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Has anyone worked with Mark Rasmus or Sixty Skills? A different perspective on Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

ChaosMarc

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There are a few well know people like Mark Rasmus, Sixty Skills, Martin Faulks, and William Mistelle, and I am sure I forgot a few people that have all claimed to have worked through Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

Most of these people have various training programs or books for sale that give their own perspectives on going through the IIH.
Mark Rasmus has a book called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and he has a training program that is $30 USD/ Month. You can also train with him in Thailand for $1500 for 10 days, for 4 hours a day. His website is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Has anyone worked through the material either in his book, training programs or in person with him?

From what I can tell from buying and reading the book but not purchasing the training program from Vimeo or his website is that he mixes the order of exercises up so you can figure out what exercises are easier for the individual, and focuses on those exercises to more easily develop the different energetic bodies and through this development make it easier for the individual to work through the exercises in the IIH that would normally slow their development through the system. If this is wrong, I would love to hear from people who have worked through it or are working through it to get their perspectives.

The main concern I have with this is if I am not in person with this teacher and I get too much fire element or akasha energy in my system and I become unbalanced without knowing, that seems like a very unsafe practice. I have direct experience being unbalanced and ignorant and staying unbalanced for months and having very negative side effects from my ignorance. It makes total sense if this teacher working with me is physically watching me and other students and someone invariably makes a mistake without knowing it, the teacher can correct the behavior or imbalance. I recognize that Mark probably has the ability to "visit" each of his students from his online courses and check on their progress periodically and see if they are way off center and be able to "fix" the imbalances from a distance, but that doesn't seem to be written out anywhere that this is part of what the student is paying for.

I think the IIH is a great material as is written but I also think that after 60 years, human nature's ability to innovate can figure out a way to take down the timeline from "between 7 and 30 years" to finish working through the IIH. With the average life expectancy being 72 years, someone spending almost half of that in a training program would severely limit the number of individuals that would be able to go through this training. I know some of you are going to be screaming at me through the screen "The IIH isn't for everyone!" and "This system takes a long time for a reason, the karmic debt is being compressed a lot already, any faster than 7 or 20 or 30 years will be too much!" I get it, you and I have different opinions. Both opinions are valid. It's all good. I am more taking the approach of Rawn Clark: "We need more real humans with human abilities in the world". The more people that can access this system and work through it, the more people will be out there moving through the world with balanced elements, real knowledge of themselves, devoted and looking forward to spreading love. I look forward to that.

That being said, there is also a teacher named Sixty Skills
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that learned from Mark Rasmus and a few other martial artists/ energy workers/ meditators and such, and he seems to have the same or a very similar training program in the form of an app for $5 USD/month. Again, I would love to hear from people that are going through it or have gone through it.

My perspective: I have been working through the IIH in the traditional sense with the help of Rawn Clark's Companions along the way book and next week I will be moving to Step 2. I believe in IIH as a system without any change but I am intrigued by the people that have worked through it and can look at the system from the perspective of a Step 8, 9, 10 Bardonist and may have some improvements.
 

Öwnchef

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... you can waste your time however you'd like.
Sure. Everything important happened behind closed doors, knowledge was passed "from ear to ear".
Only very few persons were present each time. So you could find the rat in no time.

Most of them are dead by now. Nobody cares anymore. In Germany, that is.
 

ChaosMarc

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No offense, but with normie-level logic as presented, I doubt you'd learn much from any of those teachers, but you can waste your time however you'd like.
Oh, I meant to learn his system from his books, not him in person. Aka learn from him through his books
 

ChaosMarc

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Anything. I was and partly am an integral part of it - for over 50 years. Just ask away.
I appreciate the openness but unfortunately, I'm not in a place where I would be able to ask any intelligent questions on the matter. I would love to take a rain check and take some time to do some research on the topic though 😅
Sure. Everything important happened behind closed doors, knowledge was passed "from ear to ear".
Only very few persons were present each time. So you could find the rat in no time.

Most of them are dead by now. Nobody cares anymore. In Germany, that is.
 

Öwnchef

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I appreciate the openness but unfortunately, I'm not in a place where I would be able to ask any intelligent questions on the matter. I would love to take a rain check and take some time to do some research on the topic though 😅
Of course. The FS developed into a "to be continued" order. They had always been highly bureaucratic, being German and all, and at some point the magical contents suffered so hard, that they were barely recognizable.
From the beginning sex had always been a subject. There had been a sex ritual in a circus tent in Munich, announced to the press. The idea was to turn the lights off as soon as the going would get rough. Unfortunately the cameras of the journalists had flashlights (duh).
Nicely done. Their naked arses were soon laughed at everywhere. The FS part one was over.
The other thing, concerning every German order, was National Socialism returning through Ariosophia. Every sentence beginning with why was answered by the jews. Magical orders became criminal and brutal. Leaders ended up in jail for rape, murder, kidnapping, trafficking, drug dealing, blackmailing and having assault weapons. All that went through the press in Germany. At that time when I rented rooms for seminary purposes (I worked for an Institute of Prof. Weizsäcker), I had to sign a paper that said I was not affiliated to any magical or spiritual order. It was over.

The last movement was the founding of the IOT. Peter Carroll did not know what hit him there in Bonn. These Germans were the essence of brutality. Pete flew in panic at the same night. The Ice age had begun. Leading to the Matrix and way darker criminal practices.

From there on honour became a thing in German Orders. Being honourless meant the ad hoc end of your magical career. I saw many Großmeister fall. Anything racist was and is honourless. Anything criminal was and is, of course.

We finally freed ourselves from the grip of criminal subjects in magic. Now the real work starts.
 

ChaosMarc

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Of course. The FS developed into a "to be continued" order. They had always been highly bureaucratic, being German and all, and at some point the magical contents suffered so hard, that they were barely recognizable.
From the beginning sex had always been a subject. There had been a sex ritual in a circus tent in Munich, announced to the press. The idea was to turn the lights off as soon as the going would get rough. Unfortunately the cameras of the journalists had flashlights (duh).
Nicely done. Their naked arses were soon laughed at everywhere. The FS part one was over.
The other thing, concerning every German order, was National Socialism returning through Ariosophia. Every sentence beginning with why was answered by the jews. Magical orders became criminal and brutal. Leaders ended up in jail for rape, murder, kidnapping, trafficking, drug dealing, blackmailing and having assault weapons. All that went through the press in Germany. At that time when I rented rooms for seminary purposes (I worked for an Institute of Prof. Weizsäcker), I had to sign a paper that said I was not affiliated to any magical or spiritual order. It was over.

The last movement was the founding of the IOT. Peter Carroll did not know what hit him there in Bonn. These Germans were the essence of brutality. Pete flew in panic at the same night. The Ice age had begun. Leading to the Matrix and way darker criminal practices.

From there on honour became a thing in German Orders. Being honourless meant the ad hoc end of your magical career. I saw many Großmeister fall. Anything racist was and is honourless. Anything criminal was and is, of course.

We finally freed ourselves from the grip of criminal subjects in magic. Now the real work starts.
Wow, that sounds horrible. Maybe I am colored too much by focusing on Bardon's works because morality is sort of ingrained in and the intention of helping your fellow man is woven through the whole first book but I'm a pretty firm believer that magic shouldn't be constrained by the laws of a land but some type of code of morality. For instance, in Virginia in the USA, it is technically illegal for children to go trick-or-treating on Halloween. Now that's not inherently magical but still, it goes to show that some laws are created by some dipshit somewhere that was probably lobbied to create it to benefit an interested party. But then again, I'm not willing to do the work to try and start a new movement or magical society so maybe I should just keep my opinions to myself.

One question that I can think of is this: Are there any other authors I should look at pertaining to FS besides Stephen Flowers?
 

Öwnchef

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Wow, that sounds horrible. Maybe I am colored too much by focusing on Bardon's works because morality is sort of ingrained in and the intention of helping your fellow man is woven through the whole first book but I'm a pretty firm believer that magic shouldn't be constrained by the laws of a land but some type of code of morality. For instance, in Virginia in the USA, it is technically illegal for children to go trick-or-treating on Halloween. Now that's not inherently magical but still, it goes to show that some laws are created by some dipshit somewhere that was probably lobbied to create it to benefit an interested party. But then again, I'm not willing to do the work to try and start a new movement or magical society so maybe I should just keep my opinions to myself.

One question that I can think of is this: Are there any other authors I should look at pertaining to FS besides Stephen Flowers?
It is all in German. Peter König dived in pretty deep, but anything available including him is short and dubios. Flowers got inspired by Ralph (Tegtmeier) and adopted the Ice of Ralph to Fire and Ice. It is all race-based and practically violent. Shit is from 1990, all before everything went down in Matrix and R-IOT.

Ralph is still active, working together with Frater Acher today. But that is not the FS of course. The last loge of them I know of existed in Kaiserslautern, but went under a different name (Communitas Saturni).
 

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The last movement was the founding of the IOT. Peter Carroll did not know what hit him there in Bonn. These Germans were the essence of brutality. Pete flew in panic at the same night. The Ice age had begun. Leading to the Matrix and way darker criminal practices.
The Ice wars wasn’t just a tale then?
 

Öwnchef

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The Ice wars wasn’t just a tale then?
I understand why Ralph disliked the term war. At least at that point. He downplayed it as a mere schism. I read his Eismagie very early and I had warned him before hell broke lose. He didn't listen. He was in denial all the time. He probably still is.
If you had been there you would have called it a war. No doubt.
 

Vandheer

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I understand why Ralph disliked the term war. At least at that point. He downplayed it as a mere schism. I read his Eismagie very early and I had warned him before hell broke lose. He didn't listen. He was in denial all the time. He probably still is.
If you had been there you would have called it a war. No doubt.
I had a feeling that event wasnt just myth. I appreciate the confirmation, thanks Öwnchef
 

Öwnchef

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Yvw. I was there, in disguise. It all went up in flames and smoke. The owner told me they left damage at a sum of 5k. Firefighters and police were involved. Yes, very real.
 

thepolestar

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I will say one thing - Initiation Into Hermetics is truly one of the best texts out there. I started learning magic through that manual. I came to it after several years of meditation training and yoga training, of course, but this was the first thing I learned about magic.

Its practices immediately opened all my buried feelings about my ancestral line and I began releasing that trauma. I was able to see all the repressed pain caused by my incredibly evil mother, a narcissist who abused me, betrayed me, and basically destroyed my life. I could NOT have seen any of that if I hadn't done Initiation Into Hermetics. It helped me become a mentally stable witch.

I know this thread is about another teaching, but I feel like plugging the original. It's so good. I think Franz Bardon is a genius.
 

Elementriloquist

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There are a few well know people like Mark Rasmus, Sixty Skills, Martin Faulks, and William Mistelle, and I am sure I forgot a few people that have all claimed to have worked through Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon.

Most of these people have various training programs or books for sale that give their own perspectives on going through the IIH.
Mark Rasmus has a book called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and he has a training program that is $30 USD/ Month. You can also train with him in Thailand for $1500 for 10 days, for 4 hours a day. His website is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Has anyone worked through the material either in his book, training programs or in person with him?

From what I can tell from buying and reading the book but not purchasing the training program from Vimeo or his website is that he mixes the order of exercises up so you can figure out what exercises are easier for the individual, and focuses on those exercises to more easily develop the different energetic bodies and through this development make it easier for the individual to work through the exercises in the IIH that would normally slow their development through the system. If this is wrong, I would love to hear from people who have worked through it or are working through it to get their perspectives.

The main concern I have with this is if I am not in person with this teacher and I get too much fire element or akasha energy in my system and I become unbalanced without knowing, that seems like a very unsafe practice. I have direct experience being unbalanced and ignorant and staying unbalanced for months and having very negative side effects from my ignorance. It makes total sense if this teacher working with me is physically watching me and other students and someone invariably makes a mistake without knowing it, the teacher can correct the behavior or imbalance. I recognize that Mark probably has the ability to "visit" each of his students from his online courses and check on their progress periodically and see if they are way off center and be able to "fix" the imbalances from a distance, but that doesn't seem to be written out anywhere that this is part of what the student is paying for.

I think the IIH is a great material as is written but I also think that after 60 years, human nature's ability to innovate can figure out a way to take down the timeline from "between 7 and 30 years" to finish working through the IIH. With the average life expectancy being 72 years, someone spending almost half of that in a training program would severely limit the number of individuals that would be able to go through this training. I know some of you are going to be screaming at me through the screen "The IIH isn't for everyone!" and "This system takes a long time for a reason, the karmic debt is being compressed a lot already, any faster than 7 or 20 or 30 years will be too much!" I get it, you and I have different opinions. Both opinions are valid. It's all good. I am more taking the approach of Rawn Clark: "We need more real humans with human abilities in the world". The more people that can access this system and work through it, the more people will be out there moving through the world with balanced elements, real knowledge of themselves, devoted and looking forward to spreading love. I look forward to that.

That being said, there is also a teacher named Sixty Skills
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that learned from Mark Rasmus and a few other martial artists/ energy workers/ meditators and such, and he seems to have the same or a very similar training program in the form of an app for $5 USD/month. Again, I would love to hear from people that are going through it or have gone through it.

My perspective: I have been working through the IIH in the traditional sense with the help of Rawn Clark's Companions along the way book and next week I will be moving to Step 2. I believe in IIH as a system without any change but I am intrigued by the people that have worked through it and can look at the system from the perspective of a Step 8, 9, 10 Bardonist and may have some improvements.
Bardons writings are already extremely detailed enough, you don't need a new mentor, reading Initiation Into Hermetics is like a parent teaching you magic. It's the definition of spoon feeding and that's exactly why I like it, and why I think it's the best book for those who are ignorant and just starting off like myself.

You can't buy your way into everything. Someone will always try to sell you some "new super secret method".

If someone has truly mastered just the first book (Initiation Into Hermetics) they should already be a millionaire, so why would they be charging $1500 to train people. Doesn't make sense, just sounds like a scammer to me.

In fact not even mastery of all the steps is required. As soon as you've mastered creating elementaries (Step 7 [VII]) you should already be living a different life to the common man, because you don't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Money can come very easily through various means.

Think about it, if you could create a "magical entity" that can influence other peoples minds and isn't limited by space or time, would you be selling a course online and use marketing to coerce people?

You could do something mundane like sell hot dogs on some random street and make a killing, because you could use an elementary to draw customers to you. That's just one example. The government won't even be able to properly tax that income lol.

You could do insider trading without actually doing insider trading, because you could use your elementary to go into certain establishments and get the information, etc.

The more I see so called "masters" selling courses online, the more I doubt they can even do the basics, because someone with these abilities would not even be a public face, they'd quietly fade into the background of society.

During the gold rush, it wasn't the people digging for gold that made the most money, it was the people who were selling shovels and buckets.

You need to ask yourself:
If someone already has the tools required to gather a large amount of gold by themselves, why are they selling you the tools for gold, instead of simply just using those tools to get 100 times what they are charging you?
 

Mider2009

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It's not that I feel he's teaching bullshit, Mark Rasmus is in all honesty the least full of shit Daoist out there, and trust me I've learned from a lot of them. The reason I say it is bullshit, is because in my experience and research, so both within my personal gnosis and objectively via research, I have concluded that what Westerners consider Hermetics does not accomplish what it is that I want to accomplish, and neither does Neidan inner alchemy.

To elaborate, the Western paradigm itself is based on a false system, the Kabbalah isn't some ancient idea, it's a fairly recent one cobbled together with some surviving ideas, and the Hermetic version of it is used to substitute a pre-Christian spherical system which was used by the pre-Christian Hermeticists. The pre-Christian Hermetic system, fragments of which survived in Sufism since the early Christians chased the Hermeticist into the Near East and North Africa since the early muslims were a lot more open-minded (this is why they like Plato), and in some Roman writings, such as the Dream/Vision of Scipio. There was a similar form of "reconstruction" occurring in the 14th century with regards to a Western Hermetic system, based on more Christian/Judaic principles, as has been occurring in heathen circles. These people did not faithfully reproduce the system as it was, but according to their own beliefs. A simple, yet very complex, example of this is how Marsilio Ficino wrote his "Platonic Theology", explicitly admitting to that he wanted to make it more Christian than the "Platonic Theology" written by the Neoplatonist Proclus.

If you understand, which we can determine from pre-Christian Greek and Roman sources, the spherical system used by the Hermeticists, it was based on the Seven Luminaries, or 7 planets. This stems from the Chaldean astrological idea, spoken of in the Dream/Vision of Scipio, that there are seven stars, and two forms of existence beyond them. When an individual is born into this world, they descend through the planets, and in turn the planets leave their essences in people. For the Chaldeans, according to Roman sources, this is why reincarnation took place, so when an individual dies, not having gotten rid of the planetary essences left in them upon their descent, they were forced to come re-descend. In the same tradition the idea was that in order to escape reincarnation, one hard to perform rituals in order to leave behind the essences the planets had originally left in your spirit, and in doing so ascend and escape reincarnation.

Kabbalah is based on both a misinterpretation of these ideas, since they didn't have the same sources at their disposal back then, as well as a deliberate perversion towards a more Judeo-Christian ideal. The Western Hermeticists are thus, not more legitimate than any form of modern magic, since their own system is based on a misunderstanding of an old one, and yet it is presented as such due to dogma. At the same time, having practiced correctly oriented Hermeticism, even the Hermetic ideal itself, is opposed to the Germanic concept of immortality, as well as the Left-hand path concept of "self-deification". Since what I seek is self-deification or a spiritual individuation, even the true Hermetic tradition (which is steeped in Platonic asceticism and life rejection) which results in assimilation with Platonic One or Jewish God (which I don't believe in) contradicts what I seek to accomplish.

What we call Daoism is similar, more than you would expect. In fact what we call Daoism today, originally came from the Esoteric Buddhist school in China, Chan Buddhism, which was taken to China by Bodhirama. This is why you'll see so many similarities between the energetic practices of the Chan Buddhists and the Daoists, because Daoism comes from Esoteric Buddhism. People misunderstand Buddhism, because they think of it as some peaceful religion, which it generally is, however wherever it goes it destroys the indigenous religion and absorbs it. This is why if you go to Tibet, the Dzogchen Buddhists absorbed elements of the Bon religion, if you go to Japan, the Shingon Buddhists absorbed the mystical Onmyouji elements contained in Shinto. It absorbs ideas, but orients them in a similar fashion as Western Hermeticism and Platonism, towards the process of assimilation with Platonic One.

Now the Doaists, much like the various schools of Yoga, have different schools of thought pertaining to how energy works, but they have their own Dantien system, which like the Chakra system, was created to facilitate the process of spiritual assimilation. So when Daoists talk of "immortals", they actually different levels of immortals, and the highest form of immortal, the "heavenly immortal", isn't really an immortal in what the Western LHP considers to be immortal, but is one who has accomplished assimilation with Dao/Tao and is merely an emanation of Dao/Tao. This may sound familiar to you if you were educated on the works of the Neoplatonist Plotinus, after all, he believes in emanation from One. So Daoism too contradicts my own desire.

Another thing to point out, is that LHP and RHP in the East, even though they inspired the terminology in the West, are actually both RHP from a Western perspective. The Eastern RHP is a slow process, this is the path which through multiple incarnations results in assimilation. The Eastern LHP is an attempt to accomplish the same form of assimilation in a single lifetime, which you can find in the Tantric traditions in Hindu, as well as Esoteric Buddhists schools such as Chan and Shingon Buddhism. When I was getting into Daoism, I was looking to mix it with my Hermetic practices, as Mark Rasmus does, and was mistakenly led to believe that Daoism is LHP, in reality it is what I pointed out before, that what I seek does not exist within the Eastern paradigm. Not in Daoism, not in any form of Yoga, Kundalini doesn't accomplish it, Kunlun (which is a form of banned Daoism in China from the original Heterodox Maoshan tradition) doesn't accomplish it, etc.

So when I say it is bullshit, it is bullshit for me, since I have walked those paths very intently, I was taught by the best of masters, but it was ultimately contradictory to what my spiritual goal is. It is also bullshit in the modern Western "LHP" context, because they adopt the practices of the Western RHP (Christianized Hermetics) and mix them with the practices of the Eastern LHP (equivalent to the Western RHP) and think that it yields a different result and results in spiritual individuation instead of assimilation because they use the Qliphoth instead of Qabalah, and because they don't understand that Eastern schools don't really actually have a LHP from a Western perspective. So it's bullshit in the context of the Western LHP, people trying to accomplish apotheosis/self-deification/spiritual individuation, because they appropriate ideas that don't result in the outcome they desire.

But as stated, if your spiritual ideal is assimilation, I would highly recommend Mark Rasmus, I would also recommend looking into the Daoist Magic manuals of Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson (not his medical stuff), since they elaborate a great deal on the Neidan practices of the multiple schools in which he is ordained a Daoist priest.
Kabbalah has many schools and interpretations, some are more academic some are way older but theres Plenty about angelic powers, planets, etc in many teachings even the Rambam

It’s my opinion that many different cultures saw God in their own visions and created some systems magical system. This is why Hindu’s, Daoists, etc know there’s Only one Creator but there’s many so called lower gods

these lower gods may be demons, Egregors, or Angels

look up Sri Ramakrishna, he saw Kali as the universal mother.
 

Mider2009

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When I was an angsty teenager I used to read all about the Thule society and supposedly they were in contact with Aliens that looked Aryan and Nordic and some of their people lived in the Hollow Earth and some lived on Saturn. Interesting stuff but where I am right now I don't have the tools to really draw any conclusions other than "Far out" and "Whoaaaaa Duuuude".

I really wish Stephen Flowers wasn't seen as a huge liar since he is the only non-Nazi that knows that system of magic (That is willing to write a how-to book on it) :(. It looks like he has a book on the Fraternitas Saturni, since we are talking about german magical groups, do you know anything about them?

Thank you for the Aelfric Avery recommendation, I can look up his compilations and hopefully find a nugget or two of gold in there.
They may have been in contact with darker forces
 

Mider2009

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Bardons writings are already extremely detailed enough, you don't need a new mentor, reading Initiation Into Hermetics is like a parent teaching you magic. It's the definition of spoon feeding and that's exactly why I like it, and why I think it's the best book for those who are ignorant and just starting off like myself.

You can't buy your way into everything. Someone will always try to sell you some "new super secret method".

If someone has truly mastered just the first book (Initiation Into Hermetics) they should already be a millionaire, so why would they be charging $1500 to train people. Doesn't make sense, just sounds like a scammer to me.

In fact not even mastery of all the steps is required. As soon as you've mastered creating elementaries (Step 7 [VII]) you should already be living a different life to the common man, because you don't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Money can come very easily through various means.

Think about it, if you could create a "magical entity" that can influence other peoples minds and isn't limited by space or time, would you be selling a course online and use marketing to coerce people?

You could do something mundane like sell hot dogs on some random street and make a killing, because you could use an elementary to draw customers to you. That's just one example. The government won't even be able to properly tax that income lol.

You could do insider trading without actually doing insider trading, because you could use your elementary to go into certain establishments and get the information, etc.

The more I see so called "masters" selling courses online, the more I doubt they can even do the basics, because someone with these abilities would not even be a public face, they'd quietly fade into the background of society.

During the gold rush, it wasn't the people digging for gold that made the most money, it was the people who were selling shovels and buckets.

You need to ask yourself:
If someone already has the tools required to gather a large amount of gold by themselves, why are they selling you the tools for gold, instead of simply just using those tools to get 100 times what they are charging you?
I don’t think most spirits can just control anyone.

also what makes you think magic can just make you rich? I’ve never heard 9f many mages who weren’t already educated using their skills to be rich

i know a rabbi who sells classes, he’s def not making a killing, in fact he’s given hundreds of hours of lectures and videos out for free. I mean moneys not just gonna fall out of the sky into his lap.

im not criticizing you I’m js people need realistic expectations, even levi said this in the satanic Bible, a guy looking to use magic to get a a model when he’s 300 pounds ain’t gonna work

Dion Fortune said the same thing as do the Kabbalist's, you can’t go against the established order of nature

it’s always annoyed me when people think magic is a cure all

having said that I agree with you 100 percent that many teachers are full of shit, many sell magic they know won’t work, others flat out scam people, as much as spirituality should be respected a lot of these guys just treat it as a way to make a buck

if this guy mentioned in the discussion can teach something worth learning then idk why it be wrong to charge. People have to eat.
 

Mider2009

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With regards to Mark Rasmus, I used to learn from him and Jerry Alan Johnson. If you were to ask other orthodox Daoists they would vouch for his "lineage" in Daoism which he mixes with Bardon's work. If you're going down the bullshit routes, which includes Daoist alchemy and Western hermetics, his is probably the best since he mixes them, you'll either learn earlier on that it's bullshit or you'll just stop practicing like most people.
What’s your opinion of Jerry Alan Johnson, I’ve heard him in an interview and found him very interesting.
 

Elementriloquist

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I don’t think most spirits can just control anyone.
I'm just going by what I've read in Initiation Into Hermetics. You can definitely control people using elementaries. In fact you can make someone think it was their own thoughts and their own choice to do things that you implanted into their mind using an elementary. Essentially controlling them without them even realizing they are being controlled.

The control I'm talking about isn't even bending their will, the control I'm talking about circumvents their will and replaces their will with yours. That's real control because they won't even fight it.

Though I'm sure you could also bend someone to your will too.

also what makes you think magic can just make you rich?
I never said magic can "just make you rich", you are kind of being disingenuous right now, I gave very clear and specific examples. If what is written in the book is true, then you can use certain abilities in various ways to very easily get rich.

Now you can argue that what is in the book is false and that's a different argument. I won't argue with you on that because I have no proof either way, I'm still training. But if someone believes what is in the book is true, they cannot disagree with what I've said.

If you can make people want to purchase something you're selling, then you are pretty much guaranteed riches. If you can steal "insider information" without anyone knowing, then you are pretty much guaranteed riches (if you learn how to use that information to make money).

If someone has mastered up to Step 7 in Initiation Into Hermetics they have all of these abilities. I'm not a genius, not even close, and I came up with two easy ways one could use their abilities to become rich very quickly. If you're telling me these master gurus need to sell $1500 courses instead of using their abilities like I described, you are joking.

I’ve never heard 9f many mages who weren’t already educated using their skills to be rich.
What makes them a "mage" in your book, what's your criteria or proof?

What feats have you observed them execute in physical reality with your own two eyes?

You see, this is why I like Bardon's writings and I don't trust other occult authors. Bardon speaks about magic as phenomenon that can be observed and tested. Other authors speak about magic like it's something vague and illusory (likely on purpose).

It's very easy to claim you can do something when it can't be observed or tested, and by that note there's no reason to trust such claims.

Bardon is very literal with his description of magic in theory and practice, he speaks about it like it's a science.

I will not take "trust me bro, I'm legit" as proof lol. I don't care about word of mouth either because they could all be in on it. I need to see something that defies reality before my very eyes, and it has to be something that is inexplicable through normal means and can't be attributed to coincidence.

I mean moneys not just gonna fall out of the sky into his lap.
It wouldn't need to fall into his lap. There's so many ways he could use his alleged abilities to make money very quickly. Nobody with legit magic abilities should be selling courses online like some scammer :ROFLMAO:.

Im not criticizing you I’m js people need realistic expectations
I'm open to criticism, I won't take it personally anyways.

The ONLY "realistic expectation" in this technologically advanced modern world is - "Magic doesn't exist".

The moment you begin to walk down the path of magic being a reality, you've ironically already stopped having realistic expectations. Magic at it's core is not a realistic expectation for the world we live in today.

All you are doing right now is arbitrarily drawing a line of separation, when most people today would say you are "crazy" for believing in the occult period.

even levi said this in the satanic Bible, a guy looking to use magic to get a a model when he’s 300 pounds ain’t gonna work
I find this funny. There are so many old occult writings, even in the Greek Papyrus, that talk about love charms, love spells, etc. Things that force someone to fall in love with you. But all of a sudden magic is incapable of making a model fall in love with a 300 pound man?

Is every occult writing that speaks about love potions and love spells filled with lies then?

It always confuses me how so many of you guys believe in this upside down, endlessly fluctuating "framework" for how "magic" works. It has no consistency, order, or logic to it's rules. It just always conveniently works in a way in which people have to simply believe all magic that cannot be observed or tested.

The unobservable (astral projection, talking to spirits, etc) is always accepted as a possibility, and the observable (moving objects with your mind, creating spontaneous fires, etc) is conveniently always impossible, despite objectively being a lesser feat in comparison to the unobservable.

Many people in forums like this will say that they can literally commune with Gods, Demons, etc, but they can't use their abilities in some way to start making $500 a day? :ROFLMAO: (make that make sense).

This is like me claiming I can do 100 pull ups if nobody is watching, but at the same time I can't do 10 push ups if people are watching. You can't have it both ways. I don't see any consistency is the "framework" for magic that most people talk about online.

Dion Fortune said the same thing as do the Kabbalist's, you can’t go against the established order of nature.
Once again, you are drawing a convenient arbitrary line. Literally every feat from astral projection to divination "goes against the established order of nature".

You are just drawing an arbitrary line of where you believe the natural ends and the supernatural begins.

But who decided that line and why should I believe them?

it’s always annoyed me when people think magic is a cure all
Never made that claim, I was very specific. All I know is if someone tells me they can astral project, but they are a broke wage slave at Mc Donald's who gets verbally abused by their manager everyday, please forgive me for doubting their ability and thinking they are just delusional or lying.

A lot of these people are like parodies from movies. They meet up in person with their various personal artifacts, items, special clothing, etc. Presenting this image that they are so far above the common man, and they are enlightened. Then the next day they go to their office job to be shouted down by an obnoxious boss.

It's like something straight out of a comedy.

I would not even consider myself a true magician if I couldn't use my abilities to escape the mundane limitations of the average man.

if this guy mentioned in the discussion can teach something worth learning then idk why it be wrong to charge. People have to eat.
Therein lies the problem. How can one claim to have mastery over the elements and yet they can't even be the master of their own path in life. Sounds fishy to me.

Sounds ridiculous to me for someone to claim they can create spontaneous fires, become clairvoyant, etc, but they have no choice but to "work for money" like every other powerless human on the planet.

If your results in life are the same as someone who isn't doing all the occult training you are, then you are literally wasting your time lol.


It's really simple. One either believes Bardon's writings or they don't. Bardon is very literal in his writings, there is no room for interpretation that allows someone to say "he didn't mean that ability was literally possible".

EXAMPLE 1 (Using A Thermometer To Test For Changes In Room Temperature):
Initiation Into Hermetics
Step 5 (V)
Magic Psychic Training 5 (V)
Page 110
Repeat the accumulation and evacuation several times, and by each emptying, you will accumulate the fiery element all the more in the room. As soon as you are free from the element yourself, you ought to feel how the element is amassing in the room, and get the sensation of the room becoming very warm. After some exercising, the warmth in the room will become not only a subjective, but a real matter of fact and any person—magically trained or not—entering this room is actually bound to feel the warmth. A thermometer does indicate, how far we are capable to condense our imagination with respect to the fire, so that factually a materially perceptible warmth can be produced in the room. The success of this exercise depends entirely on the willpower and the plastic imaginative faculty. It is not absolutely necessary, in this step, to bring about such an amount of physical warmth that it can be measured with a thermometer. But supposing a magician takes a keen interest in working in this more spectacular way, he can specialise himself in this problem with the help of these instructions. The genuine magician, however, will not be satisfied with such an insignificant phenomenon, and rather prefer to further his own development, because he is firmly convinced that he can obtain much more, as time goes on."

EXAMPLE 2 (Lighting A Fire Using Magic):
Initiation Into Hermetics
Step 5 (V)
Magic Psychic Training 5 (V)
Page 114
"Magicians trained in this line, can condense an element to such a degree that it becomes a material power. That's why you can lighten a fire with the help of the fiery element at the greatest distance. At first, practise imaginary drawing a fiery ball down from the universe directly, without having it passed through the body, and compress it to a small bead so much as to grow a glowing spark. Put this spark in a cotton plug which has been soaked in easily inflammable liquids like ether, petrol or alcohol. A second spark is to be prepared, in the same way, with the air-element and, the very moment both sparks are touching the cotton plug, it will catch fire and begin to burn. Having succeeded in this little trick, the magician can make an attempt with the wick of an ordinary candle, and later on with a paraffin-lamp. He can do this near and far."

Like I said before. You can make the claim that Bardon's writings are false and that's a separate issue. I won't argue it because I don't have any proof otherwise. But nobody who claims to believe in his work can argue that anything I've said is false. Bardon clearly states that the abilities I described are possible and he means it literally.
 

Mider2009

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I'm just going by what I've read in Initiation Into Hermetics. You can definitely control people using elementaries. In fact you can make someone think it was their own thoughts and their own choice to do things that you implanted into their mind using an elementary. Essentially controlling them without them even realizing they are being controlled.

The control I'm talking about isn't even bending their will, the control I'm talking about circumvents their will and replaces their will with yours. That's real control because they won't even fight it.

Though I'm sure you could also bend someone to your will too.


I never said magic can "just make you rich", you are kind of being disingenuous right now, I gave very clear and specific examples. If what is written in the book is true, then you can use certain abilities in various ways to very easily get rich.

Now you can argue that what is in the book is false and that's a different argument. I won't argue with you on that because I have no proof either way, I'm still training. But if someone believes what is in the book is true, they cannot disagree with what I've said.

If you can make people want to purchase something you're selling, then you are pretty much guaranteed riches. If you can steal "insider information" without anyone knowing, then you are pretty much guaranteed riches (if you learn how to use that information to make money).

If someone has mastered up to Step 7 in Initiation Into Hermetics they have all of these abilities. I'm not a genius, not even close, and I came up with two easy ways one could use their abilities to become rich very quickly. If you're telling me these master gurus need to sell $1500 courses instead of using their abilities like I described, you are joking.


What makes them a "mage" in your book, what's your criteria or proof?

What feats have you observed them execute in physical reality with your own two eyes?

You see, this is why I like Bardon's writings and I don't trust other occult authors. Bardon speaks about magic as phenomenon that can be observed and tested. Other authors speak about magic like it's something vague and illusory (likely on purpose).

It's very easy to claim you can do something when it can't be observed or tested, and by that note there's no reason to trust such claims.

Bardon is very literal with his description of magic in theory and practice, he speaks about it like it's a science.

I will not take "trust me bro, I'm legit" as proof lol. I don't care about word of mouth either because they could all be in on it. I need to see something that defies reality before my very eyes, and it has to be something that is inexplicable through normal means and can't be attributed to coincidence.


It wouldn't need to fall into his lap. There's so many ways he could use his alleged abilities to make money very quickly. Nobody with legit magic abilities should be selling courses online like some scammer :ROFLMAO:.


I'm open to criticism, I won't take it personally anyways.

The ONLY "realistic expectation" in this technologically advanced modern world is - "Magic doesn't exist".

The moment you begin to walk down the path of magic being a reality, you've ironically already stopped having realistic expectations. Magic at it's core is not a realistic expectation for the world we live in today.

All you are doing right now is arbitrarily drawing a line of separation, when most people today would say you are "crazy" for believing in the occult period.


I find this funny. There are so many old occult writings, even in the Greek Papyrus, that talk about love charms, love spells, etc. Things that force someone to fall in love with you. But all of a sudden magic is incapable of making a model fall in love with a 300 pound man?

Is every occult writing that speaks about love potions and love spells filled with lies then?

It always confuses me how so many of you guys believe in this upside down, endlessly fluctuating "framework" for how "magic" works. It has no consistency, order, or logic to it's rules. It just always conveniently works in a way in which people have to simply believe all magic that cannot be observed or tested.

The unobservable (astral projection, talking to spirits, etc) is always accepted as a possibility, and the observable (moving objects with your mind, creating spontaneous fires, etc) is conveniently always impossible, despite objectively being a lesser feat in comparison to the unobservable.

Many people in forums like this will say that they can literally commune with Gods, Demons, etc, but they can't use their abilities in some way to start making $500 a day? :ROFLMAO: (make that make sense).

This is like me claiming I can do 100 pull ups if nobody is watching, but at the same time I can't do 10 push ups if people are watching. You can't have it both ways. I don't see any consistency is the "framework" for magic that most people talk about online.


Once again, you are drawing a convenient arbitrary line. Literally every feat from astral projection to divination "goes against the established order of nature".

You are just drawing an arbitrary line of where you believe the natural ends and the supernatural begins.

But who decided that line and why should I believe them?


Never made that claim, I was very specific. All I know is if someone tells me they can astral project, but they are a broke wage slave at Mc Donald's who gets verbally abused by their manager everyday, please forgive me for doubting their ability and thinking they are just delusional or lying.

A lot of these people are like parodies from movies. They meet up in person with their various personal artifacts, items, special clothing, etc. Presenting this image that they are so far above the common man, and they are enlightened. Then the next day they go to their office job to be shouted down by an obnoxious boss.

It's like something straight out of a comedy.

I would not even consider myself a true magician if I couldn't use my abilities to escape the mundane limitations of the average man.


Therein lies the problem. How can one claim to have mastery over the elements and yet they can't even be the master of their own path in life. Sounds fishy to me.

Sounds ridiculous to me for someone to claim they can create spontaneous fires, become clairvoyant, etc, but they have no choice but to "work for money" like every other powerless human on the planet.

If your results in life are the same as someone who isn't doing all the occult training you are, then you are literally wasting your time lol.


It's really simple. One either believes Bardon's writings or they don't. Bardon is very literal in his writings, there is no room for interpretation that allows someone to say "he didn't mean that ability was literally possible".

EXAMPLE 1 (Using A Thermometer To Test For Changes In Room Temperature):
Initiation Into Hermetics
Step 5 (V)
Magic Psychic Training 5 (V)
Page 110


EXAMPLE 2 (Lighting A Fire Using Magic):
Initiation Into Hermetics
Step 5 (V)
Magic Psychic Training 5 (V)
Page 114


Like I said before. You can make the claim that Bardon's writings are false and that's a separate issue. I won't argue it because I don't have any proof otherwise. But nobody who claims to believe in his work can argue that anything I've said is false. Bardon clearly states that the abilities I described are possible and he means it literally.
1.Can you give an example of this? I’ve read this but it’s rare

2. Lol...can you tell me how mages became rich? As far as I know Crowley and others were born into wealth, they had good educations.

I mean the books says people turn into animals and such do you believe that too?

3. Hmmm idk, I haven’t seen much magic...I’ve read Dion Fortune and she and other author says the natural order 8s there for a reason. if mages can do all the crap you claim do you see them doing things like transmuting elements just because the book says?


Oh L-rd...I’m trying to read everything you’ve typed but rolled my eyes as tech says magic does t exist...

lighting a fire with magic...WHATTTTT. lmao

you get money by working and having talent...you think if a homeless guy or talentless bum will do a spell and get rich?

anyway sorry for the broken reply I was busy
 
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