GOBEKLI TEPE

[Xenophon]

Has anyone else gotten into the digs at Gobekli Tepe (and nearby Karahan Tepe) in Turkey? They feature impressive stone temples dating back to at latest c. 10,000 B.C.E. Which means folks were building in stone before agriculture had begun. Logistics aside, they felt the NEED to build such edifices before life enjoyed the (relative) security of regular crops. Which goes some ways to driving a stake through that spectre that haunts the world, "economic man." As Evola hinted, before men were merchants, they were magi.

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[Roma]

Which means folks were building in stone before agriculture had begun

Modern history is not very good at dating.

Look at the top levels of the Great Pyramid of Giza. Observe horizontal erosion - in the middle of the inward curved sides rather than at the corners where sand erosion would occur

Has the Great Pyramid been largely underwater for centuries? When might that have been?

Other ancient structures have related water erosion

 

[I_Veritas]

Has anyone else gotten into the digs at Gobekli Tepe (and nearby Karahan Tepe) in Turkey? They feature impressive stone temples dating back to at latest c. 10,000 B.C.E. Which means folks were building in stone before agriculture had begun. Logistics aside, they felt the NEED to build such edifices before life enjoyed the (relative) security of regular crops. Which goes some ways to driving a stake through that spectre that haunts the world, "economic man." As Evola hinted, before men were merchants, they were magi.

Link:

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(link works, no virun warning)

If by gotten into, you mean taken an interest, and not, physically been there, then yes. I am quite enthralled by Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, and the other related sites in Turkey. Every time I hear about conflict in the region I hope that these sites are not damaged by our ultimately fleeting human whims.

I like your supposition that men were magi before they were merchants. I think that's a good way of phrasing the situation. Looking at these ancient sites and learning about what we know of neolithic and paleolithic peoples really makes me think that humanity has lost something with the rise of 'civilization'. I suspect we have gained things from this foray, but if we want to survive, as the human species, I think we must look at these old ways and start thinking about how we can return to living in harmony with our planet, rather than ravaging it.

 

[Xenophon]

If by gotten into, you mean taken an interest, and not, physically been there, then yes. I am quite enthralled by Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, and the other related sites in Turkey. Every time I hear about conflict in the region I hope that these sites are not damaged by our ultimately fleeting human whims.

I like your supposition that men were magi before they were merchants. I think that's a good way of phrasing the situation. Looking at these ancient sites and learning about what we know of neolithic and paleolithic peoples really makes me think that humanity has lost something with the rise of 'civilization'. I suspect we have gained things from this foray, but if we want to survive, as the human species, I think we must look at these old ways and start thinking about how we can return to living in harmony with our planet, rather than ravaging it.

It is probably too late to start thinking about anything. One can only hope that coming disaster proves salutary to whomever few are left.

 

[I_Veritas]

I don't think its ever too late to start thinking about something. Although, I understand where you are coming from. There is certainly an ecological and social disaster coming, and I suspect there is little we can do to stop its momentum. But there is always the after.

 

[Roma]

There is quite a good Turkish TV series based on Gobekli Tepe

There are subtitled versions online using various trackers

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[Xenophon]

I don't think its ever too late to start thinking about something. Although, I understand where you are coming from. There is certainly an ecological and social disaster coming, and I suspect there is little we can do to stop its momentum. But there is always the after.

One loses here to win there, as a certain wise Chilean wrote.

 

[initmul]

I did Göbekli Tepe at uni and have a special interest in the Epipaleolithic and Neolithic of SW-Asia. If there are any questions, ask away.

By the way, that people were building in stone before the advent of agriculture has never been in doubt. There's lots of structures made of stone before Göbekli Tepe. What made the finds special is that it is not a settlement, but was purely a cultic site which was built by different groups of hunter-gatherers, showing that cooperation and the will to create large scale projects were a thing back then already. It was probably used for funeral rites, and certainly for feasting. I like to explain it as the "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll"-site where the people living in the vague area could gather to celebrate on special occasions.

I don't really watch videos on the subject because they usually get me into a state of irritation/bafflement (depending on how much stupidity is at work), but recently made an exception for this:

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And yeah, "economic man" is an invention of economists (which are no better than theologians imo). Nobody who works with this stuff believes in that particular myth.

Modern history is not very good at dating.

Look at the top levels of the Great Pyramid of Giza. Observe horizontal erosion - in the middle of the inward curved sides rather than at the corners where sand erosion would occur

Has the Great Pyramid been largely underwater for centuries? When might that have been?

Other ancient structures have related water erosion

I beg to differ, we're quite good at dating. We're also quite good at determining what happened to stuff and can tell water damage from wind erosion or from damage caused by people breaking off the fancy rocks for building material.

I would heartily recommend you to check out the channel World of Antiquity at

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. Dr. Miano is a great guy who discusses things like the pyramids (and many other ancient things) with an eye towards people who believe that historians are neither good at dating nor at doing archaeology and history.

 

[Xenophon]

I did Göbekli Tepe at uni and have a special interest in the Epipaleolithic and Neolithic of SW-Asia. If there are any questions, ask away.

By the way, that people were building in stone before the advent of agriculture has never been in doubt. There's lots of structures made of stone before Göbekli Tepe. What made the finds special is that it is not a settlement, but was purely a cultic site which was built by different groups of hunter-gatherers, showing that cooperation and the will to create large scale projects were a thing back then already. It was probably used for funeral rites, and certainly for feasting. I like to explain it as the "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll"-site where the people living in the vague area could gather to celebrate on special occasions.

I don't really watch videos on the subject because they usually get me into a state of irritation/bafflement (depending on how much stupidity is at work), but recently made an exception for this:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And yeah, "economic man" is an invention of economists (which are no better than theologians imo). Nobody who works with this stuff believes in that particular myth.


I beg to differ, we're quite good at dating. We're also quite good at determining what happened to stuff and can tell water damage from wind erosion or from damage caused by people breaking off the fancy rocks for building material.

I would heartily recommend you to check out the channel World of Antiquity at

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

. Dr. Miano is a great guy who discusses things like the pyramids (and many other ancient things) with an eye towards people who believe that historians are neither good at dating nor at doing archaeology and history.

OK, I misstated the point. The striking thing was not building material per se. It was the scale of the undertaking. I mean, yeah. Folks have piled stones for shelter even before there were homo sapiens, I reckon.

"Nobody who works with this stuff believes the myth of economic man"? Maybe, but my concern is that too many other folks swallow it without chewing. It's part of our intellectual bedrock: mental substrata drummed in for so long it does not get questioned, much less rejected. It were well that evidence undercutting the article of faith were undercut.

 

[initmul]

Yeah, that's sadly very true. But what would be a way to get that shit out of people's heads?

 

[Xenophon]

Yeah, that's sadly very true. But what would be a way to get that shit out of people's heads?

That used to be why people read books and sought learning. Look at the number of things one is not allowed to question in the EU for instance. Or the American's authorities' compulsion to stomp out "fake news" (as divined by their own jerking knees.) Clearly there are those who fear the effect of simple information.

On the other hand, I fear Aleksandr Dugin spoke true. The Internet, which contains a pretty huge slice of human learning, is used by us to make ourselves even more stupid.

 

[initmul]

Books and learning seem to have gone out of fashion, though. Look at the education systems in Europe or the US (not familiar with others) - tests are made easier all the time to get more students to pass with good grades, whether in elementary school or at university. It's a niveau limbo. In my country 17% of those who finish school cannot read or write. Since Bologna universities are just schools for adults, nothing left of "learning to think critically". Media literacy is ridiculous, people just uncritically accept anything. Like cows chewing the cud. Terry Pratchett once wrote something along the lines of "politicians and people in power don't like it when people begin to ask questions, so they make sure that there are no brains able to formulate thoughts above a certain level" (badly paraphrased).

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And definitely agree on the internet thing. Ironic, in a way - when it started we were all "knowledge available for everyone!", and now there's social media.

 

[Roma]

"knowledge available for everyone!"

In my youth I studied the philosophy of science.

Knowledge is a reification - the state of knowing (by a human in a context) is turned into an object with no context.

When copper (pyrotenax) was work hardened, I just changed my consciousness and it behaved properly.

Similarly Truth is a reification. Never mind true to what/whom/where. Truth is an object that is universal.

While gravity is more or less true in this solar system, how do we know it is true in all galaxies?

 

[Xenophon]

Books and learning seem to have gone out of fashion, though. Look at the education systems in Europe or the US (not familiar with others) - tests are made easier all the time to get more students to pass with good grades, whether in elementary school or at university. It's a niveau limbo. In my country 17% of those who finish school cannot read or write. Since Bologna universities are just schools for adults, nothing left of "learning to think critically". Media literacy is ridiculous, people just uncritically accept anything. Like cows chewing the cud. Terry Pratchett once wrote something along the lines of "politicians and people in power don't like it when people begin to ask questions, so they make sure that there are no brains able to formulate thoughts above a certain level" (badly paraphrased).

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And definitely agree on the internet thing. Ironic, in a way - when it started we were all "knowledge available for everyone!", and now there's social media.

I have been a teacher for about a quarter century in a couple of countries. There is as much drag-down as there is uplift to education. A danger hard to ward against.

 

[Vandheer]

Back to the topic, anyone ever read Klaus Schmidts book about Gobeklitepe?

 

[Xenophon]

Back to the topic, anyone ever read Klaus Schmidts book about Gobeklitepe?

No---you? I imagine it's fascinating. I had actually planned on visiting the site till the panicdemic intervened.

 

[Vandheer]

No---you? I imagine it's fascinating. I had actually planned on visiting the site till the panicdemic intervened.

Have read bits and parts of it a while ago. Its fascinating to read about. Always wondered how ritual and magic could be like back then.

You may wanna go into the rabbit hole, Tepe Telegrams is excellent for that.

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I had actually planned on visiting the site till the panicdemic

Yeah its on my bucket list too.

 

[Xenophon]

Have read bits and parts of it a while ago. Its fascinating to read about. Always wondered how ritual and magic could be like back then.

You may wanna go into the rabbit hole, Tepe Telegrams is excellent for that.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Yeah its on my bucket list too.

Work in a jaunt to nearby Karahan Tepe, too. They say at least some of it is even older.

What I find amusing about all this is a National Geographic book I was teaching kids out of back in Covid times. The glossy volume blithely declares that, "All the major details" about the rise of early homo sapiens are determined. (And determined they are: NG ignores most discoveries in the past 20 years and everything coming out of Chinese and Russian researches.)

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Ive not been out of the USA, except to Canada via the tunnel.
It would be marvelous to see however. I love some of the historical sites, though some, like the Great Wall of China, or Mayan/Incan pyramids would be a no-go for me due to my phobia of heights.

 

[Vandheer]

Speaking of South America

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