[Opinion] Demonolaters are poor magicians

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Just my opinion watching demonolaters at work over the course of a year, but I've busted my butt at Magick for years, some hits, a lot of misses. One might say I'm a poor magician, and that may be true.

Yet one thing I can say, I haven't been holding hands with angels or demons to get to be a good magician by handholding with "patrons".

I must say however, some feats were beyond me whether or not the results I wanted were manifested how I wanted them to. Most cases were complete chaos. Yet it seems to me without handholding patrons they would be more or less like me.

Sure, they've more knowledge and skill than I, but anyone who can focus and concentrate can progress faster than I can.

My point? Your patrons saved your asses rather than wallowing for years in tears of no results.

Now, there are some good ones out there, not gonna name names however.

Post automatically merged: Dec 28, 2023

Tye reason I say this, is that I doubt they gave the Golden Dawn or Thelema type systems the old college try at the RHP, or most are edgelord would be armchair magicians without handholding a patron spirit.

 

[Xenophon]

Of course, there are a great many LHP folks who say exactly the same thing. The "Joy of Satan" crowd, to cite but one, teach that evoking demons is like a set of training wheels on a kid's bike.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I probably created this post in a period of angst. I do agree with you on your points.

 

[Xenophon]

I probably created this post in a period of angst. I do agree with you on your points.

If I wasn't chronically buttsore, I'd never start a thread

 

[TheHummingbirdWizard]

Well they tend to be uneducated in regards to the work they are doing and the entities they are calling up. Therein lies their problem.

They may actually possess a certain aptitude for ritual and ceremony or of the various faculties that need to be commanded by a magician.

These things will avail them not however if they're fundamental relationship to the entities they are working with is flawed.

Even the witches who will work with infernal beings as familiar spirits on a more peer-based interaction, no better than to worship these entities or give them ground over them.

I also want to point out that there is nothing wrong with being LHP. However, what you often see today is not true lhp but the edge Lords and dark fluff that you speak of. At the same time you can take the RHP to an unhealthy extreme. We too often forget that we have both hands and that what we call lhp and RHP were in most tribal societies seen as part of a cycle: of going to the fringes of your Society to experience what may be considered taboo and then to bring that medicine back to your community and so far is that community was ready for it. To use a political example they are two wings of the same bird. You a little bit of the other and your path if it is to progress. If all you have is order nothing changes and everything stagnates. If all you have is turbulence nothing can become established and grow.

Frater Achar, in his book Rosicrucianism Magic, though this book would be classified by many as white magic and right hand path, does an excellent job explaining the left and right hands and how they work together. You might miss it because it is not within the context of how the magical community tends to apply those terms.

I find the term the demonolatry to be amisnomer coined by those who had no idea what they were doing. I'm just going to come out and say it.

To an earlier point, there are many skills that need to come together to be an effective magician. Crowley is often idolized, and one could say that he was a brilliant ritualist, however he was a piss poor magician. He rarely finished what he started and most of his operations blew up in his face. It did not help that he constantly wanted to change things to suit his own views without first understanding why they were the way they were in the first place. I am not saying it is wrong to change things to fit one to needs but as an electrician you don't completely rewire a system to the way you want without first understanding how electricity works and how that system was designed. Crowley did a lot of that and he didn't particularly care who got hurt during his experiments.

I look at demonolatry and see much of the same reckless abandon. Now I want to be clear, if your aim is to take a demon that was once seen as a God and restore it to a God form, that is entirely different, and bringing forth the Divine Fire within it it is no longer an infernal being devoid of divinity.

To that end the term infernal divine is absolutely ludicrous. These are not Divine beings and should not be treated as such unless you are helping them become Divine beings. Yes, I hold the view that everything is sacred, all things coming from and being sustained by divinity. However, we don't go around saying the Divine pencil or the Divine share because that would make the word divine meaningless in our everyday speech. If everything is divine then there is no reason to specifically state that something is divine unless it is exalted and such a way that it is easier to attune to the divine within it. By using the term infernal divine, one is giving people a complete misread of these entities and it is downright irresponsible.

 

[BloodOfBakula]

I feel personally attacked.



Unless you're practicing eastern medicine, you're going to work with a deity in some form - though there's no guarantee they'll help you, so your ritual work might just blow back in your face.

It's peer-to-peer, or a trade. Anyone who states otherwise, doesn't practice ( imo ).

 

[Roma]

you're going to work with a deity in some form

My own interest is in entities that have organic functions in the cosmos and carry out those functions.

Tourists and carpetbaggers can move along

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

Unless you're practicing eastern medicine, you're going to work with a deity in some form - though there's no guarantee they'll help you, so your ritual work might just blow back in your face.

I second this. One way or another, you do have to work with someone, only question is who it'll be and on what terms.

 

[Mannimarco]

I second this. One way or another, you do have to work with someone, only question is who it'll be and on what terms.

Someday I want to build a magickal system involving only Source and the inherent human components, like a persons higher self and kundalini. Until then, entities it is.

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

magickal system involving only Source and the inherent human components, like a persons higher self and kundalini

I may be wrong, but I feel like when you're enlightened* enough to work with the Source itself without any intermediators, you don't need systems and don't have purpose for them. It's whole other level of consciousness and perception of things.



*I'm not sure if it's the proper term in English, but I hope you get what I mean

 

[Misty Mystic]

My demonolatry period served extremelly well to me and my magick. I'm still getting insides from this brief couple of years 20+ years ago. That's why I suppose it to be priceless.

I think the use of any magick backgrounds like this is a matter of personal properties, methods, right choice of patrons and little portion of luck

 

[Mannimarco]

I may be wrong, but I feel like when you're enlightened* enough to work with the Source itself without any intermediators, you don't need systems and don't have purpose for them. It's whole other level of consciousness and perception of things.



*I'm not sure if it's the proper term in English, but I hope you get what I mean

That may well be the case. There may also be levels to how well a person can work with Source at the time. For example, I work with Source through meditation. But it may be more effective to do full on astral projection or soul journeys to Source. I can't do that yet, so I do what I can.

 

[theil]

@Diluculo_DelFuego Not to derail your post but for me, it's more about self-alchemy than working magick in regards to Demonolaters. Perhaps this does fit with your opinion that they make poor magicians...
Myself, I'm more aligned with the mystical side of magick...getting caught up with experiencing source, the luminous presence of consciousness, etc. Researching daemonolatry/demonolatry and doing some pathworking with some entities from the goetia recently, I'm starting to understand people better and I feel grounded. That's been the biggest surprise for me, is gaining deeper compassion for people and gaining a better connection with physical existence.
This could be the reason several months ago when I was starting back up a magickal practice I was so leery about working with angels. I didn't know that I instinctually knew angels weren't want I needed at this stage in my life. I feel more comfortable adding angels now since I know to keep the two realms balanced.

 

[pixel_fortune]

One way or another, you do have to work with someone, only question is who it'll be and on what terms.

So until relatively recently, I was not operating on the spirit model. But I've used sigils and things like jar spells, witchcraft-style, magic with success for a long time. I turned to spirit/deity work out of a desire to engage more deeply with the world, not because the results weren't there

Do you reckon I WAS working with spirits, but didn't realise it? Like with a jar spell, that it wasn't just sympathetic magic, but I was invoking the spirit of sugar, for eg.

Or do you just mean "anyone who gets deep enough into occult practice ends up working with spirits", the way I have more recently

 

[Xenophon]

So until relatively recently, I was not operating on the spirit model. But I've used sigils and things like jar spells, witchcraft-style, magic with success for a long time. I turned to spirit/deity work out of a desire to engage more deeply with the world, not because the results weren't there

Do you reckon I WAS working with spirits, but didn't realise it? Like with a jar spell, that it wasn't just sympathetic magic, but I was invoking the spirit of sugar, for eg.

Or do you just mean "anyone who gets deep enough into occult practice ends up working with spirits", the way I have more recently

There is an O9A article that goes into the issue of whether one is dealing with spirits, powers, both, neither in some depth. I'm drawing a blank on the title at the moment. I recall this forum's Robert Ramsay having aught to say on the topic. Maybe he'll jump in. Julius Evola suggests that what gets called gods and spirits were originally experienced simply as powers. He seems to prefer this uralt way of looking at things. Myself, I've being moving away from reifying power as spirits. The game of who's who on the astral plane seemed to distract from business at hand.

 

[pixel_fortune]

There is an O9A article that goes into the issue of whether one is dealing with spirits, powers, both, neither in some depth. I'm drawing a blank on the title at the moment. I recall this forum's Robert Ramsay having aught to say on the topic. Maybe he'll jump in. Julius Evola suggests that what gets called gods and spirits were originally experienced simply as powers. He seems to prefer this uralt way of looking at things. Myself, I've being moving away from reifying power as spirits. The game of who's who on the astral plane seemed to distract from business at hand.

I'm interested in exploring the idea/worldview rather than genuinely needing to know what I was working with - it's philosophical curiosity, not personal

Tiana said "everyone is dealing with spirits" so I took it to mean that in her worldview, my apparently spirit-less magic did actually involve spirits, so I'd like to hear about that perspective, (rather than having a personal identification problem that needs solving)

From what I've seen, Robert doesn't operate on the spirit model so probably wouldn't be able to speak to it. But I could be wrong

 

[Xenophon]

I'm interested in exploring the idea/worldview rather than genuinely needing to know what I was working with - it's philosophical curiosity, not personal

Tiana said "everyone is dealing with spirits" so I took it to mean that in her worldview, my apparently spirit-less magic did actually involve spirits, so I'd like to hear about that perspective, (rather than having a personal identification problem that needs solving)

From what I've seen, Robert doesn't operate on the spirit model so probably wouldn't be able to speak to it. But I could be wrong

That's why I mentioned Robert. He---like that O9A article---showed "identity" is a slippery notion.

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2024

That's why I mentioned Robert. He---like that O9A article---showed "identity" is a slippery notion.

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

Do you reckon I WAS working with spirits, but didn't realise it? Like with a jar spell, that it wasn't just sympathetic magic, but I was invoking the spirit of sugar, for eg.

I don't know what a jar spell is, but whatever magic that is - yes, as I see it you were working with spirits. Not as in "invoking the spirit of sugar" though
When you do magic, you can either try to directly address some entity, or just manifestate your will and someone will hear you.

I suppose this topic actually calls for a longer post with a deeper explanation of my views, but I don't have enough energy for that right now, sorry. Maybe I'll write it someday, but to be short, for now I'd say that my views are close to shamanizm, but are not limited to that.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I don't know what a jar spell is

Oh sorry! It's folk magic, putting a petition with a person's name into a jar alongside relevant materia. So in one case, I'd screwed up at work and hoped not to be fired for it, so it had my boss's name, some job and money related herbs, and covered in sugar to "sweeten" his mood. (Or honey is common.) Then you burn a candle on the lid or bury it or similar. It's basically a vessel for containing power.

There's also negative ones that you'd put vinegar and rusty nails in and things

(I feel like you'll be like "oh yeah, that, I just call it something different")

or just manifestate your will and someone will hear you.

So you would say it's more that a nearby spirit saw the spell actions (the jar etc) and interpreted as a request for help - rather than the spirit being in the materia used.

(Aidan Wachter is big on the latter- for every ingredient, he would say "Creature of sugar, as is your nature, please sweeten NN's mood. Creature of glass, please contain the power of these ingredients and channel them towards x" etc etc)

I suppose this topic actually calls for a longer post with a deeper explanation of my views, but I don't have enough energy for that right now, sorry

I'd be interested to hear it but completely understand re: use of time/energy - just if the mood ever strikes you

 

[Tiana Silvermoon]

I feel like you'll be like "oh yeah, that, I just call it something different"

Not really, didn't hear of that in my area, but sounds very curious, thanks (:

So you would say it's more that a nearby spirit saw the spell actions (the jar etc) and interpreted as a request for help - rather than the spirit being in the materia used.

Basically, yes. When you're doing magic, you're "making ripples" that attract curious spirits, some of them might agree to help. In my opinion it's good to make an offering if the ritual went well as a "thank you" (:

Post automatically merged: Mar 10, 2024

Julius Evola suggests that what gets called gods and spirits were originally experienced simply as powers. He seems to prefer this uralt way of looking at things. Myself, I've being moving away from reifying power as spirits. The game of who's who on the astral plane seemed to distract from business at hand.

I suppose that could be a case of naming, yes. But in my experience powers don't have will, don't expect respect from you and can't get angry with you for not fulfilling your end of a bargain or not showing respect I mentioned. Spirits (or any other entities) do.