Help me with understanding Crowley

[ragingmagus]

Maybe and probably i'm being somewhat judgmental of this man, but i struggle to reconcile many things about him. So prefacing this may be more about me than him, not trying to attack, but understand.

Infact this could be reflective of any person who seems to have achieved great spiritual heights but their life was also characterized by very mundane human failings.

Many people seem to see him as the goat, he seems to have achieved much on his soul journey with big claims like crossing the abyss, and contributed a lot to the western system of magic, but was plagued by many things like opiate addiction, his rent boy addiction, money issues etc.

I struggle to reconcile the idea that he achieved so many things that would require great discipline and wisdom, but couldn't sort out his personal life.

 

[unlight]

there's a copy of MAGICK WITHOUT TEARS edited by Alan Chapman in the forum. The opening section contains his commentary on Crowley (“Is a God to live in a dog?”). You might want to take a look.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

Maybe and probably i'm being somewhat judgmental of this man, but i struggle to reconcile many things about him. So prefacing this may be more about me than him, not trying to attack, but understand.

Infact this could be reflective of any person who seems to have achieved great spiritual heights but their life was also characterized by very mundane human failings.

Many people seem to see him as the goat, he seems to have achieved much on his soul journey with big claims like crossing the abyss, and contributed a lot to the western system of magic, but was plagued by many things like opiate addiction, his rent boy addiction, money issues etc.

I struggle to reconcile the idea that he achieved so many things that would require great discipline and wisdom, but couldn't sort out his personal life.

Crowley didn't understand Crowley. That was a man trapped in self, internally torn, and his many shortcomings were symptoms and manifestations of a much deeper seeded issue. On top of this the man never finished a single ritual, thing, etc etc. Always measure a person by the fruits of their work. Crowley was not a man plagued by trials and tests for being such an adept mystic he was a victim of his self-centeredness and ego, his own ineptitude was why he suffered so frequently. He is by no means a "goat". Notoriety is not the measure for evolution. The man never crossed the abyss, he died an addict which should point out that the man by no means was capable of dissolving his self-hood.

 

[Faria]

achieved great spiritual heights but their life was also characterized by very mundane human failings.

What, in your opinion, would constitute "great spiritual heights?"

Crowley's version of it, in very simple form, is the idea that a person should find and follow their own True Will, the divinely-appointed purpose of their own existence. It may not be spreading love and compassion, it might be something more like building guided missiles or writing poetry and getting laid.

he seems to have achieved much on his soul journey with big claims like crossing the abyss, and contributed a lot to the western system of magic, but was plagued by many things like opiate addiction, his rent boy addiction, money issues etc.

The chief accomplishment of Aleister Crowley is that he laid the foundations of the western cultural revolutions that took place in the 20th Century. He was involved in propaganda and political espionage in both World Wars, was a key figure in the sexual revolution, and his ideas were the inspiration for a large number of thinkers, performers, and influential people.

His personal failures tend to be given a level of focus that, in my opinion, is unwarranted. Find me any 70 yr old heroin addict who could write The Book of Thoth, for example.

He is often said to have died broke and alone. This is not true at all. He lived at a boarding house where famous writers could host lectures. When he arrived, he brought with him a floor-to-ceiling pile of chocolate which was rationed at the time, having sold his book collection to acquire it. He spent his days in the lawn with bunny rabbits and his evenings flirting with the ladies. To say that he was a depraved and troubled person is to overlook most of his life.

I struggle to reconcile the idea that he achieved so many things that would require great discipline and wisdom, but couldn't sort out his personal life.

I heartily recommend reading the Tobias Churton biography of Crowley, as well as the man's own writings. Having a second-hand understanding of his work is not going to accurately represent someone with such a long and complicated career.

 

[Beyond Everything]

- Subject to histrionic fits

- Still helplessly addicted to heroin after he wrote Diary of a Drug Fiend, where he presented Thelema as a 'cure'. I've known non-occultists who managed to have enough willpower to quit Heroin cold turkey and stay off of it, yet this 'Adept' couldn't manage that

- So broke at points he couldn't even afford to buy paper, his money magic didn't work. And it's amusing he even tried money magick, because at other times he counseled one should only do magic to invoke their so-called HGA- so his weltanschauung was pretty muddled.

-Propagated a convoluted system of metapuke (the religion of thelema) that didn't touch on the true human potential- immortalization in the act of transmuting into a higher subtle body. This flies over the head of most, though.

- While he could be a witty and colorful writer at times, he considered himself a superior poet to yeats (lol)

 

[ragingmagus]

Yeah ok, seems like my take was fairly on par with what other see. I guess i never saw what the big deal was.

A brilliant man in many ways, and demonized in the press (and dont we know how full of shit the press is!). But never really got on top of his own demons (step 1 for an Adept). Definitely levels of self delusion and contradiction.

I understand the desire to rebel against the morality of society and ideas of large religious institutions,, but struggle with the idea of chasing every desire to the point of debasement. Having been an addict, and chased a few of my dark desires over time, one could spend lifetimes watering this weed, and i don't think the fruit would be worthwhile. While i dont doubt all paths are valid, this seems like a particularly scenic one with a lot of resulting baggage.

That said the shadow is definitely not to be ignored, we have to harmonize the opposites and incorporate them, but what i see from Thelema is hedonism dressed as spirituality, and Crowleys life seems to embody the result of such works.

 

[FireBorn]

Crowley didn't understand Crowley. That was a man trapped in self, internally torn, and his many shortcomings were symptoms and manifestations of a much deeper seeded issue. On top of this the man never finished a single ritual, thing, etc etc. Always measure a person by the fruits of their work. Crowley was not a man plagued by trials and tests for being such an adept mystic he was a victim of his self-centeredness and ego, his own ineptitude was why he suffered so frequently. He is by no means a "goat". Notoriety is not the measure for evolution. The man never crossed the abyss, he died an addict which should point out that the man by no means was capable of dissolving his self-hood.

Solid response, and much nicer and more eloquent than I am. Great points you brought up, honestly. I normally look at the fruits of a practitioner rather than the person, but Crowley was so loud of a man it is really hard to see past his own bullshit.

His Abyss crossing, I question it. The HGA concept, and his experience with it left me scratching my head, doesn't hold much water. And if that is an example of his path, then I'm out. Too Abrahamic for my taste. Dying alone (or mostly alone) penniless, addicted, full of ego, I dont need magick for any of that. (Yep, I'm a bit jaded, but I will leave room for a bad interpretation on my part. Maybe some day I will circle back to some of his stuff, maybe I will grow into it in a new way, never know.)

Even despite the million holes in all his stuff, he was brilliant, rebellious and irreverent, and I love that. He had some great insights, even if they weren't all his. His whole life didn't suck, its just easy to only see those parts. Trying to be objective here.

That said, there are tons of folks who find themselves following his words and system. I personally follow no system. I tried Thelema for about a year, fuck man, I just struggled with the word mazes and barbs. Truth doesn't require any of that, ego often does. To me there are big things that Thelema doesn't resolve about itself, so I parted ways with it entirely. Again, others find themselves in it and that's amazing. Zero judgement. If it resonates, it resonates. To me, it didn't, it just took me a year to decide.

Love is the law, love under Will is pretty badass though.

**Last thought, Crowley, also Parsons were both great examples of practitioners with all fire and zero grounding. I resonate with that aspect so much. I had to learn how to be grounded so I didn't burn up and flame out like Parsons, or burn so hot that ego takes over like Crowley.

 

[iseht]

My favorite anecdote about Crowley is that a magical duel between him and Yeats ended with Crowley being kicked down the stairs.

That said, I do admire his pragmatism about spiritual practice, he was famously quite zen about certain topics and pushed forth the idea that one should practice for the sake of deepening understanding and not purely to seek results.

I think one could do far worse than starting with a book like Liber 4, but I don't really care much for how his teaching evolved more into Crowleyism than Occultism.

 

[sahgwa]

Crowley didn't understand Crowley. That was a man trapped in self, internally torn, and his many shortcomings were symptoms and manifestations of a much deeper seeded issue. On top of this the man never finished a single ritual, thing, etc etc. Always measure a person by the fruits of their work. Crowley was not a man plagued by trials and tests for being such an adept mystic he was a victim of his self-centeredness and ego, his own ineptitude was why he suffered so frequently. He is by no means a "goat". Notoriety is not the measure for evolution. The man never crossed the abyss, he died an addict which should point out that the man by no means was capable of dissolving his self-hood.

He eventually finished his Abramelin by receiving the Book of the Law - he did the Auogeides ritual prior to the reception. This was all a great building up.
Also he skryed every single Enochian Aetyhr, so to be honest, saying he didnt finish any rituals is very disingenious.

Did he have flaws?
Of course, we all do.
I never met the man, but there is a difference between his early and later writings, his earlier and later teachings. They are constantly gaining clarity, insight, and humour.

I think No one can really judge if he (or anyone else has) properly Crossed the Abyss or not , except for him (or themselves).
Especially since we are not engaging with him in daily life.

I like to say, our 'base Sephiroth' changes with evolution and Work, but we are all capable of being 'devolved' temporarily or in our mundane life, but I think the 'rubber band' snaps back to our Attainment. If it is true.

 

[pruner_tipster]

Im not defending Crowley. Since the conversation here seems to be intensely one sided, I’ll drop this book to offer a different perspective

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[deci belle]

I struggle to reconcile the idea that he achieved so many things that would require great discipline and wisdom, but couldn't sort out his personal life.

Huh? Just look in a mirror. How is that any different than yourself? I am glad I was able to clarify this for you.

 

[Johny111]

Crowley as a person is completely irrelevant, and there is much that can be criticized about him. However, his significance lies in the fact that he ended up in the role of an instrument of certain occult forces. Therefore, I believe that as a person he should be completely ignored and the focus should be on his inspired writings.

 

[sahgwa]

Crowley as a person is completely irrelevant, and there is much that can be criticized about him. However, his significance lies in the fact that he ended up in the role of an instrument of certain occult forces. Therefore, I believe that as a person he should be completely ignored and the focus should be on his inspired writings.

Exactly
We are all human shells with faults but he was a very complex person whose teachings helped a great many during and after his life.

This is not guru worship, it's recognition of self and overcoming the psyche.

If he was unable to give up heroin, a medication prescribed to him, it's because at the time there was no medication to help wean him. This means nothing for his ultimate soul work. In my opinion.

He often viewed himself as nothing but a channel, albeit a well experienced one

 

[frater_pan]

Crowley was the prophet of Thelema and became an advanced Magus. However it also appears (to me, IMO) that he did not actually accomplish the final attainment that he could have. So, IMO, he could have attained/accomplished more. But he DID accomplish his basic task in that incarnation of being a prophet.

 

[Johny111]

We are all human shells with faults but he was a very complex person whose teachings helped a great many during and after his life.

This is not guru worship, it's recognition of self and overcoming the psyche.

He often viewed himself as nothing but a channel, albeit a well experienced one

Something similar could be said about Dr. John Dee. His life was a complete failure, but let's look at his legacy: it is something invaluable and extraordinary. Crowley's and Dee's legacies are often trivialized today, but their influence on the occult is significant. Let's see how H.P. Lovecraft influenced the imagination of the modern world, and he was, in a psychological sense, an extremely questionable person. He too was a channel for manifesting something from the 'other side.'

 

[Accipeveldare]

Maybe and probably i'm being somewhat judgmental of this man, but i struggle to reconcile many things about him. So prefacing this may be more about me than him, not trying to attack, but understand.

Infact this could be reflective of any person who seems to have achieved great spiritual heights but their life was also characterized by very mundane human failings.

Many people seem to see him as the goat, he seems to have achieved much on his soul journey with big claims like crossing the abyss, and contributed a lot to the western system of magic, but was plagued by many things like opiate addiction, his rent boy addiction, money issues etc.

I struggle to reconcile the idea that he achieved so many things that would require great discipline and wisdom, but couldn't sort out his personal life.

On his drug addiction. I recall in a writing of his, (i dont have an exact quote) I believe it was Diary of a Drug fiend. He even explains how someone with his spiritual achievements could get so addicted and warned against addiction. He was reportedly very disturbed by how strong the urge was to have more drugs. Which is a sign he was still in his observer conciousness at the time and not in the reaction conciousness. He kept taking the drugs because without them, for lack of a better term; felt like absolute shit without them due to withdrawals. He originally started using opiates under the intention of incorporating them into his spiritual works in a time where they were very much legal where he lived. He could not have known how bad they were until it was already too late. He fell to the very thing he warned about, and then he continued to warn about it till the end of his days. Nevertheless, every occultist has shortcomings, id assume even ones who has Crossed ths Abyss. His works are still very much valid and I believe if used correctly are very beneficial.

 

[MorganBlack]

Heh. That we are still talking about Crowley is what he wanted.

'Ex' O.T.O. here and more grim trad since the 1990's. I am still what I think of as "small-t" Thelemite. I was never a member of the A∴A∴, so I defer to those within that tradition to speak on it from their own experience. So this is my take and observations only.

I highly recommend reading Crowley through a Chaos Magic "meta-model" - which I don’t feel he would find objectionable. It helps avoid these neo-religous "magical" debates. In the mid 1990s, I was a member of the local body and was chatting casually with Fr. Dionysus about Chaos Magic. He felt the whole Peter Carroll oeuvre is essentially Crowley with the mythopoetic "Thelemic" symbolism and mythic characters removed. And I agree.

See the opening of Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae.

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If you who have only read Aleister Crowley's writing, let me add the "boots-on-the-ground" expression in Thelemic culture is much more light-handed than his writing appears. Some of the coolest people and magicians I have met are in the O.T.O., and I found instant acceptance and camaraderie. (yes there are some crazy loons, but that is true of all groups). Goetia and sorcery is my jam, and the Order is more a fraternity, so I had to leave , because i had stuff I needed to do and attend to at the time (and did, often by applying Thelemic "force-and-fire" principles) . But I adore those folks.

Although I have been more "grim-trad" since the late 1990s (with a Zen Buddhist and Folk Catholic mystical practice), I highly recommend reading Crowley for a very deep mythopoetic and practical framework. It is not necessary to take it literally. There has been a push online to turn the "Thelemic pantheon" into more neopagan gods, which is fine, but it totally acceptable to treat them as "mathematical expressions" in the universe. The whole famework is very felxible.

--------------------------------

Speaking more personally, The Book of the Law is pretty great.

I highly recommend the English Qaballa of Jim Lees' group, including Cath Thompson’s writing and Jake Stratton-Kent’s The Serpent Tongue for a very - words fail here - sublime vision of Liber AL. I am also not suggesting you take it as literally true, just that it "speaks" to us through whatever Aiwass is, by way of Rose Edith Kelly. I will say, reading parts of JSK's book, I had a mystical vision - and however you think of that is fine here - that put me into an ecstatic, joyful state for three whole days.

And then there is the A∴A∴, which uses a "buddy system" but can also be done without one. It is a pretty grat format to structure your training. At a certain point, once you have "trained" your emotions (Yesod) and your intellect/mind (Hod), in my opinion, you sort of need to move on to something more flavorful, emotional, and personal (Netzach). I leave than an open question if that is needed for the HGA experince.

Crowley taught me what he called "energized enthusiasm," which I see as total immersion, with your whole being, into ritual so you "get caught up" in it, with your all. Then the daimons show up. For me, this happened using the Grimorium Verum. They showed up, did crazy cool stuff, like walking through walls, and hanging out. You will be glad for the yoga and meditation when they do.

--------------

At the grade of Philosophus (4=7),which is associated with the sphere of Netzach, one might look toward Liber Astarte vel Berylli for when it's time to 'make something your own' - and which can also be totally outside the Thelemic "pantheon." Nobody in the OTO I knew expected you to "stay on the farm." If they do, odds are they are one of the terminally online dummies trying to herd you. Ignore them.

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Philosophus (4° = 7) - Associated with the sphere of Netzach .

I detoured from the HGA (Holy Guardian Angel) into the sublunar world, and the world of passions, but I also wanted to. But I came back. A bit of Jung fits here: Life itself IS initiation. You are always on the road to individuation. Thelema just gives you a decent map for it.

(I will say it does not have a well-developed sublunar theology, like you find in Vodou, Goetia, or Catholicism, but that was not really Crowley's concern. He was a mystic, not a sorcerer, and - frankly had nothing useful to add to Goetia. So to turnt o him as an authoruity here is like asking a Catholic priest for advice on sex. They maybe did it once or twice, , but not really their thing. )

Oh. And Liber ASTARTE for when it's time to make something you own, which can also be outside the Thelemic "pantheon. " Nobody in the OTO I knew expected you to "stay on the farm". If they do, oddd are theya are one of the dummies trying are trying to herd you. Ignore them.

Liber Astarte vel Berylli

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[Firetree]

What a great post ^ . A lot in there very relevant ( well, to me anyway - especially the OTO bits and comments on rituals ) .

Here is a snippet for you 'young ones' I knew a guy that was in one of Crowey's circles ( sort of ) . He was a mate of John Symonds

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I first met him when I was reading tarot at the local markets ; he stopped, started staring and then complained '' You should not be using those cards ! They are Crowley's cards ... he was ( blah blah blah ... lots of negative and , actually, weird stuff )'' . And then sat down and asked for a reading ! I got to know him over time as he would come back for more . He was one of the first people to play around with a radionics machine . Back then ( 25 ya ) he was very old . He met AC as a young fellah . Story ;

''I was hanging out at Symonds place and he said ''I have to go and see The Beast about something . Do you want to come and meet him ? '' I said yes, but John advised I should not go there , not knowing him, without a present ... a bottle of scotch would do fine . So I took a bottle , and back then I also had some hash , so I took this decent sized block of hash with me . Expecting a drink I didnt get one , Crowley took the bottle at the door and placed it on a shelf and never opened it . After a while I suggested we smoke some hash , Crowley agreed enthusiastically. Some time after that he started raving about some plant in the garden , totally off topic and insisted we come out and looked at it . He rambled on out there , said his goodbyes and ushered us off and we left . He seemed confused and I thought the old bloke was loosing it . When I got home , I realized .... '' My big block of hash ! ... Its still sitting on Crowley's table ! Was he being absent minded or did he plan that whole move ?

'' Some time later as I was passing by I decided to call in by myself and went and knocked on the door . He opened the door and looked at me curiously and I asked ' Do you remember me ? I came here about a week ago with John ?' He glared at me and said , '' Yes ... did you bring anymore scotch ?'' I said 'No' and he shut the door in my face ! ''

- old Arthur still seemed pissed off about all that

 

[MorganBlack]

I never met the man, but there is a difference between his early and later writings, his earlier and later teachings.

Yes! Exactly. Thank you for saying this. I've noticed the same thing. Many miss it. Crowley the Elder writing Magic Without Tears is a much better and wiser person than Crowley the Young hanging with Leah Hirsig at Cefalu. If you are not fundamentally changed by your practice for the better, really, WTF?

 

[frater_pan]

Yes! Exactly. Thank you for saying this. I've noticed the same thing. Many miss it. Crowley the Elder writing Magic Without Tears is a much better and wiser person than Crowley the Young hanging with Leah Hirsig at Cefalu. If you are not fundamentally changed by your practice for the better, really, WTF?

Crowley was a master Magus. But even though he defined "Union with G-D" as samadhi, and recognized different levels ad types of samadhi, he wasn't terribly accomplished in samadhi judging by his extremely emotional reactions to the antics of various people (some of this can be dismissed as a Zen master can demonstrate anger or any emotion to guide their student, but some of these reactions, which seem like uncontrolled emotional reactions in ordinary people, seem genuine). Frankly I was disappointed in "John St. John" to find that Crowley had such a low bar for attainment since samadhi is relatively easy. OTOH it is true that if more people were able to enter or even meditate well, we would have much less conflict. But we would still need some ongoing effective Jupiter-Sun-Mercury rituals to transform humanity and set people on a constructive path to peace and prosperity.