[Opinion] Does placebo/nocebo have a place in magick?

[Ancient]

Why assume "this is how magic works" instead of assuming "this is the only way we know how to do magic today because a lot of knowledge was lost to history, and we don't know how to do it properly anymore".
Either way this is all just speculation, I'm going to have to prove or disprove all of this to myself anyways, so it doesn't really matter.

Are you really still stuck on this? You seem to have convinced yourself that magic is simultaneously infallible and impossible, and by the logic you have presented repeatedly there is not a single successful magician on this website, merely a community of people who have led themselves into delusion. I'm all for applied skepticism and reality checks to discourage delusion, but I think it's also possible to create a placebo effect that completely negates the experience of magic. At some point you've gotta get your hands dirty and take a risk - this is a fact of life, whether it is a magickal or mundane one. If you're not able or willing to have the mental dexterity to attempt some willful suspension of disbelief then I really want to ask: why are you here? Have you learned anything from us, or is this just a place you come to feel superior?

 

[Elementriloquist]

You seem to have convinced yourself that magic is simultaneously infallible and impossible

I don't know where you get that, if anything my position has always been that the things that people claim are impossible are actually possible. It's actually other people imposing limitations on what magic can do.

If you're not able or willing to have the mental dexterity to attempt some willful suspension of disbelief

I don't think magic requires this. Something is either plausible to you or implausible, forcing belief doesn't make sense to me, and I see it as skipping steps in a natural process. The entire point of all of the systems of training is to work your way up towards being capable of more and more unbelievable things.

Take the 8 limbs of yoga for example, Dharana (concentrating on a single thought) comes before Dhyana (emptying your mind of all thoughts). Maintaining Dhyana for 10 minutes would feel impossible to anyone who tries it for the first time without any prior knowledge, but had they mastered Dharana before they attempted it, they'd not only have a good foundation to progress to that next step, but they'd already have overcome a similar feat that once felt impossible too, which would remove doubt/disbelief from their mind that the next step is impossible.

Where you see an opportunity for suspending disbelief, I see a gap in the "natural progression" of achievements that should have been filled through some training or application of magic.

I don't think doubt/disbelief is a bad thing even when it comes to the occult. I think it's your mind telling you that you are skipping steps, and there's some prerequisite knowledge and/or experience that you are missing which would have removed all of the doubt/disbelief to begin with.

Disbelif exists to be disproven (or accepted if it's actually valid).

or is this just a place you come to feel superior?

If I was in a superior position or felt superior, I would never have created an account to begin with. I am at ground zero.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Let's get back on track here...
Placebo vs noncebo.
Let's begin with a couple experiences of mine.
Example 1: tried evoking Lucifer one night in my qlippothic days. Nothing appeared to have occurred, so snuffed the candle and incense and laid down on my bed.
A minute later I was pulled halfway down my bed. This is not a placebo effect. This was not delusion, and I wasn't sleeping on an incline. This was not even in sleep mode, just closed my eyes after lying down.
Example 2: I'm following instructions in Koetting OAA, and I'm at work that overlooks university buildings and a street corner thats moderately busy with students. Little to no traffic and im checking out a few girls waiting to cross.
All 9f a sudden I noticed the faces. They're a blur, and it wasn't my eyes, i could see everything else fine and I was seeing them a moment before.
I think there 8s a placebo possibility, a plausible case of mental health issues, yet these occurred.
Never invoke what you cannot banish.

Post automatically merged: Nov 23, 2023

@Vandheer ... What's your opinion on these examples?

 

[Ziran]

IDK, but when I read this part, it kinda seemed like you were saying the "cake" can ONLY be general and it can't be particular, but maybe I just didn't read it properly.

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Why assume "this is how magic works" instead of assuming "this is the only way we know how to do magic today because a lot of knowledge was lost to history, and we don't know how to do it properly anymore".

I didn't claim this is how magic works, but, I did say that if there is a type of magic which is like a recipe. That sort of magic when it works, is not going to produce a specific result which is measurable, and repeatable like science. Then I typed several paragraphs where I tried to describe what I meant by "recipe". I explained the underlying principle which produces the effect. I explained why specific repeatable results would not be expected from this principle. Finally at the end, I was careful to note that this sort of magic is distinguished from working with angels, demons, and spirits.

I don't know where you get that, if anything my position has always been that the things that people claim are impossible are actually possible.

It seems that way because of the choices being made on whom is a credible source for information. It seems as if you have an impossibly high standard for credibility among practioners, but, an absolute faith in the credibility of books that you have read about magic. If the same standards are not being applied for the books you're reading to the practioners you're interacting with, then it will seem "You have convinced yourself that magic is simultaneously infallible and impossible."

If you are reading a book which promises particular repeatable results via a magical recipe, it doesn't make sense to assume that the book is literally true without evidence if the practioner is assumed to be literally false without evidence.

If I read a book where there is a spell for invisibility while being pursued which involves a recipe of an incantation and removing the left shoe and throwing it over the back. I'm not going to believe that the author knows what they're talking about. At least when it comes to spell casting. Maybe that part was added by another author, maybe it was embellished, maybe it's incomplete, maybe it's a snare for the unintiated. I don't know. All I know is, if you or I say those words and fling our shoe over our backs, we're not going to literally become invisible while we're being pursued. Maybe-maybe something else will happen which mimics a sort of misdirection of the hunters in pursuit, but, I don't think anyone is going to expect literal invisibility.

One of the benefits of having a foundational understanding of the principles of magic is being able to read a book and filter it for what is literal, what is figruative, what is exaggerated, and what is false. Lacking that, imo, reading books on practical magic which are written like recipes are a fool's errand.

 

[Vandheer]

@Vandheer ... What's your opinion on these examples?

I haven't seen this for whatever reason.

Example 1 is definitely not placebo. Damn thats one creepy experience my guy.

Example 2 could be anything, I don't think I can put my finger on a certain button in this one.

 

[Keldan]

I wouldn’t say the placebo or nocebo effect is a vital part of magick, but it has a place in magick.

For example, someone might find a random ritual online, follow the steps, and start “feeling the effects” even if the ritual itself isn’t legitimate. If they desperately believe in the outcome, that belief alone can make the experience feel “real,” and placebo will kick in regardless.

Same idea with online psychics, the not genuine ones. Someone goes to a random psychic for help, gets told they’re cured of their illness. You'll feel the placebo effect as if you feel better, because that's being expected when someone treats you for your illness. Even if that particular psychic is a big charlatan who thrives on these cases out of manipulation.

Because of that, I don’t think it’s always worth trying to debunk these situations. People often trust the placebo effects they’re feeling more than what anyone tells them. Sometimes the best approach is to let people stay in their bubble with their placebo effects. And one shouldn’t prove anything either. Just live magick and experience magick.

 

[Firetree]

To me ... who cares ? Maybe if one is interested in the veracity of magical ritual / theory . Not me , I am more interested in the results .
If its 'placebo ' ... < shrug >

A lot of magick probably is ... if one considers it a way to communicate to the unconscious via symbolism and stimulate change .

I wrote this before ; how to tell ? We cant run time backwards and NOT do the ritual and see those results and compare it to when we do the ritual . The only 'undeniable proof' I got was in the results ... I got them . Exactly how I got them ..... I dont care ,,,, I goit 'em though

Let's say you do a ritual to get $1000 . Would you rather just have the $1000 or know if a ritual could cause you to get it ?

 

[AlfrunGrima]

This book covers some interesting things about the placebo/nocebo, written by parapsychologist Dean Radin. (I don't know the exact pages) In some of his research he covers also the belief factor in the sheep-goat divisions. I think the human mind is 'mind-blowing' and humanity is just at the beginning of discovering it. A lot of things that are now quite normal, were there in stories and imagination before they were invented in reality. Imagination comes first and says us that it is possible. The evidence will come over the next few centuries. Imagination is a kind of testdriver of the future in a lot of things.

So, if one believes it works, conscious or subconscious, and the imagination is able to testdrive a future that make things better, the future will be changed.

Why do I say conscious or subconscious? It is still not clear which role the subconscious plays and regarding to placebo there are outside the world of magicians a lot of people who are not making things really conscious like we do. I have see a beautiful example of medical placebo IRL: someone that didn't belief that the injection would help and could not imagine a good outcome. The injection didn't make things better and he was placed on a waiting list with a length over half a year. That ruled out the buildup effect of having 2 injections. In the meantime people around him who had the same injection start to talk how they got so much better after 3 weeks. Guess what? The second injection worked exactly after 3 weeks...... Interesting to see that the belief factor did not come from a doctor but from people around him.

That brings me to another thing: some people when they start with doing magic, they doing better when they're in a group of people. The believe factor can be a part of it. To see and to hear from others that it is possible to have succes with magic, builds up believe. Seeing people testing operations sparks imagination also. Some people need the 'peer to cheer' for their believe.

@MorganBlack Dean Radin drives the same parallels between NT, magic and imagination like you do. It is not often that authors drive those parallels in the way you do.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Imagination is a kind of testdriver of the future in a lot of things.

IMO, It is exactly this ability to construct alternative outcomes that is at the root of magical abilities.

Why do I say conscious or subconscious? It is still not clear which role the subconscious plays

After reading "The Master and his Emissary", I became more and more convinced that a lot of what we refer to as the subconscious is actually the right hemisphere of the brain.

I have see a beautiful example of medical placebo IRL: someone that didn't belief that the injection would help and could not imagine a good outcome. The injection didn't make things better and he was placed on a waiting list with a length over half a year. That ruled out the buildup effect of having 2 injections. In the meantime people around him who had the same injection start to talk how they got so much better after 3 weeks. Guess what? The second injection worked exactly after 3 weeks...... Interesting to see that the belief factor did not come from a doctor but from people around him.

That is indeed an excellent example! It doesn't matter where the belief comes from; if you have it, you have it.

That brings me to another thing: some people when they start with doing magic, they doing better when they're in a group of people. The believe factor can be a part of it. To see and to hear from others that it is possible to have succes with magic, builds up believe. Seeing people testing operations sparks imagination also. Some people need the 'peer to cheer' for their believe.

This is the way you beat the 'experimenter effect' - the more people you have on the same magical 'page', the more chance of success. Think of it as a tug-of-war. The more people you have on your (magical) side of the rope, the easier it is to win