Is Lucifer Satan or Not?

[Xenophon]

We have hit around this point in various threads. I was hoping someone had a definitive answer. To limit the discussion, let's just talk magickally, not historically. A lot of people, among them your humble narrator, tend to lump Lucifer and Satan together. But trying to characterize the entity I say Lucifer wears an "Apollonian" aspect; Satan a "Dionysian" one. These seem to represent fairly distinct constellations of forces.

So, what the Greeks kept asunder, why do we post-Christians meld together? That question certainly hints that the identification of the two represents an inherited habit. Is there any reason to identify them? I can think of cases where two gods certainly seem to be aspects of one being (e.g., Freya/Frigga.) Here, even while I tend to refer to Lucifer-Satan, I cannot find a compelling logical reason to do so. Aesthetically, maybe. The avatar Parallax uses in this forum of the Breker sculpture combines Numinal and Sinister aspects into a unity. So with Lucifer & Satan?

 

[Wildchildx11]

Lucifer to me has an energy which I would describe as a "high ranking angel with earthy vibes and a tone of solemness" but when working with him, he did show me how he could change his energy to be more strict and stern depending on what the person he was working with needed. He did work with me primarily on self-love and placing yourself first, even above him. He didn't like formal titles and preferred to work with people as equals, like when people call Lucifer "Lord Lucifer" it's not the same Lucifer I worked with.

Satan had a real heavy and earthy energy, like very very heavy which felt a little scary, but he was actually very paternal towards me, like a father figure. I haven't worked much with Satan, definitely not as much as Lucifer, who I used to work with quite a bit. I can probably count the number of times on a single hand.

Two different energies, but I am "Feeling/energy/intuition" type of channeler, so take it as you will.

 

[Xenophon]

Lucifer to me has an energy which I would describe as a "high ranking angel with earthy vibes and a tone of solemness" but when working with him, he did show me how he could change his energy to be more strict and stern depending on what the person he was working with needed. He did work with me primarily on self-love and placing yourself first, even above him. He didn't like formal titles and preferred to work with people as equals, like when people call Lucifer "Lord Lucifer" it's not the same Lucifer I worked with.

Satan had a real heavy and earthy energy, like very very heavy which felt a little scary, but he was actually very paternal towards me, like a father figure. I haven't worked much with Satan, definitely not as much as Lucifer, who I used to work with quite a bit. I can probably count the number of times on a single hand.

Two different energies, but I am "Feeling/energy/intuition" type of channeler, so take it as you will.

So your point is, two energies implies two entities? Makes sense.

Anyone else?

 

[Jackson]

They were melded in a Christian misinterpretations of the Bible as using the term light bringer for a king or somesuch.... You'd seem like you'd know that.

 

[Xenophon]

They were melded in a Christian misinterpretations of the Bible as using the term light bringer for a king or somesuch.... You'd seem like you'd know that.

I know the history of that. The question is whether there are magickal reasons for continuing the fusion. To take a parallel case, in old times Loki and Wotan were separate deities. In our day, Stephen Flowers & company drop strong hints at some strong overlap between the two. And their claims ARE thought-provoking. The question is whether the Nazarenes might inadvertently have pointed a fruitful path for their ideological foes. Whether it might be illuminating to treat Lucifer and Satan as one volatile entity.

 

[Jackson]

I haven't actually heard people do so modernly, I would be curious if you have. Satan is an adversarial figure stereotypically connected with sin. Lucifer is a Promethean adversarial figure typically connected with enlightened self-interest and self-knowledge. Not that one couldn't acquire self knowledge through debauchery, but most people don't appear to connect them explicitly, unfortunately.

Unless they're Christian. In this regard, Luciferians seem different.

 

[Shaman]

Could also be beelzebub, bael or belial

 

[Yazata]

To me they definitely are not. Lucifer I associate with understanding / knowledge, and literally seeing what is in the dark (it's our Dutch name for match and thus the flame / light).
Satan to me is more about simply opposing, saying No only because authority says Yes but without having thought it through.

 

[Lucinteris]

I think the confusion occurred due to misinterpretation of biblical texts (which, moreover, were corrected and rewritten several times). Lucifer is initially an Archangel of the highest order. Above Archangel Michael and Archangel Gabriel. Satan is a tempting demon who purposefully harms people. Their capabilities and powers are extremely different.
Ps: English is not my native language, I apologize in advance for grammatical and semantic errors.

 

[KjEno186]

To me Lucifer is a rather enigmatic character. Its Biblical origin is questionable at best, non-existent at worst. The mis-translation of the OT passage where we get "Lucifer" combined with the NT passage that 'Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light' would provide circumstantial evidence that they are one and the same.

There is a definite aspect to Satan which I do not see attributed to Lucifer. In the OT and the Gospels, Satan is always presented as a malicious Prosecutor, an accuser to seeks to use a warped form of justice to persecute innocent people. Rene Girard wrote a whole book examining this topic called I See Satan Fall Like Lightning.

There is a tendency among the simple-minded to view the world in binaries or dualities, thus stripping everything of nuance. In their Puritanical little minds, everything is neatly divided along the lines of God versus Satan. There can be no in-between, no 'supporting cast' as it were, for that would require thinking, and they would prefer to remain asleep.

 

[Lucinteris]

Для меня Люцифер довольно загадочный персонаж. Его библейское происхождение в лучшем случае сомнительно, в худшем - вообще отсутствует. Неправильный перевод отрывка Ветхого Завета, где мы встречаем «Люцифера», в сочетании с отрывком Нового Завета, в котором говорится, что «сам сатана маскируется под ангела света», предоставит косвенное доказательство того, что это одно и то же.

Намеки есть и в еще более древних источниках. Люцифер — древнее название планеты Венера. Учитывая, что Люцифера называют прекраснейшим творением Бога, вывод напрашивается сам собой. Интересно, что некоторые исследователи считают Венеру, Афину и Геру тождественными Божествами. Триединая Богиня, если хотите. Возможно, Люцифер – другое Ее имя.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2024

To me Lucifer is a rather enigmatic character. Its Biblical origin is questionable at best, non-existent at worst. The mis-translation of the OT passage where we get "Lucifer" combined with the NT passage that 'Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light' would provide circumstantial evidence that they are one and the same.

There is a definite aspect to Satan which I do not see attributed to Lucifer. In the OT and the Gospels, Satan is always presented as a malicious Prosecutor, an accuser to seeks to use a warped form of justice to persecute innocent people. Rene Girard wrote a whole book examining this topic called I See Satan Fall Like Lightning.

There is a tendency among the simple-minded to view the world in binaries or dualities, thus stripping everything of nuance. It their Puritanical little minds, everything is neatly divided along the lines of God versus Satan. There can be no in-between, no 'supporting cast' as it were, for that would require thinking, and they would prefer to remain asleep.

There are also hints in even older sources. Lucifer is the ancient name for the planet Venus. Considering what Lucifer calls the most beautiful creativity of God, the conclusion suggests itself. Interestingly, some researchers consider Venus, Athena and Hera to be Christmas deities. The Triune Goddess, if you will. Perhaps Lucifer is another Name.

 

[HoldAll]

Намеки есть и в еще более древних источниках. Люцифер — древнее название планеты Венера. Учитывая, что Люцифера называют прекраснейшим творением Бога, вывод напрашивается сам собой. Интересно, что некоторые исследователи считают Венеру, Афину и Геру тождественными Божествами. Триединая Богиня, если хотите. Возможно, Люцифер – другое Ее имя.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2024

There are also hints in even older sources. Lucifer is the ancient name for the planet Venus. Considering what Lucifer calls the most beautiful creativity of God, the conclusion suggests itself. Interestingly, some researchers consider Venus, Athena and Hera to be Christmas deities. The Triune Goddess, if you will. Perhaps Lucifer is another Name.

Of course it's ok to use your autotranslator for translating the comment you're responding to but that doesn't mean you have to answer in your language as well. As it isn't possible to delete one's comments, always be sure to think before you reply.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2024

Намеки есть и в еще более древних источниках. Люцифер — древнее название планеты Венера. Учитывая, что Люцифера называют прекраснейшим творением Бога, вывод напрашивается сам собой. Интересно, что некоторые исследователи считают Венеру, Афину и Геру тождественными Божествами. Триединая Богиня, если хотите. Возможно, Люцифер – другое Ее имя.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2024

There are also hints in even older sources. Lucifer is the ancient name for the planet Venus. Considering what Lucifer calls the most beautiful creativity of God, the conclusion suggests itself. Interestingly, some researchers consider Venus, Athena and Hera to be Christmas deities. The Triune Goddess, if you will. Perhaps Lucifer is another Name.

May be this site will prove more reliable for your translation needs:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2024

Also no bilingual comments, of course.

 

[Xenophon]

I haven't actually heard people do so modernly, I would be curious if you have. Satan is an adversarial figure stereotypically connected with sin. Lucifer is a Promethean adversarial figure typically connected with enlightened self-interest and self-knowledge. Not that one couldn't acquire self knowledge through debauchery, but most people don't appear to connect them explicitly, unfortunately.

Unless they're Christian. In this regard, Luciferians seem different.

A lot of enlightened self-interest gets painted as sin, so there could be the point of intersection.

 

[Roma]

In the OT, a satan is a tester, possibly sent by their god

Anton Parks apparently had a lot of cosmic experiences/explanations and, as I recall, he considers that Enlil is the source of the Satan character while Enki/Osiris may be the source of the light-bearer (Lucifer). There are various reports that Enki is back on the job locally

 

[Xenophon]

In the OT, a satan is a tester, possibly sent by their god

Anton Parks apparently had a lot of cosmic experiences/explanations and, as I recall, he considers that Enlil is the source of the Satan character while Enki/Osiris may be the source of the light-bearer (Lucifer). There are various reports that Enki is back on the job locally

Enki is back on duty? What is the source of the reports? Based on what evidence? (I mean, I've heard that the Merovingians are still angling to sit on a restored French throne, but don't much credit the rumor.)

 

[8Lou1]

i was thought that sjaitan in islam is a wise man/woman. for me personally when i take life from that view, its mostly people who have religious knowhow and dare to show others what that means in real life. in other words a sjaitan is willing to show the Truth. it seems there are gods, spirits,etc. that are willing to do the same, hence satan-lucifer, etc.

the idea of satan being an opposer makes to me sense in a mirroring way, where narcissus shows me his satanic skill of loving ones self, but he always wins at loving himself best.

i think the term satan and seen as a concept is like glass on a mirror: the thin line between us when we meet an other soul. its why we kill the bad guy and hug in the end. satan is the road, the jesus, etc.

so its what makes humans different from animals, its what makes us think, its the Word and the Word was with god, its consciousness living on earth. a lot of olders spirits like helping with that, so they get the sticker satan, so the lost souls know.

you know ramblings of a mystic are like this, never a strait answer. to put it very very simple its 2 because they like to mingle thats why we are on earth go forth and multiply and because it works. humans trigger on things satanic. the universe likes it like that.

 

[Roma]

Enki is back on duty?

There are various interviews in the exopolitics area about "20 and back" types meeting with Enki. Elena Danaan has written much about her encounters with Enki in her books. Anton Parks is another with face to face in-body meetings.

Those encounters have generated much more detailed accounts of the early history of this solar system and of the various human groups bred for Earth service

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

We have hit around this point in various threads. I was hoping someone had a definitive answer. To limit the discussion, let's just talk magickally, not historically. A lot of people, among them your humble narrator, tend to lump Lucifer and Satan together. But trying to characterize the entity I say Lucifer wears an "Apollonian" aspect; Satan a "Dionysian" one. These seem to represent fairly distinct constellations of forces.

So, what the Greeks kept asunder, why do we post-Christians meld together? That question certainly hints that the identification of the two represents an inherited habit. Is there any reason to identify them? I can think of cases where two gods certainly seem to be aspects of one being (e.g., Freya/Frigga.) Here, even while I tend to refer to Lucifer-Satan, I cannot find a compelling logical reason to do so. Aesthetically, maybe. The avatar Parallax uses in this forum of the Breker sculpture combines Numinal and Sinister aspects into a unity. So with Lucifer & Satan?

Esoterically speaking, no and yes. The Satanic Bible attributes Lucifer to East and Satan to South, Leviathan to West and Belial to North.
The LBRP using these names with inverted pentagrams is used this way.
However, be Biblically speaking, Satan is referred to as a Liar, and Lucifer was synonymous with Satan. However, some scholars speculate that Lucifer was the King of Tyre.
Goetically speaking, Belial springs s reported to be a fallen angel, created after Lucifer.
So, it appears they could be actually ng through people, and that they are not the same.

 

[aviaf]

Nah. The X-tians lump them together under satan, and I believe he's an egregore. Maybe not, though. I only worked with him briefly. Lucifer is also the Celtic Lugh, the Welsh Llew and maybe Odin... all of whom are light bringers (and ordeal bringers). Lucifer and Lugh/Llew actually phonetically mean "light bringer" and were sun gods, Odin fills that same role. Magically, they're different beings. Have worked with all of them. Not sure if they are primordial beings or human thought forms or egregores... the results were fast and brutal though. With every being I've mentioned.

 

[Xenophon]

Esoterically speaking, no and yes. The Satanic Bible attributes Lucifer to East and Satan to South, Leviathan to West and Belial to North.
The LBRP using these names with inverted pentagrams is used this way.
However, be Biblically speaking, Satan is referred to as a Liar, and Lucifer was synonymous with Satan. However, some scholars speculate that Lucifer was the King of Tyre.
Goetically speaking, Belial springs s reported to be a fallen angel, created after Lucifer.
So, it appears they could be actually ng through people, and that they are not the same.

Good points, though "The Satanic Bible" is far from canonical even among Satanists. There are those who consider it a clumsy joke, most of all on its author.

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2024

Nah. The X-tians lump them together under satan, and I believe he's an egregore. Maybe not, though. I only worked with him briefly. Lucifer is also the Celtic Lugh, the Welsh Llew and maybe Odin... all of whom are light bringers (and ordeal bringers). Lucifer and Lugh/Llew actually phonetically mean "light bringer" and were sun gods, Odin fills that same role. Magically, they're different beings. Have worked with all of them. Not sure if they are primordial beings or human thought forms or egregores... the results were fast and brutal though. With every being I've mentioned.

Your experience is noted. Name etymologies by themselves solve no questions, though. Odin's 180+ kennings hint at a being that combines both Luciferian and Satanic strains.