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Is it true that occultists are supposed to know even the inconvenient secrets of the world?

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As above.
As for myself, I'm interested in everything that mainstream hides from people, so I risk being lumped with conspiracy theorists, but I don't care, as I would read from every political sources, whether left or right.
Am I a bad person for being interested in this?
I would be interested in magic, alchemy or how to interpret fantasy books, if given opportunities.
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Still waiting...
 
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Fr. Maximagus

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New Thought (NT) is fucking rad, dude. It was Chaos Magic long before Chaos Magic. And I increasingly suspect NT is the ur-daddy and little secret of so much of the modern stuff. No real slam . It's pretty great.

Neville is the coolest and best, imho. If only because he keepd it super simple, without alot of uneceassy additions (in that system) like "energy" and "vibes".

I have some old Rosicrucian books from the 1920's that talk about NT was massively popular back then, and had been for some time. Memories being so short, I think what maybe happened is American mind metaphysics jumped the Atlantic, hybridized with British pastoral Victorian age "pagan" community theater, and birthed a whole bunch of new things like Wicca, that then came back over here repackaged.

We were sold our own stuff back to us as the Pure Faith. Basically they just added a bunch of European fairy tales to spice up European imaginations. All fine, if that stuff floats your boat. . Crowley, Gardner, LaVey, what they were... were artists.

Israel Regardie was writing all about Goddard as early as his 1946 book (below) . I think it was just the commonly accepted practice of the time, that we forgot because of the interruption of WW II.

do you think that ceremonial magick or NT is more effective and why?

Meaning which do you think gives better, more consistent results?

I had the same feeling when i stumbled across neville…that he basically deconstructed magick before chaos magicians were a thing lol
 

MorganBlack

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Fr. Maximagus, I think they are both effective, but take different routes.

A small preamble.

I really hate making what sound like truth claims, so take these as what they are: me attempting to describe my experiences, rather than any final word on the practices themselves, or the ultimate nature of reality.

Expanding on my thoughts from the 'What New Age gets right' thread:

OK. I got good at magic (meaning sorcery) by surviving , and helping those who I did sorcery for, to survive the many psychopaths found among the corporate armies of the undead, defeating numerous nazghul , and a legit balrog or two. The only comparable situation I can think to perfect one's Arte might be in being a service magician (brujo, sorcerer, boko) on staff for a drug cartel, or maybe in prison. Fighting evil with evil, fire with fire.

For those who have not worked with them, demons (daimons, imho) often work like intelligent “spells”. Whereas, as far as I can tell, New Thought simply... sort of shifts everything at once one day when you're not looking. It's cool and honestly shocks the fuck out of me more.

It's a little hard to communicate the difference without an example from IRL.

Around 2005, my girlfriend at the time worked in a hostile corporate environment, and was being maliciously attacked by one of her office frenemies to drive her out. To protect her, I used it as an opportunity to use a classic spiritual subjugation working. I gave the demon instructions to make them "sit down" and continue until the danger was eliminated.

At first it manifested effects in the target emotionally, such as self-doubt. But being a psychopath, I suspect, they shrugged that emotional attack off. Per my original charge to the demon, which one of the Legion I do not remember, they then escalated the attack so the psycho was driven to distraction by petty accidents, so much so they were often out of the office. Eventually it made them very sick so they left. Problem solved.

If my girlfriend's attacker had been a person with normal emotions they would have just been made to sit down, and take a breather, and been under my thumb. In my view this is the problem with demons. They are relentless and inclined to overkill. Now I tend to only use them when you need an extreme push at a specific place. A whack with a hammer. I tool very useful to have in one's kit.

With New Thought the effect is like “poof” – suddenly reality shifts and it's just not a problem anymore. Like, don't whack the car… just get a new car.

And I ain't no New Thought master, but it seems like effects in a sort of generalized way, closer to archangels. Good stuff!

But for a while it sort of weirded me out far more than Lovecraftian critters showing up in my living room to do some business.
 

FireBorn

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Point point! I sometimes half-joke NT is Folk Mysticism rather than Folk Magic.
I dont think its a half joke at all. In fact it should probably be its own thread. I mean wear a hard hat if you make it though haha. Its a much deeper conversation than most realize.

Hard to find a way to have that discussion without making it look like you are lessening magick or mysticism. I have not had success with it as of yet. People get touchy, and I get why. I am nowhere near eloquent enough to broach it without ruffling feathers. This is not a topic that needs my style of feather ruffling lol.
 

Fr. Maximagus

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Fr. Maximagus, I think they are both effective, but take different routes.

A small preamble.

I really hate making what sound like truth claims, so take these as what they are: me attempting to describe my experiences, rather than any final word on the practices themselves, or the ultimate nature of reality.

Expanding on my thoughts from the 'What New Age gets right' thread:

OK. I got good at magic (meaning sorcery) by surviving , and helping those who I did sorcery for, to survive the many psychopaths found among the corporate armies of the undead, defeating numerous nazghul , and a legit balrog or two. The only comparable situation I can think to perfect one's Arte might be in being a service magician (brujo, sorcerer, boko) on staff for a drug cartel, or maybe in prison. Fighting evil with evil, fire with fire.

For those who have not worked with them, demons (daimons, imho) often work like intelligent “spells”. Whereas, as far as I can tell, New Thought simply... sort of shifts everything at once one day when you're not looking. It's cool and honestly shocks the fuck out of me more.

It's a little hard to communicate the difference without an example from IRL.

Around 2005, my girlfriend at the time worked in a hostile corporate environment, and was being maliciously attacked by one of her office frenemies to drive her out. To protect her, I used it as an opportunity to use a classic spiritual subjugation working. I gave the demon instructions to make them "sit down" and continue until the danger was eliminated.

At first it manifested effects in the target emotionally, such as self-doubt. But being a psychopath, I suspect, they shrugged that emotional attack off. Per my original charge to the demon, which one of the Legion I do not remember, they then escalated the attack so the psycho was driven to distraction by petty accidents, so much so they were often out of the office. Eventually it made them very sick so they left. Problem solved.

If my girlfriend's attacker had been a person with normal emotions they would have just been made to sit down, and take a breather, and been under my thumb. In my view this is the problem with demons. They are relentless and inclined to overkill. Now I tend to only use them when you need an extreme push at a specific place. A whack with a hammer. I tool very useful to have in one's kit.

With New Thought the effect is like “poof” – suddenly reality shifts and it's just not a problem anymore. Like, don't whack the car… just get a new car.

And I ain't no New Thought master, but it seems like effects in a sort of generalized way, closer to archangels. Good stuff!

But for a while it sort of weirded me out far more than Lovecraftian critters showing up in my living room to do some business.
Idk why but I love that daemons are relentless and "inclined to overkill".

That's just exactly the kind of friend I wanna have on speed dial ya know? Lol
 

MorganBlack

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Hard to find a way to have that discussion without making it look like you are lessening magick or mysticis

I hear ya'.
I am speaking from a New World sorcery perspective. I was just writing this in another thread...

I don't want to erase other views, and I know from the 10,000 sephira view it's a bit of an artificial distinction, but ir can be a useful lens down here.

I wish this operative model was totally original to me. It precedes me in New World sorcery traditions. When a Haitian bokor talks about "magic" (pronounced "mah-jee") what they mean by that looks pretty much nothing like most Anglophone magic folks think of when using the same word.

And what they mean by "witchcraft" looks nothing like modern pagan "wishcraft."

It may have some classical pedigree. Again these are a bit artificial, but in practice it's useful to separate:
1. getting shit done
from
2. "the spiritual practices I do to prepare myself to get shit done"

Magic-Sorcery is deeply chthonic.
See Stephen Skinner's Michael Psellus on the Operation of Daemons
"The classical Greek view however is that the demons occupy the space between the heavens and earth, and are therefore sub-lunurary or under the Moon."

I don't know if the causal agent of American mind mysticism works at this level . Maybe? Either way , most of the people who are practicing either modern pagan "wishcraft" or the more normie-looking NT, do not think of them as chthonic, which suits me just fine.
 

AlfrunGrima

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Both the original discussion and the off topic discussion are good. @MorganBlack what would you say about a seperate thread about new thought? It is woven into all the topics you start and reply on. Perhaps it deserves a well discussed eloquent topic on its own, direct magic is a thing. (Fireborn is right)

For the original discussion a few cents. If you post on social media a clickbait link about a secret (true or not) people certainly will click on it. People kind of thrive on the things that have the appearance of being a secret. One could say it is a natural thing of humans. That makes it very appealing to want to read things that are forbidden, taboo or obscure. Not everyone practice what he/she is reading, luckily. So in most cases, it is not a real problem. But, I have to admit, there are some with a violent deformed worldview because or reading the wrong things while they were not stable enough to stand the information. From an occultist who is seeking balanced knowledge one can expect that he or she is stable enough do deal with obscure information... but we all know, from time to time, we see weirdos here. And they are self proclaimed occultist too.

For the people who are spreading conspiracy theories, sorry that I say it in such an unfriendly way, they are getting a dick pick from it. It is all ego to spread such information and knowing that people will click on it and read it. And in a lot of cases, they have found a way to earn money with it.(think of Willem Engel)

I think it is good to know more than the average people, but people don't always like that you have knowledge and be a well-read person. Few of them can experience you as a real threat when they discover it. I personally have experienced hatred because of that. Or they did see me as an elitist, which I am not.
 
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