[Help] How to punish an avoidant as you know it

[Hund]

Punishing somebody is easy, but for an avoidant i finding out it's quite hard.
Which processes an avoidant should go in order to make them regret (and you notice it).

I was obsessed about that girl a month ago and i let it go. Now i look at this situation as an experiment, an opportunity for being a better practitioner.
As far as I understand, you need to change the person’s perception of value—the difference between the cost and the value of a bond needs to be altered. And it needs to be done surgically, in a way that makes sense specifically within the context of that bond. For example, if I were doing it to her, it would have to be based specifically on the bond between her and myself.

Also there's a common problem with love magick. People are stupid. It takes an annoying amount of time to realize their own feelings if they are a regular person.
How to make this stuff more.. noticable? to themselves?

 

[Nembra]

You want to punish someone for not reciprocating your obsession? Or are you trying to get her to love you? Either way it sounds downright evil.

 

[ahathoor]

Lol, posted "Today at 4:20 PM"... is that a sign from Dionysus what you would be far better off doing than working curses?

(Regardless what one thinks of weed, it's still better than cursing people.)

 

[Nembra]

Lol, posted "Today at 4:20 PM"... is that a sign from Dionysus what you would be far better off doing than working curses?

(Regardless what one thinks of weed, it's still better than cursing people.)

We must be in the same time zone.

 

[BBMage]

Trying to change another person never ends well. I've seen people use magic to control others. At some point it breaks down and things explode into chaos. The real issue doesn't get addressed and then the cycle repeats. Beat the cycle! Instead, look at what the experience with that person is showing you about yourself and do the inner work. Let the person do whatever they are going to do. It's not your job to change them.

 

[Hund]

You want to punish someone for not reciprocating your obsession? Or are you trying to get her to love you? Either way it sounds downright evil.

Lol, posted "Today at 4:20 PM"... is that a sign from Dionysus what you would be far better off doing than working curses?

(Regardless what one thinks of weed, it's still better than cursing people.)

apparently i got misunderstood.
I'm not obsessed nor looking for revenge right now.
I know two people must love each other etc.

But I did everything in my live via magick. I was in a relationship for two and a half years, and the reason it lasted that long was also because of my skills. I'm not a person that accepts reality as-is.

Anyways this avoidant girl is a different person and I want help just because i'm making an autopsy on what happened.
I genuinely can’t understand how an avoidant thinks.
I have absolutely no tolerance for human will and chronic stupidity, which is why I always resort to this with the people around me.

That's what i am.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 7:56 AM

I know it smells god complex and stuff, I'm not looking for judgement. I'm looking for R&D

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 8:01 AM

Trying to change another person never ends well. I've seen people use magic to control others. At some point it breaks down and things explode into chaos. The real issue doesn't get addressed and then the cycle repeats. Beat the cycle! Instead, look at what the experience with that person is showing you about yourself and do the inner work. Let the person do whatever they are going to do. It's not your job to change them.

Yeah i did the inner work first. I accept everybody from my past and my past as-is. But it's not an excuse to improve myself further on this skill set.

 

[Nembra]

I'm sorry, maybe that came off as a bit undeservedly judgmental.

But I did everything in my live via magick. I was in a relationship for two and a half years, and the reason it lasted that long was also because of my skills. I'm not a person that accepts reality as-is.

You see, that's the thing. One of the things that makes love strong is that both sides feel chosen in complete freedom. By deliberately manipulating your chosen's mind outside of their consent you are planting rot within your own heart. How long can you convince yourself that there is a real, genuine relation if you're essentially playing both sides? How quickly will it start to feel like spiritual masturbation with something that was never really a person in your eyes? Human will is what makes them worth loving in the first place.

 

[Hund]

I'm sorry, maybe that came off as a bit undeservedly judgmental.

You see, that's the thing. One of the things that makes love strong is that both sides feel chosen in complete freedom. By deliberately manipulating your chosen's mind outside of their consent you are planting rot within your own heart. How long can you convince yourself that there is a real, genuine relation if you're essentially playing both sides? How quickly will it start to feel like spiritual masturbation with something that was never really a person in your eyes? Human will is what makes them worth loving in the first place.

NGL i believe the world is just a theather.
I don't believe that freedom, or truly ultimate emotions, actually exist in this world. Soulmates and all that—I think it's just a fairy tale. Emotions exist, and people are capable of experiencing them. I experience them too. I'm following this path because it gives me the freedom to choose who I want to experience the things I desire with.
I can understand why do you think it's like spritual masturbation. But, y'know, everybody works to live, everybody's work is for their own desires regardless what or how they do it.
To me this practices are like brewing alcohol and drinking it.

I don't believe that something stops being a genuine emotion simply because I was the one who made it happen. An emotion either exists or it doesn't. There is no such thing as a “fake” emotion—if it's an emotion, then it's real. And everything we do is ultimately meant to bring about some kind of emotion.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 8:32 AM

Maybe it's simply what I've experienced in life that led me to think this way, but either way, this perspective fits naturally within this philosophy. And I think it's something that can be perfectly acceptable in a person—and more specifically, in a magician.

 

[Nembra]

NGL i believe the world is just a theather.
I don't believe that freedom, or truly ultimate emotions, actually exist in this world. Soulmates and all that—I think it's just a fairy tale. Emotions exist, and people are capable of experiencing them. I experience them too. I'm following this path because it gives me the freedom to choose who I want to experience the things I desire with.

You don't believe in freedom yet you are pursuing it?

I can understand why do you think it's like spritual masturbation. But, y'know, everybody works to live, everybody's work is for their own desires regardless what or how they do it.
To me this practices are like brewing alcohol and drinking it.

Desires are not ultimate. They react to will, intellect and circumstance, and can be bent into instruments of purpose. Spiritual, I said, not emotional.

I don't believe that something stops being a genuine emotion simply because I was the one who made it happen. An emotion either exists or it doesn't. There is no such thing as a “fake” emotion—if it's an emotion, then it's real. And everything we do is ultimately meant to bring about some kind of emotion.

In the grand landscape of human existence, emotions are but a puddle you can look at your reflection in. To be loved is not to have someone feel some emotions about you. To be loved is to be an object of a soverign act of will.

Maybe it's simply what I've experienced in life that led me to think this way, but either way, this perspective fits naturally within this philosophy. And I think it's something that can be perfectly acceptable in a person—and more specifically, in a magician.

I'm not judging you on ethical grounds, I don't believe in any nebulous criteria of broadly applicable acceptability.

 

[Hund]

You don't believe in freedom yet you are pursuing it?

oh yeah, totally. because i think there's no other option, Sisyphus stuff.

In the grand landscape of human existence, emotions are but a puddle you can look at your reflection in. To be loved is not to have someone feel some emotions about you. To be loved is to be an object of a soverign act of will.

That's a beautiful answer. I definitely used to think the way you do, just as you said, and honestly, thinking that way is a really beautiful thing. But at the same time, for someone to actually be able to do this of their own free will, the timing, the circumstances, and the person all have to be right, and that's basically like winning the lottery.
Being lucky enough to come across something like that is a huge privilege, and I genuinely envy the people who do. I don't think I'll ever be one of them. The more people I meet, the more I see the ridiculous things they do, and the more I realize it's a global thing, I don't know... I just adapt to it. It's not just my personal experiences—my observations haven't led me astray either, and that's usually what pushes me toward this way of thinking.

I'm not unattractive, either physically or as a person, and I'm certainly not too unattractive to be loved. But having a plan and approaching things like that is just more... me.

Besides, you know, even that kind of love—the kind that makes you feel almost sick with emotion, something beyond ordinary love or affection—can be artificially created through these methods. So... why not?

 

[Nembra]

oh yeah, totally. because i think there's no other option, Sisyphus stuff.


That's a beautiful answer. I definitely used to think the way you do, just as you said, and honestly, thinking that way is a really beautiful thing. But at the same time, for someone to actually be able to do this of their own free will, the timing, the circumstances, and the person all have to be right, and that's basically like winning the lottery.

Then it's the one lottery actually worth winning. Win it. You're a magician for something, aren't you?

I'm not unattractive, either physically or as a person, and I'm certainly not too unattractive to be loved. But having a plan and approaching things like that is just more... me.

It's not a very good heist plan if it involves destroying the target, isn't it?

Besides, you know, even that kind of love—the kind that makes you feel almost sick with emotion, something beyond ordinary love or affection—can be artificially created through these methods. So... why not?

But it's not that kind of love. It's the kind of love that perserveres and brings happiness even when the emotions dry up completely because it's rooted in will not fickle feelings. This one is truly precious and unfalsifiable.

 

[Hund]

It's not a very good heist plan if it involves destroying the target, isn't it?

I rarely destroy my targets. There's no point being in destroying.
You know, you meet someone, you like them, and little by little, you climb the steps of a relationship together.
They get to know you better, you get to know them better, and throughout that process, you're accompanied by all these beautiful feelings.
All I'm doing is making it easier for them to experience those beautiful feelings with me.
Sometimes I just make them think positively about me, or make sure I cross their mind every now and then when they're at home by themselves.
Sometimes I just make them feel horny for me. And so on. If it looks like someone else is about to come into their life, I cut that off.
Basically, I'm taking things that would normally happen in a relationship and applying them almost like a script, and it works. I know it sounds really psychopatic. But it is what it is.
I never actually got into curses or anything like that. That's actually kind of why this whole subject came up in the first place.

Then it's the one lottery actually worth winning. Win it. You're a magician for something, aren't you?

You really have a way of speaking that could move hearts. When i think about it, what my general approach is the thing you talk about, but formulated. And I think figuring out the whole avoidant thing would be a pretty useful addition to my toolkit as well.

 

[Nembra]

I rarely destroy my targets.

The target is their free choice. Do you think of yourself so little to believe that the truth about you is not worth deciding to love? Do you think so little of others to manipulate them into a relationship they wouldn't otherwise choose? Is this alchemical simulacrum really satisfying enough not to pursue the real thing? If feelings are all there is then I genuinely have no idea what stands between you and heroin. Maybe I'm a bit exalted right now, but this is honestly some really interesting levels of nihilism. Most people at least try to convince themselves they believe in something vaguely spiritual.

You really have a way of speaking that could move hearts. When i think about it, what my general approach is the thing you talk about, but formulated. And I think figuring out the whole avoidant thing would be a pretty useful addition to my toolkit as well.

Thanks. I'm not sure what do you mean by avoidant. AvPD is not the kind of diagnosis I'd trust myself with.

 

[Dyn Hysbys]

The tendency to diagnose others is a fundamental problem here. Avoidant according to whom? Self diagnosis is incredibly shaky ground to start with.
Also, respecting the autonomy of others is fundamental to healthy relating.

 

[Hund]

Do you think so little of others to manipulate them into a relationship they wouldn't otherwise choose?

Yes, i do. I know lack of control won't necessarily kill me—it can still lead to results. But if I want something, there's no reason to leave it up to a coin flip. idk

If feelings are all there is then I genuinely have no idea what stands between you and heroin. Maybe I'm a bit exalted right now, but this is honestly some really interesting levels of nihilism. Most people at least try to convince themselves they believe in something vaguely spiritual.

I think being able to accept things as they are is much easier when you're actually satisfied with what you have. I don't think it's really about being exalted; I think it's more about where you are in life and how satisfied you are with your current situation.

I went through a phase where I thought exactly the same way you do.

I'm not sure what do you mean by avoidant

People who have conditioned themselves to weigh the costs of a relationship far more heavily than its value.
At least, that's my conclusion from it. I suppose you could also say they're people who never learned how to appreciate the value of a relationship.

The tendency to diagnose others is a fundamental problem here. Avoidant according to whom? Self diagnosis is incredibly shaky ground to start with.
Also, respecting the autonomy of others is fundamental to healthy relating.

The act of diagnosing someone is already problematic in itself, even with the help of a professional. Psychology is still a very young field—barely 150 years old.

But I still can't grow without trying to understand these things.

What I'm doing is definitely not considered healthy by most people.
I don't think it really matters whether it's considered healthy or not. I'm not getting sick from doing it, and it's not going to kill me.

 

[Nembra]

Yes, i do. I know lack of control won't necessarily kill me—it can still lead to results. But if I want something, there's no reason to leave it up to a coin flip. idk

Why even want this manufactured love though?

I went through a phase where I thought exactly the same way you do.

Doubtful. My perspective seems to contain much of yours. Though I suppose people do sometimes diminish with time.

People who have conditioned themselves to weigh the costs of a relationship far more heavily than its value.
At least, that's my conclusion from it. I suppose you could also say they're people who never learned how to appreciate the value of a relationship.

Oh, but that's just feelings all over again, only this time you're doing the opposite fallacy. To a person with such predisposition attachments feel indistinguishably from chores (I'd know something about that). To actually form a relationship they need to find will and conviction radically independent from their feelings and choose to live with some level of occasional emotional suffering. Something you yourself don't exactly seem willing to do, by the way.

 

[Hund]

Why even want this manufactured love though?

to have fun, make life much more enjoyable. like i said, brewing and alcohol. we're living after all. why not make it better.

Doubtful. My perspective seems to contain much of yours. Though I suppose people do sometimes diminish with time.

wow

Oh, but that's just feelings all over again, only this time you're doing the opposite fallacy. To a person with such predisposition attachments feel indistinguishably from chores (I'd know something about that). To actually form a relationship they need to find will and conviction radically independent from their feelings and choose to live with some level of occasional emotional suffering.

Yes, now we're getting somewhere.

The things I'm doing and am capable of doing aren't only emotions in the first place. But I'm starting to get a better idea from you about where exactly I need to intervene. How do you think this kind of mindset is actually built, i mean the "will and conviction".

Something you yourself don't exactly seem willing to do, by the way.

yes.

 

[Nembra]

The things I'm doing and am capable of doing aren't only emotions in the first place. But I'm starting to get a better idea from you about where exactly I need to intervene. How do you think this kind of mindset is actually built, i mean the "will and conviction".

Well, as all healthy things, the willingness to self-secrifice for what's important it is built by becoming a better person. By that I don't mean the usual moralism. I mean literally more of a person, as in "made in God's image to rule over all of creation". Of course this doesn't help you all that much, because this also comes with all kinds of favors including discernment, and let's be honest - you have much to be discerned.

Generally speaking people with the avoidant attachment style will certainly be put off by being obsessed over or manipulated, and they're often very hypersensitive about that. I mean, you're intense enough to literally cast enchantments to make people like you. Frankly I'd catch that from a mile away, and I'm really on the healthier side.

 

[Hund]

Well, as all healthy things, the willingness to self-secrifice for what's important it is built by becoming a better person. By that I don't mean the usual moralism. I mean literally more of a person, as in "made in God's image to rule over all of creation". Of course this doesn't help you all that much, because this also comes with all kinds of favors including discernment, and let's be honest - you have much to be discerned.

This is a much more useful way of looking at it, and it helps me form a more coherent idea of what those necessary virtues should actually look like. But I think the reason behind the sacrifice matters too. I'm not going to turn her into a saint just for the sake of it, after all. But I think the point that needs to be touched is starting to become clearer.

Generally speaking people with the avoidant attachment style will certainly be put off by being obsessed over or manipulated, and they're often very hypersensitive about that. I mean, you're intense enough to literally cast enchantments to make people like you. Frankly I'd catch that from a mile away, and I'm really on the healthier side.

I'm sure there are people who are like that, but in my subject's case, there seems to be a pattern where their own goals and motivations outweigh everything else, along with the belief that a relationship is never really necessary under any circumstances, and that having one would only mean taking on a loss.

And honestly, with my subject in particular, this doesn't seem to apply only to romantic relationships. It's the same with everyone—with people in general.

 

[MinaAnd23as]

Might I suggest therapy?
The other person is going to do what they want in what they think is their own best interest. Perhaps you should let them. Use your energy to find someone else who reciprocates your energy. It's not worth trying to override another person's free will. Just my two cents.