Demons

[Fr. Maximagus]

I hope this is useful to you in your own practices.

20th century magic is not traditional magic. People took Crowley heroin-fueled twaddle " the spirits are parts of fthe human brain" and turned it into the "Initiated View " which kept English-speaking magic hostage for almost a century.

What I mean by "externalized practice into consensus reality" -ok.

Traditional magic is "in the world" vs. modern magic which is "in your head"
In my more Vajrayana Buddhist view, this is a false dichotomy. The spirits are just as real as you. From the 10,000 Sephira view, meaning not at all, them or you.

Well the Vodou saying is just part of New World sorcery. My hougan taught me. It's is actually just very practical operating procedure from living magical traditions, like those I am part of.

When you have active spirit allies this is your lived experience. Yeah, sorcery. The allure! heh.

Don't assume they can read your mind, divine your intent, or hear what you say say you clearly. Many of these spirits were never human and their hearing is not so good. Misunderstanding do happen.

I know neo-Wiccans want to glue feathers to their arms and prance around as "The Morrigan" or "Odin"or whatever mythological figure they worship recently, but for sorcery, it's a bad idea to mix too much of your personality and fantasies with "magic". Live a normal life. All of this has to be integrated.

If they somehow manage to get powerful allies - it they make it that far - from a trad sorcery perepctive, it has too much blending with their egos, and whatever comes knocking. If they get to that point. Best to minimize that by keeping these seperate from your head and a keep normal very mundane personality to drive around in externlaized consensus reality "out there".

I hope that helps.

Man your posts feel extremely "airy"...like highly intellectual but extremely hard to grasp...for me at least

I'm neurodivergent so that might play a role or my brain might just be not operating at peak performance lol 10 concussions/TBIs will do that to ya on occasion

 

[MorganBlack]

What did you expect, dude?

This forum is about 99% theoretical, as it has to be.

The real stuff, the actual praxis, is best communicated in person.

I'm just here to encourage people to pick up the grims, stop listening to LARPers herding simps to monetize in their stupid cults, pick up a wand occasionally, and evoke some daimons. That's about it.

 

[FireBorn]

To me they are divine intelligences. Not evil, just amoral.

Of all the great points, thoughts, theories offered here, one thing stands true for me, when in the presence of a spirit like that, all the philosophy and historical stuff melts. Just me and a presence so old, so powerful, my body feels the presence somatically. Doesn't give a crap about candles, Latin, process, or my feelings. All that remains is the true me, not ego, not knowledge. Just the real shit. Do I stand, or do I fold? Do I fight my nervous system that is screaming run away? Do I stay sovereign, or do I worship, or banish?

Those choices matter a million times more than historicity or philosophy, or what a grimoire says.

What are they exactly? If you had THE answer, would it change you? Would it change your practice? Would it change you?

What do you need them to be? They will meet you there. In my opinion, the rest doesnt matter.

Just my take. I'm totally fine with it being wrong, or just not popular.

 

[MorganBlack]

Good to see you here, FireBorn.

And agreed there! That is a huge topic, ya'll and the crux of much of this stuff.

Fr. Maximagus. Oh, If you need something more practical as entry point , a while back I posted this approach to the daimons of the Grimorium Verum using more simple Conjure style "spells" . It is not the only entry point into the GV, there are number of them, but once you read, then apply, and experiment.

From a quick search just now I see some people are doing what I hoped, and are running with it. Mission accomplished. The demons are satisfied... for now (kidding, kidding)

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...

wizardforums.com

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

What did you expect, dude?

This forum is about 99% theoretical, as it has to be.

The real stuff, the actual praxis, is best communicated in person.

I'm just here to encourage people to pick up the grims, stop listening to LARPers herding simps to monetize in their stupid cults, pick up a wand occasionally, and evoke some daimons. That's about it.

I mean I can understand most of the theory on here I'm not dumb but there's a few here like you and kepler who I try to understand but repeatedly fall short lol

That's not a dig btw, if anything I'm pointing out my own intellectual shortcomings lol

Post automatically merged: Oct 12, 2025

Good to see you here, FireBorn.

And agreed there! That is a huge topic, ya'll and the crux of much of this stuff.

Fr. Maximagus. Oh, If you need something more practical as entry point , a while back I posted this approach to the daimons of the Grimorium Verum using more simple Conjure style "spells" . It is not the only entry point into the GV, there are number of them, but once you read, then apply, and experiment.

From a quick search just now I see some people are doing what I hoped, and are running with it. Mission accomplished. The demons are satisfied... for now (kidding, kidding)

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

I'm glad people are interested in the Grimorium Verum again. I was not aware it was on anyone's radar much. I hope this unedited Yahoo Groups post from Conjureman Ali (albertgreat27 ) from 2011 will be useful to those starting to explore the Verum “system” as JSK would sometimes phrase it...

wizardforums.com

Thanks man I'll definitely check it out!

 

[MorganBlack]

Few can get specific about their own practice here.

If somehow it veers into practical discussions the thread will often get mobbed with grifers who want to "debate you" unless you by pay lip service to their highly specific and preferred 5-minute old "tradition".

You have a digital Library of Alexandria here at your disposal. Go digging.

The history, theory and practice here is more than enough to get you started.

The real secrets will communicated to you by the spirits you evoke.

 

[Sabbatius]

Interesting observation, since all of them include the word "daimon." It’s very similar to the distinction made in Catholic doctrine, which separates angels from fallen angels (the popular demons), but both kinds are still angels — just as in ancient Greece, they were all daimons.

Daimon δαίμων literally translates to "god, power, spirit, fate" which is virtually an incorporeal entity, or basically a spirit.

Sabbatius, let me add in here a rider that the term 'Kakodaimon' does not apply to the daimons of the grims. They are not "demons" as most people think of what that means, but they can be.

The only definition of a Daimon that would come near to a Grim would be a Fate of some sort, whereas many Grim by association could be likened to a ψυχοπομπός, or Psychopomp.

 

[MorganBlack]

whereas many Grim by association could be likened to a ψυχοπομπός, or Psychopomp.

Brilliant! I had not made that connection, Sabbaticus!!

Okay, okay!

The pact-based grims, like GV, are exceedingly chthonic in ritual structure and effect. The ritual effects are different than when using the Lesser Key... darker, more solid, and spooky, in all the best ways.

The chthonic grims are just a way, not The Way. There are magicians I have total and complete respect for who hate the GV.

I am very reticent to write on public forums about the more extreme theophanic manifestations using the GV, which are much more like being abducted by aliens than visionary mystical practices up or down a Tree. Newbies usually mistake the map for the territory.

I own a 3D animation company, and never plan to make money by dangling super-secrect decoder ring "intitaited prastices" * snort* to newcomers. . If I did then shortly, in Two Seasons of Stupid , new online simp-herders would appear talking ALL ABOUT how to be "abuducted by demons "in excrutiating details they cribbed but have no experience in, aside from tripping balls on fermented shark meat.

OK, JSK said he "does not do angels."

Well, I do not do aliens. However , while the The Phenomena may not exactly repeat, it certainly rhymes.

In his 1987 book Communion, Whitley Strieber was swamped with letters from readers about their encounters with "the Visitors" - and becasue of watching far too much Sci-Fi TV and mvoies, I think, they presumed these were extraterrestrial abductors.

In my view, being scintific materialsts, as we all are taught, TV and movies was one of the the only mythic space in 1950's - 1980's American psyche where the daimons could appear / form for them.

So, after reading thousands of letters and collating en enourmous number of correlations Anne Strieber,,Whitley’s wife, made a note at the top of a yellowed sheet of observations:

“This has something to do with what we call death, " she wrote.

One paranoraml writer who made this conenction wrote:

"Why would dead loved ones appear in alien abductions?
Why does western European faerie lore— describing those short, subterranean spirits fond of kidnapping children —so inextricably associate them with the dead?
Why do certain anomalous animals (i.e. cryptids) presage death?"

As goetic magicans we have all these facianting interconnected supernatural events, and they have a chthonic poetry to them that appears, from my long ritual engament with them, to be a feature, and not a bug.

You come to demons for the sorcery, but stay for the spiritual elevation you are surpised to find.

 

[Faria]

In his 1987 book Communion, Whitley Strieber was swamped with letters from readers about their encounters with "the Visitors" - and becasue of watching far too much Sci-Fi TV and mvoies, I think, they presumed these were extraterrestrial abductors.

I have not read his books, but many people have informed me that prior to Communion, Streiber was conjuring from the Goetia. I'm fairly certain he wasn't doing the full gig, but... probably not much different from what we usually see here in terms of practical components. Polish up those blasting rod end caps, avoid the anal probe.

 

[MorganBlack]

Bwhahhaa!!!

Black-handled knife folks, if doing the chthonic grims. Where we're going, not everything is nice out there. Diff ride.

Neat! I read somewhere the famous sci-fi editor Albert K. Bender ,in 1953, was visited by, and who then later popularized the "Men in Black". He met them after performing a "magic ritual." I don't have details but supposedly they gave him a "talisman" to call them again. I'm like, that tracks.

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2025

Oh. For more info on our knife, and to make is more practical for folks , see:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Post automatically merged: Oct 13, 2025

Oh. One last thing.

File under, Why Even Bother.

Abductees will often come back with siddhis (powers), that tracks too. Not going to talk the ones I was given. That would seem crazy and I have no interest in starting yet another pop-magic cult or "LHP" demonic religion

There is no linear deterministic method to just order up a Underworld Initiation, like you're at Demonic Denny's .

And I'm not sure most people would want to.

Check your Saturn placement. Seriously. Goetia is Saturn and Mars heavy, with Moon as the Mistress over all . What is medicine for me could very well be poison for you.

 

[Evara]

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

To mean demons are veil predators. The Greek daimon's are something completely different.
The only similarity is the name. Daimons are closer to spirit guides or ancestral spirits.

But the ones that carry a devouring archetype, one that consumes and does not give back; I call them a demon or a devourer.
Usually if I probe their soul I can feel black sticky tar in them. My clairtangency is highly attuned for hunting demons.

They come in different shapes and sizes, all of them dependent on the culture of the local veil.
Most don't have myth's of their own, so they wear what others project onto them so that they can have some soul scaffolding.
Usually devourer class entities are trying to build their soul structure by devouring other souls in the veil or be eating pieces of soul from the living.

They can get quite good at extracting from others. They can impersonate entities and that includes false light.
If they are accepted as a certain entity and allowed to feed to build their souls, they will more thoroughly be able to wear that identity and then wield it to extract from more souls.

Personally... I would identify as a demon hunter. I can kill just about any of them in the veil and have killed over a thousand in this incarnation.
I enjoy the hunt, veil combat is a thrill and love having an excuse to use black magic.

ps I don't just rip the souls of everything that I find apart at first. If I'm unsure, I imprison their souls and run a few tests.
One of which is forcing them to hold a divine current in their souls. If they start to cook and do not resonate at all...
I overload their souls until they turn to ash.

 

[barbhack80]

Demons certainly exist. The mainstream religions say they are harmful, but do we believe the mainstream religions which go to such great lengths to condemn demonology? Could all that not just be propaganda?

 

[Morell]

Demons certainly exist. The mainstream religions say they are harmful, but do we believe the mainstream religions which go to such great lengths to condemn demonology? Could all that not just be propaganda?

It is a means to an end. Though I think that many people in these religions do not realize what they are actually doing to themselves and the world in this matter.

 

[barbhack80]

It is a means to an end. Though I think that many people in these religions do not realize what they are actually doing to themselves and the world in this matter.

You are very wise. I've always distrusted the mainstream religions after being brought up by fundamentalist parents who were more interested in punishment than gods love.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yep yep, to call the daimons of the grims "demons" is a misnomer. They can be demonic, if you make them that way

In Vodou the words for a "demon" as regular folks think of what that means is "diab", which is better translated as "devil" These are wild spirits, and not "in the house" Even the extremely hot Petwo spirits (the left-handed lwa) are part of part of the family. King Lucifer is a lwa in some Vodou houses., I hear. (Although I have not met him in that ritual context myself.)

There are trad sorcery techniques to rile them up and to get 'hot' manifestations, to make them work fast, but also with an added level of chaos and danger. But unless you are spiritually attacking an enemy with hardened protections, I usually don't see the the point. What's the rush? And if you need them to work super fast , why is your life so fucked you need a quick fix? Emergencies do happen, but if one can, slow down and deal with cooler manifestations, it makes things much easier.

 

[barbhack80]

Yep yep, to call the daimons of the grims "demons" is a misnomer. They can be demonic, if you make them that way

In Vodou the words for a "demon" as regular folks think of what that means is "diab", which is better translated as "devil" These are wild spirits, and not "in the house" Even the extremely hot Petwo spirits (the left-handed lwa) are part of part of the family. King Lucifer is a lwa in some Vodou houses., I hear. (Although I have not met him in that ritual context myself.)

There are trad sorcery techniques to rile them up and to get 'hot' manifestations, to make them work fast, but also with an added level of chaos and danger. But unless you are spiritually attacking an enemy with hardened protections, I usually don't see the the point. What's the rush? And if you need them to work super fast , why is your life so fucked you need a quick fix? Emergencies do happen, but if one can, slow down and deal with cooler manifestations, it makes things much easier.

Demons having far more intelligence than us will know when support is justified and when it isnt.

 

[barbhack80]

'evil' is a concept defined by perspective. its possible to take lives to save lives in a war situation against a bad repressive government. is that evil?

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

'evil' is a concept defined by perspective. its possible to take lives to save lives in a war situation against a bad repressive government. is that evil?

of course evil is subjective. “Harm“ is much more objective. But as you pointed out, sometimes its necessary to harm others to protect others or yourself. which isnt evil at all but rather a divine right (self defense)

 

[barbhack80]

absolutely agree. what mother wouldn't slay anyone who tried to harm her child? sometimes the violent instinct that lies within all of us has the grounds and justification to manifest given the circumstances.

 

[MorganBlack]

'evil' is a concept defined by perspective.

Agreed. I don't believe in any absolute "evil" -and apply it only in relative concept. The tiger that eats your face is not "evil", it's just being a tiger.

On a human level I tend define "evil" - as initiating unnecessary violence.

Being a magician and former creative-industry corporate ronin , spiritual warfare and violence was a large part of my stock and trade. But in In New World sorcery traidions the action must be justified not to incure spritual unbalance. There are rules. We are not savages.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:35 PM

Grr. Ran out of time to write more... starting over....
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Agreed.

I don't believe in any absolute "evil" either - no need to mythologize it, and I to use it only in a relative concept. The tiger that eats your face is not "evil"; it's just being a tiger.

On a human level, I tend to define "evil" as initiating unnecessary violence.

Being a magician and former creative-industry corporate ronin, spiritual warfare and violence were a huge part of my service magician stock and trade. In New World sorcery traditions: the action must be justified not to incur spiritual imbalance. There are rules. We are not savages.

I don't think I'm revealing any secrets here, but... Vodou does not place the "hot" Petro spirits in the center of the house. They are there, but off to the side. The gun is not put on the family dinner table. The more sorcery-focused and heavily Goetic Makaya tradition is more aggressive, by default. But they are sometimes called into Vodou rites to heat things up.

Re: demon intelligence.

As basically a very sorcerous Neoplatonist, I also agree demons at their highest level are very divine expressions, but we all have many selves and manifestations. In more malefic sorcery, we are working with them in an extremely chthonic mode where they are thought-beings who are "brought down" out of the mental plane into the sublunar "astral-etheric" world—a world of made of the messy astral flux of emotions - using various techniques to get their very specific low-level manifestations , often for the purposes of spiritual warfare.