Has anyone worked with Mark Rasmus or Sixty Skills? A different perspective on Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

[ChaosMarc]

There are a few well know people like Mark Rasmus, Sixty Skills, Martin Faulks, and William Mistelle, and I am sure I forgot a few people that have all claimed to have worked through Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

Most of these people have various training programs or books for sale that give their own perspectives on going through the IIH.
Mark Rasmus has a book called

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and he has a training program that is $30 USD/ Month. You can also train with him in Thailand for $1500 for 10 days, for 4 hours a day. His website is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Has anyone worked through the material either in his book, training programs or in person with him?

From what I can tell from buying and reading the book but not purchasing the training program from Vimeo or his website is that he mixes the order of exercises up so you can figure out what exercises are easier for the individual, and focuses on those exercises to more easily develop the different energetic bodies and through this development make it easier for the individual to work through the exercises in the IIH that would normally slow their development through the system. If this is wrong, I would love to hear from people who have worked through it or are working through it to get their perspectives.

The main concern I have with this is if I am not in person with this teacher and I get too much fire element or akasha energy in my system and I become unbalanced without knowing, that seems like a very unsafe practice. I have direct experience being unbalanced and ignorant and staying unbalanced for months and having very negative side effects from my ignorance. It makes total sense if this teacher working with me is physically watching me and other students and someone invariably makes a mistake without knowing it, the teacher can correct the behavior or imbalance. I recognize that Mark probably has the ability to "visit" each of his students from his online courses and check on their progress periodically and see if they are way off center and be able to "fix" the imbalances from a distance, but that doesn't seem to be written out anywhere that this is part of what the student is paying for.

I think the IIH is a great material as is written but I also think that after 60 years, human nature's ability to innovate can figure out a way to take down the timeline from "between 7 and 30 years" to finish working through the IIH. With the average life expectancy being 72 years, someone spending almost half of that in a training program would severely limit the number of individuals that would be able to go through this training. I know some of you are going to be screaming at me through the screen "The IIH isn't for everyone!" and "This system takes a long time for a reason, the karmic debt is being compressed a lot already, any faster than 7 or 20 or 30 years will be too much!" I get it, you and I have different opinions. Both opinions are valid. It's all good. I am more taking the approach of Rawn Clark: "We need more real humans with human abilities in the world". The more people that can access this system and work through it, the more people will be out there moving through the world with balanced elements, real knowledge of themselves, devoted and looking forward to spreading love. I look forward to that.

That being said, there is also a teacher named Sixty Skills

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that learned from Mark Rasmus and a few other martial artists/ energy workers/ meditators and such, and he seems to have the same or a very similar training program in the form of an app for $5 USD/month. Again, I would love to hear from people that are going through it or have gone through it.

My perspective: I have been working through the IIH in the traditional sense with the help of Rawn Clark's Companions along the way book and next week I will be moving to Step 2. I believe in IIH as a system without any change but I am intrigued by the people that have worked through it and can look at the system from the perspective of a Step 8, 9, 10 Bardonist and may have some improvements.

 

[RabbitPants]

There are a few well know people like Mark Rasmus, Sixty Skills, Martin Faulks, and William Mistelle, and I am sure I forgot a few people that have all claimed to have worked through Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

Most of these people have various training programs or books for sale that give their own perspectives on going through the IIH.
Mark Rasmus has a book called

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and he has a training program that is $30 USD/ Month. You can also train with him in Thailand for $1500 for 10 days, for 4 hours a day. His website is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Has anyone worked through the material either in his book, training programs or in person with him?

From what I can tell from buying and reading the book but not purchasing the training program from Vimeo or his website is that he mixes the order of exercises up so you can figure out what exercises are easier for the individual, and focuses on those exercises to more easily develop the different energetic bodies and through this development make it easier for the individual to work through the exercises in the IIH that would normally slow their development through the system. If this is wrong, I would love to hear from people who have worked through it or are working through it to get their perspectives.

The main concern I have with this is if I am not in person with this teacher and I get too much fire element or akasha energy in my system and I become unbalanced without knowing, that seems like a very unsafe practice. I have direct experience being unbalanced and ignorant and staying unbalanced for months and having very negative side effects from my ignorance. It makes total sense if this teacher working with me is physically watching me and other students and someone invariably makes a mistake without knowing it, the teacher can correct the behavior or imbalance. I recognize that Mark probably has the ability to "visit" each of his students from his online courses and check on their progress periodically and see if they are way off center and be able to "fix" the imbalances from a distance, but that doesn't seem to be written out anywhere that this is part of what the student is paying for.

I think the IIH is a great material as is written but I also think that after 60 years, human nature's ability to innovate can figure out a way to take down the timeline from "between 7 and 30 years" to finish working through the IIH. With the average life expectancy being 72 years, someone spending almost half of that in a training program would severely limit the number of individuals that would be able to go through this training. I know some of you are going to be screaming at me through the screen "The IIH isn't for everyone!" and "This system takes a long time for a reason, the karmic debt is being compressed a lot already, any faster than 7 or 20 or 30 years will be too much!" I get it, you and I have different opinions. Both opinions are valid. It's all good. I am more taking the approach of Rawn Clark: "We need more real humans with human abilities in the world". The more people that can access this system and work through it, the more people will be out there moving through the world with balanced elements, real knowledge of themselves, devoted and looking forward to spreading love. I look forward to that.

That being said, there is also a teacher named Sixty Skills

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that learned from Mark Rasmus and a few other martial artists/ energy workers/ meditators and such, and he seems to have the same or a very similar training program in the form of an app for $5 USD/month. Again, I would love to hear from people that are going through it or have gone through it.

My perspective: I have been working through the IIH in the traditional sense with the help of Rawn Clark's Companions along the way book and next week I will be moving to Step 2. I believe in IIH as a system without any change but I am intrigued by the people that have worked through it and can look at the system from the perspective of a Step 8, 9, 10 Bardonist and may have some improvements.

With regards to Mark Rasmus, I used to learn from him and Jerry Alan Johnson. If you were to ask other orthodox Daoists they would vouch for his "lineage" in Daoism which he mixes with Bardon's work. If you're going down the bullshit routes, which includes Daoist alchemy and Western hermetics, his is probably the best since he mixes them, you'll either learn earlier on that it's bullshit or you'll just stop practicing like most people.

 

[ChaosMarc]

With regards to Mark Rasmus, I used to learn from him and Jerry Alan Johnson. If you were to ask other orthodox Daoists they would vouch for his "lineage" in Daoism which he mixes with Bardon's work. If you're going down the bullshit routes, which includes Daoist alchemy and Western hermetics, his is probably the best since he mixes them, you'll either learn earlier on that it's bullshit or you'll just stop practicing like most people.

Thank you for your perspective. What happened that made you feel like he is teaching bullshit? Is it because he comes at IIH or hermetics from such a different view than Bardon? Or because he mixes the steps up so he takes an unbalanced approach to the IIH? Or is it the physical training that throws it all off? Does it feel like he is a martial artist that is using trigger words from the IIH to bring in more business? If you are willing, I want to hear about your experiences.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

There are a few well know people like Mark Rasmus, Sixty Skills, Martin Faulks, and William Mistelle, and I am sure I forgot a few people that have all claimed to have worked through Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

Most of these people have various training programs or books for sale that give their own perspectives on going through the IIH.
Mark Rasmus has a book called

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and he has a training program that is $30 USD/ Month. You can also train with him in Thailand for $1500 for 10 days, for 4 hours a day. His website is

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Has anyone worked through the material either in his book, training programs or in person with him?

From what I can tell from buying and reading the book but not purchasing the training program from Vimeo or his website is that he mixes the order of exercises up so you can figure out what exercises are easier for the individual, and focuses on those exercises to more easily develop the different energetic bodies and through this development make it easier for the individual to work through the exercises in the IIH that would normally slow their development through the system. If this is wrong, I would love to hear from people who have worked through it or are working through it to get their perspectives.

The main concern I have with this is if I am not in person with this teacher and I get too much fire element or akasha energy in my system and I become unbalanced without knowing, that seems like a very unsafe practice. I have direct experience being unbalanced and ignorant and staying unbalanced for months and having very negative side effects from my ignorance. It makes total sense if this teacher working with me is physically watching me and other students and someone invariably makes a mistake without knowing it, the teacher can correct the behavior or imbalance. I recognize that Mark probably has the ability to "visit" each of his students from his online courses and check on their progress periodically and see if they are way off center and be able to "fix" the imbalances from a distance, but that doesn't seem to be written out anywhere that this is part of what the student is paying for.

I think the IIH is a great material as is written but I also think that after 60 years, human nature's ability to innovate can figure out a way to take down the timeline from "between 7 and 30 years" to finish working through the IIH. With the average life expectancy being 72 years, someone spending almost half of that in a training program would severely limit the number of individuals that would be able to go through this training. I know some of you are going to be screaming at me through the screen "The IIH isn't for everyone!" and "This system takes a long time for a reason, the karmic debt is being compressed a lot already, any faster than 7 or 20 or 30 years will be too much!" I get it, you and I have different opinions. Both opinions are valid. It's all good. I am more taking the approach of Rawn Clark: "We need more real humans with human abilities in the world". The more people that can access this system and work through it, the more people will be out there moving through the world with balanced elements, real knowledge of themselves, devoted and looking forward to spreading love. I look forward to that.

That being said, there is also a teacher named Sixty Skills

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that learned from Mark Rasmus and a few other martial artists/ energy workers/ meditators and such, and he seems to have the same or a very similar training program in the form of an app for $5 USD/month. Again, I would love to hear from people that are going through it or have gone through it.

My perspective: I have been working through the IIH in the traditional sense with the help of Rawn Clark's Companions along the way book and next week I will be moving to Step 2. I believe in IIH as a system without any change but I am intrigued by the people that have worked through it and can look at the system from the perspective of a Step 8, 9, 10 Bardonist and may have some improvements.

The way I am planning to go about IIH is to practice the rituals, and do a black white mirror exercise by taking a book like Self Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition as reference and training.
Take your natal chart. Write down the good bad and ugly. Transform via Hermetic laws from The Kybalion to transform the bad into good. Or by a good qaballistic magic method. Or good old low magic.

 

[ChaosMarc]

The way I am planning to go about IIH is to practice the rituals, and do a black white mirror exercise by taking a book like Self Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition as reference and training.
Take your natal chart. Write down the good bad and ugly. Transform via Hermetic laws from The Kybalion to transform the bad into good. Or by a good qaballistic magic method. Or good old low magic.

Great idea on the natal chart, I hadn't thought of that. The black and white mirror exercise is extremely important and never ending so once I have problems identifying the severe/ often occurring negative character traits in my daily life, then I will use external material and there is even a list of hundreds of character traits that I believe Bardon lists out as possible things to work on but Rawn Clark specifically said to focus on ones you come up with yourself, at least at first. I have a background in Psychology so I have spent a lot of my life figuring out what is wrong with me already . Once I get into Step 6 I definitely see myself making Elementals to work on specific character traits as well. I was under the impression that qaballistic magic was either for higher level mages or best if you are of Jewish heritage, neither of which I identify with just yet. I mean Bardon doesn't even suggest the student use qabala until the 3rd book.

 

[RabbitPants]

Thank you for your perspective. What happened that made you feel like he is teaching bullshit? Is it because he comes at IIH or hermetics from such a different view than Bardon? Or because he mixes the steps up so he takes an unbalanced approach to the IIH? Or is it the physical training that throws it all off? Does it feel like he is a martial artist that is using trigger words from the IIH to bring in more business? If you are willing, I want to hear about your experiences.

It's not that I feel he's teaching bullshit, Mark Rasmus is in all honesty the least full of shit Daoist out there, and trust me I've learned from a lot of them. The reason I say it is bullshit, is because in my experience and research, so both within my personal gnosis and objectively via research, I have concluded that what Westerners consider Hermetics does not accomplish what it is that I want to accomplish, and neither does Neidan inner alchemy.

To elaborate, the Western paradigm itself is based on a false system, the Kabbalah isn't some ancient idea, it's a fairly recent one cobbled together with some surviving ideas, and the Hermetic version of it is used to substitute a pre-Christian spherical system which was used by the pre-Christian Hermeticists. The pre-Christian Hermetic system, fragments of which survived in Sufism since the early Christians chased the Hermeticist into the Near East and North Africa since the early muslims were a lot more open-minded (this is why they like Plato), and in some Roman writings, such as the Dream/Vision of Scipio. There was a similar form of "reconstruction" occurring in the 14th century with regards to a Western Hermetic system, based on more Christian/Judaic principles, as has been occurring in heathen circles. These people did not faithfully reproduce the system as it was, but according to their own beliefs. A simple, yet very complex, example of this is how Marsilio Ficino wrote his "Platonic Theology", explicitly admitting to that he wanted to make it more Christian than the "Platonic Theology" written by the Neoplatonist Proclus.

If you understand, which we can determine from pre-Christian Greek and Roman sources, the spherical system used by the Hermeticists, it was based on the Seven Luminaries, or 7 planets. This stems from the Chaldean astrological idea, spoken of in the Dream/Vision of Scipio, that there are seven stars, and two forms of existence beyond them. When an individual is born into this world, they descend through the planets, and in turn the planets leave their essences in people. For the Chaldeans, according to Roman sources, this is why reincarnation took place, so when an individual dies, not having gotten rid of the planetary essences left in them upon their descent, they were forced to come re-descend. In the same tradition the idea was that in order to escape reincarnation, one hard to perform rituals in order to leave behind the essences the planets had originally left in your spirit, and in doing so ascend and escape reincarnation.

Kabbalah is based on both a misinterpretation of these ideas, since they didn't have the same sources at their disposal back then, as well as a deliberate perversion towards a more Judeo-Christian ideal. The Western Hermeticists are thus, not more legitimate than any form of modern magic, since their own system is based on a misunderstanding of an old one, and yet it is presented as such due to dogma. At the same time, having practiced correctly oriented Hermeticism, even the Hermetic ideal itself, is opposed to the Germanic concept of immortality, as well as the Left-hand path concept of "self-deification". Since what I seek is self-deification or a spiritual individuation, even the true Hermetic tradition (which is steeped in Platonic asceticism and life rejection) which results in assimilation with Platonic One or Jewish God (which I don't believe in) contradicts what I seek to accomplish.

What we call Daoism is similar, more than you would expect. In fact what we call Daoism today, originally came from the Esoteric Buddhist school in China, Chan Buddhism, which was taken to China by Bodhirama. This is why you'll see so many similarities between the energetic practices of the Chan Buddhists and the Daoists, because Daoism comes from Esoteric Buddhism. People misunderstand Buddhism, because they think of it as some peaceful religion, which it generally is, however wherever it goes it destroys the indigenous religion and absorbs it. This is why if you go to Tibet, the Dzogchen Buddhists absorbed elements of the Bon religion, if you go to Japan, the Shingon Buddhists absorbed the mystical Onmyouji elements contained in Shinto. It absorbs ideas, but orients them in a similar fashion as Western Hermeticism and Platonism, towards the process of assimilation with Platonic One.

Now the Doaists, much like the various schools of Yoga, have different schools of thought pertaining to how energy works, but they have their own Dantien system, which like the Chakra system, was created to facilitate the process of spiritual assimilation. So when Daoists talk of "immortals", they actually different levels of immortals, and the highest form of immortal, the "heavenly immortal", isn't really an immortal in what the Western LHP considers to be immortal, but is one who has accomplished assimilation with Dao/Tao and is merely an emanation of Dao/Tao. This may sound familiar to you if you were educated on the works of the Neoplatonist Plotinus, after all, he believes in emanation from One. So Daoism too contradicts my own desire.

Another thing to point out, is that LHP and RHP in the East, even though they inspired the terminology in the West, are actually both RHP from a Western perspective. The Eastern RHP is a slow process, this is the path which through multiple incarnations results in assimilation. The Eastern LHP is an attempt to accomplish the same form of assimilation in a single lifetime, which you can find in the Tantric traditions in Hindu, as well as Esoteric Buddhists schools such as Chan and Shingon Buddhism. When I was getting into Daoism, I was looking to mix it with my Hermetic practices, as Mark Rasmus does, and was mistakenly led to believe that Daoism is LHP, in reality it is what I pointed out before, that what I seek does not exist within the Eastern paradigm. Not in Daoism, not in any form of Yoga, Kundalini doesn't accomplish it, Kunlun (which is a form of banned Daoism in China from the original Heterodox Maoshan tradition) doesn't accomplish it, etc.

So when I say it is bullshit, it is bullshit for me, since I have walked those paths very intently, I was taught by the best of masters, but it was ultimately contradictory to what my spiritual goal is. It is also bullshit in the modern Western "LHP" context, because they adopt the practices of the Western RHP (Christianized Hermetics) and mix them with the practices of the Eastern LHP (equivalent to the Western RHP) and think that it yields a different result and results in spiritual individuation instead of assimilation because they use the Qliphoth instead of Qabalah, and because they don't understand that Eastern schools don't really actually have a LHP from a Western perspective. So it's bullshit in the context of the Western LHP, people trying to accomplish apotheosis/self-deification/spiritual individuation, because they appropriate ideas that don't result in the outcome they desire.

But as stated, if your spiritual ideal is assimilation, I would highly recommend Mark Rasmus, I would also recommend looking into the Daoist Magic manuals of Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson (not his medical stuff), since they elaborate a great deal on the Neidan practices of the multiple schools in which he is ordained a Daoist priest.

 

[RabbitPants]

Great idea on the natal chart, I hadn't thought of that. The black and white mirror exercise is extremely important and never ending so once I have problems identifying the severe/ often occurring negative character traits in my daily life, then I will use external material and there is even a list of hundreds of character traits that I believe Bardon lists out as possible things to work on but Rawn Clark specifically said to focus on ones you come up with yourself, at least at first. I have a background in Psychology so I have spent a lot of my life figuring out what is wrong with me already . Once I get into Step 6 I definitely see myself making Elementals to work on specific character traits as well. I was under the impression that qaballistic magic was either for higher level mages or best if you are of Jewish heritage, neither of which I identify with just yet. I mean Bardon doesn't even suggest the student use qabala until the 3rd book.

Natal charts too stem from the Chaldean astrological tradition, all forms of astrology, Chinese, Western, Vedic, etc, stem from Chaldean Astrology. The way the subsequent traditions utilize and believe in astrology is not the same way it was utilized in Chaldean astrology, specifically pertaining to the natal astrology, the Chaldeans used that to chart you descent through the stars, which came in handy for your desired re-ascent. There wasn't a "one-size-fits-all" spiritual path.

 

[RabbitPants]

Also, since we're on the subject of Bardon, I don't understand the fascination. I'm also aware of an "inner teaching" which included the "finger magic" or runic handseals used by Kummer, an Armanist (mystical German runic tradition) who was also a Volkist and a member of the National Socialist party. Don't believe me?

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"This book is based on the writings of Siegfried Kummer. For the students of Franz Bardon, the publication of this translation will be of great importance and I will explain why.Bardon also maintained his circle of disciples in Prague and one of his students was Ernst Quintscher, the son of Wilhelm Quintscher.It is known that for this circle, Bardon wrote a manual on magical development which was called “The Textbook of High Magic”. This book was a translation and compilation of elements from Georg Lomer’s Seven Hermetic Letters, Crowley’s Liber ABA/Book 4 (Parts I & II on Mysticism and Elementary Magic Theory respectively) and Siegfried Adolf Kummer’s work on Rune Magic. These three books were the basis a system of initiation that Bardon used in his inner circle, which Bardon considered to be too advanced for the public to work through. Unfortunately, there are no complete copy of this document known to exist today.It is known that Bardon had visited Kummer personally in Dresden and that the inner system of Bardon included chapters with Rune Magic and more specifically Runic hand-signs. it is said that the Runes are the keys that give you access to your inner creative powers.Bardon writes the following about hand magic:"There are magicians who are performing rituals unnoticed in the middle of a big crowd by movements of their fingers in the pockets of their coats."Kummer wrote the following about Rune-magic:"It is the great knowledge of cosmic energies, the recognition of hidden energies of nature, of the subtle heavenly, as well as earthly streams, waves, entities, and powers."This book provides valuable information about both the practice and theory of Rune magic."

Ironically, I am an Armanist. I would also advise you to not buy that book, since it is extremely barebones and filled with now disproven claims, which were originally made by none other than Stephen Flowers, the arch liar, but great magician.

 

[ChaosMarc]

It's not that I feel he's teaching bullshit, Mark Rasmus is in all honesty the least full of shit Daoist out there, and trust me I've learned from a lot of them. The reason I say it is bullshit, is because in my experience and research, so both within my personal gnosis and objectively via research, I have concluded that what Westerners consider Hermetics does not accomplish what it is that I want to accomplish, and neither does Neidan inner alchemy.

Thank you for your detailed response, I learned a lot that I didn't know and I have even things to look up.
Thank you for this clarification. I actually had a very similar goal of Apotheosis at the beginning of my magical journey but I have since changed goals. I recognize that the Golden Dawn is not the path for me right now, and that's enough for me to know for now. Maybe I'll look into them once I work through the IIH and have more experienced eyes. As far as Kaballah goes, I don't intend to get into that until Bardon's 3rd book, The Key to the True Qabbalah, unless he brings it up in his 2nd book, The Practice of Magickal Evocation.

Also, since we're on the subject of Bardon, I don't understand the fascination.

For the most part, I don't care where these practices and ideas come from, I care about results. I appreciate the plain speech, the non woo-woo way Bardon approaches and describes going through the IIH, and the mindset he recommends we take to look at the world and our magical works. I want certain magical abilities, and the IIH has a clearly laid out system with steps that build on one another that I have read has worked for others, and many experienced magicians recommend as a training manual. There is very little left open to interpretation, as far as a book focused on developing non-scientific abilities and experiences can be. And I LOVE that there isn't a gatekeeper somewhere that can halt me in Step 2.3 because I unknowingly insulted them 3 months ago because I went right instead of left in the ritual to cure their cat from fleas or some shit. My spiritual and magical development is my responsibility, and from what I have gathered, the IIH allows me to take the reins and work towards being better.

I'm also aware of an "inner teaching" which included the "finger magic" or runic handseals used by Kummer, an Armanist (mystical German runic tradition) who was also a Volkist and a member of the National Socialist party. Don't believe me?

Ironically, I am an Armanist. I would also advise you to not buy that book, since it is extremely barebones and filled with now disproven claims, which were originally made by none other than Stephen Flowers, the arch liar, but great magician.

(The following is from my limited Western-influenced knowledge of Germany around that time and I may be ignorant of some historical specifics in this time frame, like the only thing I know about the Nationalist Socialist Party is they later became Nazis... I think) While I recognize the Nazis were bad, and I don't condone anything they did in the second world war, I also recognize that some people in that area at that time could have been accomplished magicians. I believe with the right book or manual, I can learn the magic they successfully used without becoming a Nazi myself. That being said, that book sounds really interesting so thank you for recommending against it. Also, I'm not going to spend any money to get anything from that Jacob Abramowitz guy until he gets a website that doesn't feel like a cheap Harry Potter knockoff site focused on $$$. Maybe after I complete the IIH I can gleam some knowledge but for now, I have enough on my plate with the IIH. I have tried some mudra techniques in the past and had very little success, but again I consider myself very early on in my magical journey. Have you had a chance to look at Step 4 in the IIH? Bardon mentions some Mudras there but I am a few months off from even attempting those.

 

[Öwnchef]

> Ironically, I am an Armanist

The small German rest of them fled to Norway in the meantime. There is still some activity in Europe but null in Germany. They have to act very careful, people are not dumb anymore.

 

[ChaosMarc]

The small German rest of them fled to Norway in the meantime. There is still some activity in Europe but null in Germany. They have to act very careful, people are not dumb anymore.

What, no American Armanists?

 

[RabbitPants]

The small German rest of them fled to Norway in the meantime. There is still some activity in Europe but null in Germany. They have to act very careful, people are not dumb anymore.

You're quite wrong. The successors to Von List's legacy still operate in Germany to this day, it is through them that people like Flowers got educated on rune magic.

What, no American Armanists?

Stephen Flowers was taught by them whilst in Germany, from this experience he created his own system. There have been attempts to create Armanist groups in the US, they always fail since they can't separate Armanism from National Socialism and the Volkish movement, this is why Flowers took a different approach and tried to lie about certain parts of history, or was successful about it because few enough people were into it to care to correct him.

There is one North American Armanist's work I would recommend, though only as a compilation since he only compiles the work that is available online, and that's Aelfric Avery. The Armanic current was in essence the magical undercurrent working through the Third Reich, it is also a current that is deeply intertwined with the secret society that spawned the Thule, which spawned the NSDAP, namely the Germanenorden. There have been attempts to "non-racialize" it, but it doesn't get very far, ultimately all rune magic used, including rune yoga, murk runes (runes turned on their sides or upside down having the negative connotation), galdr and rune mudras come from the Armanists, this is why people like Flowers (with his American worldview) had to distance themselves from it.

 

[Öwnchef]

What, no American Armanists?

That of course. They will never die out. Americans: First they destroy the Nazis, then repent full throttle. My roaring laughter will never end.

 

[Öwnchef]

You're quite wrong

No way. I know exactly what happens magically in this country.
The last consolidated ariosophic activity happened from 1990-2000. They failed hard. So it's Norway or Northern Italy today.

 

[ChaosMarc]

You're quite wrong. The successors to Von List's legacy still operate in Germany to this day, it is through them that people like Flowers got educated on rune magic.


Stephen Flowers was taught by them whilst in Germany, from this experience he created his own system. There have been attempts to create Armanist groups in the US, they always fail since they can't separate Armanism from National Socialism and the Volkish movement, this is why Flowers took a different approach and tried to lie about certain parts of history, or was successful about it because few enough people were into it to care to correct him.

There is one North American Armanist's work I would recommend, though only as a compilation since he only compiles the work that is available online, and that's Aelfric Avery. The Armanic current was in essence the magical undercurrent working through the Third Reich, it is also a current that is deeply intertwined with the secret society that spawned the Thule, which spawned the NSDAP, namely the Germanenorden. There have been attempts to "non-racialize" it, but it doesn't get very far, ultimately all rune magic used, including rune yoga, murk runes (runes turned on their sides or upside down having the negative connotation), galdr and rune mudras come from the Armanists, this is why people like Flowers (with his American worldview) had to distance themselves from it/

When I was an angsty teenager I used to read all about the Thule society and supposedly they were in contact with Aliens that looked Aryan and Nordic and some of their people lived in the Hollow Earth and some lived on Saturn. Interesting stuff but where I am right now I don't have the tools to really draw any conclusions other than "Far out" and "Whoaaaaa Duuuude".

I really wish Stephen Flowers wasn't seen as a huge liar since he is the only non-Nazi that knows that system of magic (That is willing to write a how-to book on it) . It looks like he has a book on the Fraternitas Saturni, since we are talking about german magical groups, do you know anything about them?

Thank you for the Aelfric Avery recommendation, I can look up his compilations and hopefully find a nugget or two of gold in there.

 

[Öwnchef]

> It looks like he has a book on the Fraternitas Saturni, since we are talking about german magical groups, do you know anything about them?

Who, me? Of course I do.

 

[RabbitPants]

No way. I know exactly what happens magically in this country.
The last consolidated ariosophic activity happened from 1990-2000. They failed hard. So it's Norway or Northern Italy today.

Sure, which is why the High Armanen Orden is still operating in Germany even after Adolf Schleipfer's recent death.

When I was an angsty teenager I used to read all about the Thule society and supposedly they were in contact with Aliens that looked Aryan and Nordic and some of their people lived in the Hollow Earth and some lived on Saturn. Interesting stuff but where I am right now I don't have the tools to really draw any conclusions other than "Far out" and "Whoaaaaa Duuuude".

I really wish Stephen Flowers wasn't seen as a huge liar since he is the only non-Nazi that knows that system of magic (That is willing to write a how-to book on it) . It looks like he has a book on the Fraternitas Saturni, since we are talking about german magical groups, do you know anything about them?

Thank you for the Aelfric Avery recommendation, I can look up his compilations and hopefully find a nugget or two of gold in there.

The Fraternity of Saturn are a very interesting Thelemic group, they're not Thelemic in the OTO sense. They also used to use the Armanen runes, I don't think it's a requirement though. And yeah most of the UFO alien stuff is bullshit that actually comes from a French fiction series called the Morning of the Magicians, and people thought it was a fiction based on real events.

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[RabbitPants]

When I was an angsty teenager I used to read all about the Thule society and supposedly they were in contact with Aliens that looked Aryan and Nordic and some of their people lived in the Hollow Earth and some lived on Saturn. Interesting stuff but where I am right now I don't have the tools to really draw any conclusions other than "Far out" and "Whoaaaaa Duuuude".

I really wish Stephen Flowers wasn't seen as a huge liar since he is the only non-Nazi that knows that system of magic (That is willing to write a how-to book on it) . It looks like he has a book on the Fraternitas Saturni, since we are talking about german magical groups, do you know anything about them?

Thank you for the Aelfric Avery recommendation, I can look up his compilations and hopefully find a nugget or two of gold in there.

Also, regarding Flowers/Thorsson. I wouldn't dissuade you from practicing his system. His lies pertain to the Armanists and WW2, so it's historical. The metaphysical system of flowers isn't the problem, in fact I think it's much easier for someone that comes from the "pathworking please hold my hand and give me step by step instructions" kind of background that the Western tradition encourages. From my experience it doesn't matter which set of runes you work with, you will achieve the same results because you'll be working with the same forces. The differences is those rows with more runes take the some runes from the lesser rows and split them into two runes, so they still contain the same essences.

Also, Flowers isn't necessarily a hippy either. He's Volkish, but in an anti-German sense, which is quite contradictory. Whilst they try to portray themselves as tribalists, the reality is that anyone who's been a member of the Rune Gild can tell you that the majority of adherents are, or at least were, Volkish thus racialists. Even a guy like Blumetti (who looks like an Arab) and his "Church of Vrilology" came from the Rune Gild and turned out somewhat racialist.

 

[ChaosMarc]

Who, me? Of course I do.

Are you willing to share what you know?

Also, regarding Flowers/Thorsson. I wouldn't dissuade you from practicing his system. His lies pertain to the Armanists and WW2, so it's historical. The metaphysical system of flowers isn't the problem, in fact I think it's much easier for someone that comes from the "pathworking please hold my hand and give me step by step instructions" kind of background that the Western tradition encourages. From my experience it doesn't matter which set of runes you work with, you will achieve the same results because you'll be working with the same forces. The differences is those rows with more runes take the some runes from the lesser rows and split them into two runes, so they still contain the same essences.

Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate step-by-step instructions, especially when starting a new subset of magic. I think the phrase "You can learn at least one thing from everyone you come across in life" applies here. Learn his system of magic? Yes. Learn to be racist? No. LOL

The Fraternity of Saturn are a very interesting Thelemic group, they're not Thelemic in the OTO sense. They also used to use the Armanen runes, I don't think it's a requirement though. And yeah most of the UFO alien stuff is bullshit that actually comes from a French fiction series called the Morning of the Magicians, and people thought it was a fiction based on real events.

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Good to know people got their fiction mixed up with magical groups. Ignorance and fear can skew people's minds in interesting ways.

 

[RabbitPants]

Are you willing to share what you know?

Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate step-by-step instructions, especially when starting a new subset of magic. I think the phrase "You can learn at least one thing from everyone you come across in life" applies here. Learn his system of magic? Yes. Learn to be racist? No. LOL

Good to know people got their fiction mixed up with magical groups. Ignorance and fear can skew people's minds in interesting ways.

No offense, but with normie-level logic as presented, I doubt you'd learn much from any of those teachers, but you can waste your time however you'd like.