who were mentored, trained, indoctrinated in some type of high magick, I'm willing to bet that those 3 steps were the essence of what made anyone believe in or have confidence in magick. This is especially true for low magick.

The only thing that will convince you (maybe not beyond a shadow of a doubt - but at least enough that only a shadow of a doubt is left - which is good enough) is just doing some magick, for as long as you can stay interested in it, and if it works, you will have confidence in magick, if it doesn't, you won't and you can just give up on it, honestly.

There is no need to overthink this.

For Sure, after taking the plunge and Doing something, a Synchronicity occurs, the original issue changes because the Odds have been Altered!

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2024

I've focused on each of them primarily at different times, though I have used Geomancy as a method of divination for attempting to contact deities/spirits, and Energy Work has been consistent during most of my year-ish time practicing. I started off researching and messing wiyh energy work and geomancy for about 2 months, I've always kept pretty decently up with building skills in energy work and have continued using geomancy occasionally since I began. After that I spent about a month after that trying to decide deities and spirits to attempt contact with/make prayer to and have been devoting some time to them for around 8-9 months, and I have within the past month or so begun attempting ritual with goetic demons.

My skills in each particular field aren't amazing, but I would feel by now I should have felt something working with what I have.

Post automatically merged: Aug 1, 2024

I have looked over sigils, but I gave them liggle focus beyond a base skim and few minute readings. I will certainly look into it more, thank you, and thank you for the welcome!

Like Robert mentioned, Sigil magic is often an intro practice, Candle magic is too, neither need be real complex to show results. Other options are many various forms of Folk magic, most cultures have their own folk magic forms that are pretty easy to learn. I got results from folk magic which did indeed convince me it's Real. You might look into Hoodoo / Southern Conjure for some ideas, The thing about folk magic is the abundance of forms, and they all work pretty similarly. Wish you well, it's an Adventure! Looking around this forum a real eye opener too!

 

[Ziran]

I have done Geomancy, I-Ching, Energy Work, made altars, attempted rituals, invocations, and evocations with goetic demons, Christian angels, Lwa, and a handful of Greek, Egyptian, and African deities.

That's a lot.

practicing" for probably over a year now,

That's not very long.

Perhaps it's because ...

... you need to spend more time specializing?

 

[lucah]

That's not very long.

It's not, and I recognize I haven't spent an extreme amount of time on much, but it's an amount of time where I'd start to think I should see something. Many of my friends have claimed to have prophetic dreams, clairaudience, and brought about very specific actions within others, so I simply found it strange I had nothing I could personally consider proof I was actually achieving anything at all.

I will do more research into candles and sigils and spend more of my time practicing then, no harm comes from continuing my work even if I'm not sure of myself. I very much appreciate the answers so far!

 

[IllusiveOwl]

A large part - for me - has been recognizing the role that belief has in shaping the experience we have of the world. I used to be very confident in the claims of science, but the more you dig, you discover how little scientists actually understand this material world and what drives it. Life is still a mystery, so removing certainty is a great deterrent to hubris (the confidence that is the foundation upon which you can doubt). Socrates didn't doubt because he knew he knew jackshit, he used logic to find truth, not faith or dogma.

It's hard to throw yourself into the unknown without direct experience though, nous & gnosis help a lot with that. I had personally had an extrasensory experience while practicing zazen that 100% confirmed for me that we are more than these gross bodies and that we are able to consciously exist on different planes (and that existing on different planes feels fucking amazing by the way, the peace and freedom was unlike anything I've experienced before).

Magic has old and serious roots. Maybe start with philosiphy and theology, like the Emerald Tablet, the Nag Hamadi library, sutras (which are full of psychic monk action), Yoga books, or Hindu scripture. You'll find magical and psychic claims in almost every one. Finding out just how storied and common magical practice is will help normalize it for you. It's less that Magic isn't realistic, it's just that we haven't been exposed to it much in the west, to make way for science. The West did create the internet after all, so its a worthy sacrifice... but it's about time we refamiarized ourselves with our roots using this incredible global library

Rather than jumping straight to practice, I suggest you build your philosophical ground first, from which you will practice and do your workings.

 

[Ziran]

brought about very specific actions within others

This is interesting to me. Very specific? Did your friends have those specific actions in mind while they were working their craft? Did they choose, in advance, the very specific desired outcome? And then, poof, magic, what they specifically desired happened? In my experience, speaking just for myself, magic does not work that way at all. If / when that occurs it is in the category of "wishing on a star" and there was a happy-accident, chaos worked in their favor, but it will never be consistently reproducible.

Many of my friends have claimed

How many?

There is a type of magic called "belief magic", it's a type of sorcery. Personal affirmations and making claims which are validated by others gives the caster a psychological boost to their confidence, more or less. Confidence is great, useful, powerful medicine, and magical in its own way. But the claims and the affirmations are not anchored to real tangible results. On examination of the methods employed and the results, its usually easy to see that the individual caster is not manipulating the forces of nature in a way which is conventionally considered "magical".

prophetic dreams

Good. Prophecy. Dreams. Great example. If a person wants to build their confidence in their magical talent, it's easy to accomplish that interpreting dreams and prophecy. This is because dreams and prophecies are abstractions. One abstract concept, image, or event can point to many specific occurrences here-and-now. It's a one-to-many relationship. When starting with an abstraction, the deck is stacked in favor of the caster that they will find an accurate, specific, interpretation which fits the dream or the prophecy.

Religious gurus and preachers have been using prophecy to recruit disciples for thousands of years. The interpretation is casting an illusion of "divinity resting on them". Then this is coupled with the affirmation, validation, of belief magic, building up the caster's confidence in a profound manner. Add to that some psychological transference if the caster and their audience have bond of friendship, student-teacher, authority, etc? Poof. The preacher appears as if a spirit is blessing them and indwelling in their heart delivered to them by God Almighty, right there, in front of the eyes of the audience.

The thing is: that's real. That's magic. The desired outcome was recruitment and ... drumroll ... faith. Faith in the caster ( preacher ) and faith in their god. This sort of magic has been employed successfully for thousands of years, and it happens every day of the week, all around the globe. And, this sort of practice can lead to other much more powerful and useful techniques. It starts out as a sort of stage magic. But there's a lot there if the techniques are refined with care, love, and patience.

I will do more research into candles and sigils and spend more of my time practicing then, no harm comes from continuing my work even if I'm not sure of myself. I very much appreciate the answers so far!

My advice for you is to follow your heart and specialize in a craft which ignites your passion. What you're doing now, forgive me, sounds like you are throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. Unless you're very lucky, odds are, this is going to become frustrating disappointing quickly. It's already disappointing, right?

The underlying mechanism for almost all effective magic is layering. It's like making a layered cake. The baker ( a chef ) is passionate about their cake, and they devote a tremendous amount of time layering the cake, making it perfect. All the details are in sync with the mood they want to cast on the recipient. That's what I think you should be looking for. Passion. Passion about a craft such that you are in love with it. You want to learn it, and practice it, in all of its dimensions. You want to explore its secrets, probe its depth, ride the waves on its surface, and even the inevitable repeated wipe-outs are part of the excitement and pleasure you receive from the magical pursuit.

When you are researching candles and sigils, I suggest you pay attention to the feelings in your heart. Are you passionate about these art-forms? If not, my vote? It's a waste of time for you. If your heart isn't impassioned, then don't force it. Try it? Sure. Dip your toes in the water? Of course. Why not? Maybe something will happen for you. But probably not.

no harm comes from continuing my work even if I'm not sure of myself.

I disagree to an extent. If you become disappointed and frustrated because your friends are reporting success and you aren't, I think that's harmful. Perhaps you have magical talent and aspirations which will get swept under the carpet and abandoned. That doesn't feel good to me, when I imagine it in my mind. It would be better, imo, to find something that feels right in your heart and mind when you are imagining yourself doing the work.

For example: It's going to be hot outside today where I am, and, I have a plan. I'm doing all my outside activities early. Right now, I'm up early. I can see myself, in my mind's eye, getting all those tasks completed. Early. This feels good and satisfying in my heart and mind. I like this plan. I know what I want to do. The outcome ( the target ) is achievable. And I'm thinking, right now, imagining ( dreaming ), I'm execute this plan, and I am already sitting in the AC this afternoon enjoying the fruits of my labor. Yes. My heart and mind like this plan.

Were you able to follow the example? The key-point, which I think is missing right now, for you, is focus, a target. What do you want? Do you know? Have you thought about it? You sound curious. And the fool's journey is a viable path to follow. ( If you're not familiar with this notion, the archetypical "fool" is motivated by curiosity and nothing else ). However, this doesn't feel like a suitable path for you at this time in your life. Based on what you've written, continuing to work while not sure of yourself feels foolish to me. Foolish, but, not in a good way.

 

[Shade]

OP, With sigil magic there are some good books to read to explain them, like one by Adam Blackthorne and Peter J. Carrol which gives a breakdown of Chaos Magick and Sigils. It’s a very logical albeit less fancy way of things. It is meant to bring about results in the most bare bones way.

 

[HoldAll]

You might want to read Frater U.D.'s Practical Sigil Magic. Mind you, chaos-style sigil magic is about real-life results, not dramatic mystical experiences, and those results will usually manifest as 'happy coincidences', so that type of magic may not be suitable to convince you unequivocally of the validity of the occult.

 

[Ziran]

that existing on different planes feels fucking amazing by the way, the peace and freedom was unlike anything I've experienced before

+1

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2024

chaos-style sigil magic is about real-life results, not dramatic mystical experiences

Can you imagine bringing those two together? chaos-style sigil magic + dramatic mystical experiences? Perhaps I should reverse that? Start with putting oneself into the mystical "zone", so to speak, then casting using a sigil that's been previously tested and known to work for the individual?

Mystical "Zone" >>> Sigil Magic

Storm Clouds >>> Lightning Striking

 

[Asteriskos]

It's not, and I recognize I haven't spent an extreme amount of time on much, but it's an amount of time where I'd start to think I should see something. Many of my friends have claimed to have prophetic dreams, clairaudience, and brought about very specific actions within others, so I simply found it strange I had nothing I could personally consider proof I was actually achieving anything at all.

I will do more research into candles and sigils and spend more of my time practicing then, no harm comes from continuing my work even if I'm not sure of myself. I very much appreciate the answers so far!

Each of us has different levels of innate abilities. If a friend has more natural "clair et al" ability than yourself it simply means it will require a bit more effort to catch up. If they don't or won't apply themselves You Will Surpass them in your capacity! It took me a while to "get" that, because my Wife has more Innate ability in some areas than I do. With Invocations, it's usually necessary to "Enflame" one's self over some time period to see results. Unfortunately we don't all Start out at the same point, but Everyone Can Succeed. It's Crucial to Want to Succeed!

 

[HoldAll]

Can you imagine bringing those two together? chaos-style sigil magic + dramatic mystical experiences? Perhaps I should reverse that? Start with putting oneself into the mystical "zone", so to speak, then casting using a sigil that's been previously tested and known to work for the individual?

Mystical "Zone" >>> Sigil Magic

Storm Clouds >>> Lightning Striking

For me, there indeed used to be something mystical about drawing the sigil and then charging it but it wasn't something I was going to promise the OP, everybody's different in that respect. Knowing what I know today, I would focus more on the experience of the sigil-drawing process itself instead of the desired result to give it more power... Spare's idea should be developed further along more traditional lines, I'd say, to make such operations more ritualistically impressive. I've already thought about 'putting myself in the zone', enter a light trance & try some automatic drawing... and use a mediative state coupled with gestures for charging instead of all those dramatic methods to induce 'gnosis'. What's more, I don't buy the original Carroll philosophy anymore according to which you have to implant your sigilized desire in your subconscious in order to circumvent the dreaded Psychic Censor - that model needs to be reformed, IMHO.

 

[Ziran]

enter a light trance & try some automatic drawing... and use a mediative state coupled with gestures for charging instead of all those dramatic methods to induce 'gnosis'.

I was thinking about a deep mystical state then the sigil is deployed in a technique similar to lucid dreaming.

the sigil-drawing process

I would describe this as "imprinting". The drawing ritual is producing a sort of intellectual "muscle memory" which permits recalling the sigil while in the depths of the waking dream, the mystical state.

To be clear, this is what I'm thinking:

Practice, practice, practice the drawing. Practice, practice, practice entering the deep mystical state.

Then, when needed, a few quick breaths, then a well known meditative technique is employed, then the sigil is recalled at the peak of the depth ( paradox intended ) of the mystical state, then the caster returns to here-and-now a few moments later. Zap!

I don't buy the original Carroll philosophy anymore according to which you have to implant your sigilized desire in your subconscious in order to circumvent the dreaded Psychic Censor - that model needs to be reformed, IMHO.

Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I have no clue who Carroll is much less their philosophy. But, it could be they're correct about implanting, correct that there's a benefit, but wrong about the particular reasons for the imprinting, and wrong about the specific benefits.

Thoughts?

 

[HoldAll]

Well, fortunately or unfortunately, I have no clue who Carroll is much less their philosophy. But, it could be they're correct about implanting, correct that there's a benefit, but wrong about the particular reasons for the imprinting, and wrong about the specific benefits.

Thoughts?

If you don't know who Peter J. Carroll is, then you are presumably not familiar with Austin Osma Spare's sigilization method either: you basically take the letters of your Sentence of Desire (= what you want to achieve by your operation) and use them to draw your sigil. In practical terms, this usually means several drafts (esp. when you're artistically hopeless like me), paring down here, adding a few ornamentations there, avoiding excessive symmetry, finally deciding whether to put the sigil into a circle, an oval, or whatever. Up until that time you need your wits together but after this drafting stage, a trance could help one to make the sigil really impressive and striking instead of some random doodle, I think. There are even online programs for that process where you only have to enter your Sentence of Desire, press enter and voilà, you get a nice clean software-generated sigil. Misses the point entirely.

However, this thread isn't about sigil magic but about the OP's disillusionment with the occult so far. It seems to me that @lucah is after actual visual or tangible experiences, results-based magic may not cut the mustard.

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maybe? Those barbarous names can be pretty evocative, and you're basically turning yourself into a god…

 

[Khoren_]

However, this thread isn't about sigil magic but about the OP's disillusionment with the occult so far. It seems to me that @lucah is after actual visual or tangible experiences, results-based magic may not cut the mustard.

I remember watching an Alan Watts video where he was interviewing a dude who does a lot of necronomicon work, and the dude asked if Watts wanted him to perform one of the rituals, and they recorded it.

The guy was in the middle of the Arizona steppes (I think) and was doing this super elaborate ritual to summon one of the Old Ones. He put his back into it - so to speak.

Ultimately nothing really happened and I think about that a lot when I do my magic.

 

[Shade]

Austin Osman Spare’s method is the one I use, but I also use pure frequencies or classical music as a means to help visualization practices before sleep, it helps being able to eventually get a solid picture of the sigil in your mind till you feel it’s comfortably in your subconscious.
as you said though.. the OP wants tangible proof and sigil magick is more of a brain hack towards a desire goal.

there is one thing the OP could try and it’s up to them wether they take it as proof or the mind playing tricks.

There is a Greek method that is combined with modern day occult practices where you do a cleanse and a 24hr or 48hr fast, go into a completely silent room with absolutely no light except for a few natural candle flames behind/to the side of you with the room smelling of incense (I forget which kind) you stare facing a black polished surface/mirror, meditate with the deities sigil in your mind with your eyes closed, chanting “aum” (like ”om” only full spectrum of Ahhh-uuhhh-mmm) open your eyes be Silent and stare into the mirror while still holding onto the seal’s image in the back of your mind. The reflection you see back will eventually not be your own but could be a very distorted view of yourself you didn’t see previously or could be a completely different image/face.
It does take a lot of patience and dedication, results as mentioned will vary ofc and it’s important to stay hydrated during the cleanse and fast, preferably with quality water as to not to taint the cleanse.

 

[Ziran]

this thread isn't about sigil magic

I'll not ask any further questions then.

If you don't know who Peter J. Carroll is, then you are presumably not familiar with Austin Osma Spare's sigilization method either

No. I'm rather sheltered in certain ways. Thanks for the info. I very much appreciate it.