[Help] Is joining the catholic church worth it for protection in the working with infernal spirits?

[Nembra]

What does this mean? You are entirely vague. Contextualize clairvoyance for us in the catechism.

I'm, yet again, of critical stance on the Catechism, but for example the snippet you quoted seems to contain a justification that covers only specific subsection of the semantic breadth the prohibited practices encompass. One can (and I think should) read it as a prohibition of only those forms of those practices that the justification applies to. The book's all like that - generalised, often dumbed-down rules, very useful for the general public but sacrificing much nuance and logical consistency, often unnecessarily so.

Yes, see that's very convenient and allows one to completely jettision their brain and intuition. Whereas my argument is that people who pray as catholics, who drench themselves in catholic energies and then behave in whatever manner are being influenced by those christian egregores. Which include centuries of esoteric suppression. It's a product of christianity. Something like that doesn't go on for 1500 years without being a feature. It isnt an anomaly. But other people wont to shut their eyes tight and pretend it's 'something else'.

It is indeed convenient to be factually correct, you don't have to make shit up. The historical evidence rather say that "esoteric suppression" is a feature of culture in general, with very small handful of exceptions. There is no correllation between this and Christianity in particular, and I think there is not even much of a coincidental connection. The great minority of people who engage in those acts of oppression were never particularly pious nor even educated on the principles of faith. How else would it be, given that nowadays very clearly the spiritual corrent of power associated with the Church is clearly in its waxing period and as vital as it hardly ever was, yet it is also the most open and understanding in its entire history? You seem to be the one shutting your eyes tight and ignoring reality. You seem to think that those "energies and egregores" of Christianity operate under some covert principles while in reality they trumpet their nature all across both the world and the astral realm if you listen in the right band.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I'm, yet again, of critical stance on the Catechism, but for example the snippet you quoted seems to contain a justification that covers only specific subsection of the semantic breadth the prohibited practices encompass. One can (and I think should) read it as a prohibition of only those forms of those practices that the justification applies to. The book's all like that - generalised, often dumbed-down rules, very useful for the general public but sacrificing much nuance and logical consistency, often unnecessarily so.

Ok, you're avoiding answering once again with specifics. Forget it

The historical evidence rather say that "esoteric suppression" is a feature of culture in general, with very small handful of exceptions.

lol no, it is not. It is not at all a long-standing feature in, say, non-muslim India. You don't know what you're talking about at all. This is fruitless.

 

[MorganBlack]

"Is condemned" is overstating it. A friar's condemnation is not the same as an official ecclesiastical prohibition. Catholicism is not actually a dogma, it';s an umbrella. A big messy one. It's really not as top down as Anglos and Europeans imagine. The cartoon villains of right-wing Deliverance Catholics exist but most people ignore them. And they get far too much attention on the internet.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

I don’t like doctrinal interference in religions—Christianity or otherwise—but I’ll have to shed some light from a different perspective, from the East. I’ll share some facts about Eastern beliefs: the Virgin Mary is dead; Christ is alive in heaven, but He is not the Son of God; Anyone who claims that Christ is the Son of God or that he possesses any authority beyond that of a mere messenger who brought the Gospel—which has been distorted—is in error. For this reason, we see no value in asking for anything from any deceased person, whether from Mary or from Christ himself.
However, this does not mean that we despise, belittle, or diminish the value of Mary and her son, Christ; rather, we are fully prepared to die in defense of them and of their chastity and purity. indeed, according to our faith, we believe that Christ is the Savior, but He will descend as a messenger who prays to God and subdues demons in the name of the true God—not in His capacity as God, the Son of God, or a manifestation of God; for this is rejected and, in our view, constitutes blasphemy and heresy.

Of course, this introduction is a prelude to what will follow:
Since Christ possesses no power at present,
there are hierarchies that we call the spiritual law:
For we believe that the spiritual world is not merely a collection of spirits wandering aimlessly in a magical realm with no restraints.
That is ridiculous; rather, it is a multi-tiered hierarchical system, just as we are and as they are.
Nations and empires have their own wars and their own internal and external systems; everything we call a dictator or tyrant in this world has billions of followers in the other world.
And all these worlds, kingdoms, and armies are not left to their own devices; rather, there is a higher divine system that governs them, as well as an internal system and other laws among them.



Here, the use of names—what you call “barbaric” or those you assume have no meaning, or that are merely a combination of sound patterns and vibrations—is misleading. Every name has a meaning and is composed of the name of the power bestowed upon it, or a spirit that has covenanted to it, sworn an oath upon it with its head and seal, and given its word to it. It is binding through the permanence of the spirit and the entirety of the kingdom, just like the binding international treaties.

And because the other world also contains other religions—whether they differ from or align with human religions— you will find, upon close examination, that everything referred to as a “book of magic” contains names for summoning, banishing, and invoking powerful beings and mighty armies. The higher you ascend to a stronger spirit or a mightier king with broader powers, the more you will find that the lesser ones follow you, fear you, and tremble at the mere mention of your name.

 

[MorganBlack]

Respect, Angelkesfarl. I adore our conversations, my friend, but Catholicism is best understood within mystical Catholic symbolic systems and poetry.

So in medical diagnostic literature there is a well-documented cognitive correlation between autistic individuals tending to interpret symbolic language more literally, and they particularly have to struggle with non-literal, symbolic, and poetic speech, idioms, and metaphor. This is a real finding in autism research. High-control religious environments that teach literalist readings of scripture can be particularly harmful to autistic people, precisely because their literalism makes them more vulnerable to terror-inducing doctrines like eternal punishment for minor infractions. Out of sheer mercy, that shit needs cleaning up.

So in that inclusive spirit:

This is too much to get into without understanding Catholic mystic symbolism. It would take forever, and most would tune out. Unless you are a mystic, nobody cares.

Catholics are also usually horrible at explaining Catholic symbolism. I highly recommend Canadian artist and Eastern Catholic (churches in communion with Rome that retain the Eastern liturgy), who are usually better educated in this type of symbolic thinking. The Western Church went very secular in the 1970s, in an effort to attract moderns, and is only now recovering.

Jonathan Pageau is a Canadian icon carver and Orthodox thinker who specializes in exactly this kind of symbolic/pattern-based reading of Scripture, myth, and liturgy.

If just to be better educated, I encourage folks to time learn more the core myths and symbolic thinking of the West of the past 1,800 years or so. Just plucking one video, "Encountering God in Stories," walks through the Tabernacle, the Eucharist, the Harrowing of Hades, and how biblical stories hold the world together - all in the symbolic register. You can use other symbolism to talk about reality, but if you are Catholic the whole universe is just Catholic. Fuck, I hope that makes sense to folks.

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[ahathoor]

dear Christ...

Honestly, I find the finger-pointing, blanket damning statements and two-bit flattened (mis)understandings of extremely complex systems incredibly saddening.

As @MorganBlack said, explaining mystical thinking to one entirely unfamiliar with mysticism is a lost cause to begin with... and let's be honest, not everyone (probably not even a majority) in any religion is a mystic.

I think we owe historical accuracy the fact that reaching consensus on orthodoxy, and the suppression of heresy has been a core conflict in organized Christianity from the beginning. That said, I maintain that heresy is as much part and parcel with the Catholic Church as cocaine consumption is part and parcel with the USA.

What a lot of people are missing here is that Christianity is an incredibly mysticism-first religion, that was in various steps turned into first an administrative state religion, and then a modern, humanist-rationalist doctrine.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:24 PM

One can't say "Christianity condemns X" any more than saying "German-speaking people condemn X"... and nor "the Catholic Church is Y" any more than "the United States is Y"...

let's not forget that "the United States" includes everyone from the KKK to polyamorous communist furries.

 

[Beyond Everything]

This

As @MorganBlack said, explaining mystical thinking to one entirely unfamiliar with mysticism is a lost cause to begin with... and let's be honest, not everyone (probably not even a majority) in any religion is a mystic.

Mysticism is 'merging' with egregores. Believe it or not, in the quest for immortality (which is the development of the higher subtle body) that is not a virtue. What is required is merging with the inner Self, not any outside force, principle, entity, 'love' stream or anything else. That this is pretty much universally misunderstood is why the world looks as it does and why there are so very few Liberated humans.

I think we owe historical accuracy the fact that reaching consensus on orthodoxy, and the suppression of heresy has been a core conflict in organized Christianity from the beginning. That said, I maintain that heresy is as much part and parcel with the Catholic Church as cocaine consumption is part and parcel with the USA.

It's not just 'suppression of heresy' , but 1500 years of systematic suppression of esoteric practices outside a few vastly inferior streams of its own. What clues you in is the belief in salvation-by-proxy which is the blackest lie ever promulgated.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:24 PM

One can't say "Christianity condemns X" any more than saying "German-speaking people condemn X"... and nor "the Catholic Church is Y" any more than "the United States is Y"...

The catholic church consistently for centuries behaved in a certain way that anyone can go look at. And I maintain this is no accident, esoterically speaking. That some catholics wriggle like worms and find ways to stretch their boundaries doesn't alter the basic egregoric/collectiviest energies that have had a consistent pattern -again- for centuries. We can play semantic games and parse to infinity but the facts still stand.

Would a strong, free, actualizing individual ever need some guy in a hat to tell them that zen and yoga are at the very least problematic? Think very, very carefully about your answer to that, because if it's 'yes', you are lying to yourself. And that the answer is in fact 'no' gives the whole game away.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 8:11 PM

Catholicism is not actually a dogma,

That's why we have periods where masturbation was 'permitted' and there were female priests? Your claim can not be sustained by reality.

 

[Nembra]

Mysticism is 'merging' with egregores. Believe it or not, in the quest for immortality (which is the development of the higher subtle body) that is not a virtue. What is required is merging with the inner Self, not any outside force, principle, entity, 'love' stream or anything else. That this is pretty much universally misunderstood is why the world looks as it does and why there are so very few Liberated humans.

Yeah, I think this pretty much sums up everything that needs to be known about you for the sake of this conversation. You have crafted a system of understanding for yourself that aligns with your personal goals and desires and have pushed bevond your imagination that your particular values are not universal, nor is reality spun around them. All your enlightenment is squandered for illuminating this little bubble of your own making.

If you'll ever have the fortune of allowing yourself to molt out of this petty, closed-minded quest for "immortality" you'll maybe notice that this "inner self" you pursue is just a current you have chosen for yourself, neither any more internal nor external than all the things you consider "outside forces", just another instance of what you incorrectly call an egregore, only one you think you've made for yourself.

All the people here have their own quests, their own grand destinies to identify with and little idols to pursue. For you it's this "subtle body" experiment, and it's neither special nor even particularly interesting. What you call "liberation" others call "spiritual masturbation", what you call "immortality" others call "prison".

 

[Beyond Everything]

Y

If you'll ever have the fortune of allowing yourself to molt out of this petty, closed-minded quest for "immortality"

lol you're in the left hand path forum. Go preach in service to the catholic egregore elsewhere

 

[ahathoor]

Mysticism is 'merging' with egregores.

I'm glad you have all the answers, all the secrets of existence, and a better understanding of what mystics are doing than they themselves... I guess we can just tell everyone to stop looking, because existence is Solved.

I won't try to refute or argue with you, because, well, it would only piss off both of us. From my perspective it doesn't feel like you're arguing with any of the people here, or even with Christianity or Abrahamism in general, rather with some kind of straw caricature, while wielding words like "egregore" or "subtle body" as if they explained anything at all.

lol you're in the left hand path forum

Wait lol you mean my left hand should cut off my right hand, or slap it, or what?

Post automatically merged: Friday at 8:22 PM

Would a strong, free, actualizing individual ever need some guy in a hat to tell them that zen and yoga are at the very least problematic? Think very, very carefully about your answer to that, because if it's 'yes', you are lying to yourself.

omg lol wtf... xD okay so just so you calm down, the answer is obviously no, but if you think this clown sketch has anything to do with what @Nembra or @MorganBlack was saying, that is a straw man of such enermous size and visibility that you could build an entire fucking desert festival around it.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I'm glad you have all the answers, all the secrets of existence, and a better understanding of what mystics are doing than they themselves... I guess we can just tell everyone to stop looking, because existence is Solved.

Isn't that what catholicism says. They are the Answer?

I won't try to refute or argue with you, because, well, it would only piss off both of us.

lol it wouldn't piss me off. Why would it piss you off? What is inducing that?

omg lol wtf... xD okay so just so you calm down, the answer is obviously no, but if you think this clown sketch has anything to do with what @Nembra or @MorganBlack was saying, that is a straw man of such enermous size and visibility that you could build an entire fucking desert festival around it.

The most important fact is just waved away- 1500 years of the suppression of esoteric practices by the catholic church. Is that somehow insignificant? I've yet to hear an actual response to it. Just vague excuse making.

The argumentation of the catholic defenders-

Morgan says catholicism isnt a dogma lol As if it doesnt have an abundance of rules.

Nembra says every culture suppresses esoteric practices so why single out christianity? lol Which is nonsense if you know any Indian and Chinese (pre communist) history

Your argument is that...well you don't appear to have one other than catholicism can't be defined by what the church hierarchy does for centuries.

There's a true derth of clear thinking among those...sorry...swayed by egregores and their cultural conditioning.

 

[Nembra]

lol you're in the left hand path forum. Go preach in service to the catholic egregore elsewhere

It is quite amusing that you're so consumed by the narrative dictated to you by vitriol (which is actually an egregore) that you seem consistently unable to acknowledge what is actually being spoken to you, responding with this odd dissonance of haughty, self-important tone spelling nothing but clumsy deflections.

 

[Beyond Everything]

It is quite amusing that you're so consumed by the narrative dictated by vitriol (which is actually an egregore) that you seem consistently unable to acknowledge what is actually being spoken to you, responding with this odd dissonance of haughty, self-important tone spelling nothing but clumsy deflections.

lol deflections? I tried to get you to spell out precisely the context of the word 'clairvoyance' in the catechism, and you refused. Mostly you just whine about me. Which is par for the course for religiously-manipulated people.

 

[Nembra]

lol deflections? I tried to get you to spell out precisely the context of the word 'clairvoyance' in the catechism, and you refused. Mostly you just whine about me. Which is par for the course for religiously-manipulated people.

There is no precise context for that concept within catechism, which is one of the problems with it as I meant to be understood. Maybe not clearly enough for the level you insist on conversing at.
I mean, you're very clearly manipulated by that noxious (but very common) pond of spirits you must be calling your "inner self", so that's kind of a weird accusation. I guess Wrath is the traditional name for this particular current.

 

[Soror Epihania]

Mysticism is 'merging' with egregores. Believe it or not, in the quest for immortality (which is the development of the higher subtle body) that is not a virtue. What is required is merging with the inner Self, not any outside force, principle, entity, 'love' stream or anything else. That this is pretty much universally misunderstood is why the world looks as it does and why there are so very few Liberated humans.

Your view has the depth of a puddle, yet you think it's the ocean. I've never seen you share anything positive from your practice aside from vague stuff about the inner Self and subtle body. Your presence in this conversation is mostly flinging attacks at people while hung up on preoccupations with egregores and anti-Christianity, all the while pretending you're beyond everybody else speaking here. It's not a respectful or fruitful way of engaging with people.

 

[Beyond Everything]

There is no precise context for that concept within catechism, which is one of the problems with it as I meant to be understood.

Well you're saying the catechism mentioning of clairvoyance is 'dumbed down', and not explaining how so. It's almost as if you're saying the catholic unwashed masses are stupid and need to be fed crude rules, is that the case? If it isn't the case, why did the pope issue that catechism?
What's the line between 'permitted' clairvoyance and verboten clairvoyance, and how do you distinguish them?

I'd also like you to present your case that pre-communist China had a systematic, centuries long suppression of esoteric practices. You can do the same with India, because part of your argument is that catholicism was doing what every other culture was doing. Whereas those with familiarity with the histories of both those cultures know that is complete nonsense.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 9:10 PM

Your view has the depth of a puddle, yet you think it's the ocean. I've never seen you share anything positive from your practice aside from vague stuff about the inner Self and subtle body. Your presence in this conversation is mostly flinging attacks at people while hung up on preoccupations with egregores and anti-Christianity, all the while pretending you're beyond everybody else speaking here. It's not a respectful or fruitful way of engaging with people.

Your whining about me is noted. I've outlined technical esoteric issues on this site, if you search for the threads on bardon and gratitude. If you can't grasp them, that is certainly not my problem.

 

[Nembra]

Well you're saying the catechism mentioning of clairvoyance is 'dumbed down', and not explaining how so. It's almost as if you're saying the catholic unwashed masses are stupid and need to be fed crude rules, is that the case?

That is expressed in language that carries negative connotations I would never intend to convey. While Christianity is meant to be accessible to everyone (and in fact nobody is intelligent enough to have the full understanding), so there must be a certain gradient of complexity, this kind of "looking down" attitude is one of chief problems of that book.

If it isn't the case, why did the pope issue that catechism?

I have no idea why exactly was it accepted in its apparent form. To be fair to its creators, theological and philosophical completeness was never the goal, nor would it actually be an achievable one. I think they felt that it is better to be too strict than too lenient, but it went way too far, even to the point that some of its passages are used within the Church as a negative example of naive, pagan-like religiosity.

What's the line between 'permitted' clairvoyance and verboten clairvoyance, and how do you distinguish them?

This distinguishment is quite an involved matter I'm frankly pessimistic about my ability to effectively convey to you.

I'd also like you to present your case that pre-communist China had a systematic, centuries long suppression of esoteric practices. You can do the same with India, because part of your argument is that catholicism was doing what every other culture was doing. Whereas those with familiarity with the histories of both those cultures know that is complete nonsense.

Well, we'd first have to establish some way of measuring the scale of this "suppression". For now it's just you using wordslop like "systematic" and "centuries long" based on, I seem forced to suppose, vague vibes scraped from the bottom of popculture.

 

[Beyond Everything]

This distinguishment is quite an involved matter I'm frankly pessimistic about my ability to effectively convey to you.

uh huh

Well, we'd first have to establish some way of measuring the scale of this "suppression". For now it's just you using wordslop like "systematic" and "centuries long" based on, I seem forced to suppose, vague vibes scraped from the bottom of popculture.

Ok, once again ducking. Somehow YOU had some criteria to place an equivalence to what the catholic church did to most other cultures, yet now you can't articulate anything for lack of a benchmark. You're just bullshitting quite clearly

 

[Nembra]

uh huh


Ok, once again ducking. Somehow YOU had some criteria to place an equivalence to what the catholic church did to most other cultures, yet now you can't articulate anything for lack of a benchmark. You're just bullshitting quite clearly

I don't, that's the point. It is equivalent based on rational principles in lack of quantitative evidence. In general terms whenever the cultural pillar of power has enough influence in the society it is usually optimal for those holding this power to suppress all other expressions of culture. There's nothing specifically Christian about it.

It's also very weird that you mention China specifically, since throughout most of imperial period anything that fell under the xiejiao ("barbaric wizardry", loosely speaking) label was severly punished - the emperor had pretty much a monopoly on esoteric insight. Almost as if you haven't even bothered to google if your wishful ideas aren't embarrassingly wrong. The phenomenon is of course by no means particular to occult practices - Socrates was very famously executed for refusing to conform to the state-mandated spirituality, by the exact same mechanism.

 

[MorganBlack]

I usually feel like when pagans, Satanists, and atheists try to "debate me, bro" against Catholicism like they're just shadowboxing with Wikipedia.

Which is also hilarious, since they skip Shadow work Day along with legs, arms, back, chest, and shoulders day. Like, do you even lift, bro?

But if you look at the Bardon + Buddhist mystic synthesis communicated by folks like Alan Chapman, whom I happen like - what BE might be trying to allude to, if insultingly, is the Western - Eastern hybrid "occult" mystical path that really is about transcending it all - all conceptual grasp, transcending all words and "egregores" (let's just call it lower astral spookisms here, and not mystic poetry you don't like ), to awakening. Interestingly it actually has structure pretty much in line with Carmelite apophatic mysticism.

But the paths do differ. Chapman is achieving liberation through systematic absorption and collectedness (brought in from Buddhism, but no space to go into here ) , while St. John of the Cross is entering union through purification (of the nephesh, or "animal" soul) and love. Chapman is closer to the Pseudo-Dionysian hierarchical ascent through purification while St. John of the Cross is the Carmelite path of Nothingness (Nada) and the Dark Night of the Soul.

St. John's path is the one forgotten by Western folks , and this where practitioner's job is to endure the Dark Night, to let go of attachments, and to keep loving Creation even when it's broken, and when all good feelings has vanished. Then break through.