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I think I have rather definitive answer: it depends on paradigm.
I suppose it to be the classical situation from traditional "Blind men and an elephant" parable. We just have no capacity to catch full image of such power. And have no visual erudition to get the idea of such image from elsewhere. That's why we're creating the projections to form simulacra-like image for personal or communuty ussage
Good points, though "The Satanic Bible" is far from canonical even among Satanists. There are those who consider it a clumsy joke, most of all on its author.
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Your experience is noted. Name etymologies by themselves solve no questions, though. Odin's 180+ kennings hint at a being that combines both Luciferian and Satanic strains.
Wasn't stressing the name entomology, really. But I get your point. So the question was are they the same Being? My experience tells me no. I've been wrong before, though, so I don't let the problem bother me and treat them as different beings, even though they may just be aspects of the same Power. As a matter of fact, I don't bother with Lucifer or Satan anymore, as Grimnir fills the role I need when working with the Prometheian element, and Satan has a negative vibe that I don't enjoy working with. That said, I tip my hat to his antinomian nature and enjoy the outrage Satanists/Luciferians cause among the religiously inclined. I just prefer to dispense with the desert dweller mythologies and work with pre and post x-tian deity when engaging in theurgy.
@aviaf interesting choice... anyways, back ob my LHP days, I found that Lucifer would differ drastically from Satan.
Not to say that Lucifer is a goody two shoes, not at all in most of the cases when I worked with him, but Lucifer is more cunning than Satan.
Satan always seemed to me as the bold and aggressive one, while Lucifer was more like the chill (but dangerous still) dude.
I am not telling anyone what to do or what to consider, but Luciferian elements such as Prometheus / Lucifer only represent just a manifestation of what Lucifer stands for rebellion but having use of a Greek God as well.
You don't actually need to choose the Promrtheian / Luciferian element as you can see that Lucifer himself is the Demonic Wielder of the Vril after stealing it from God (Yesh).
It's a legend that goes back when the Canaanites were a civilization.
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Satan is the Fallen Archangel Samael, who joined Lucifer's rebellion with the other 3rd host of Fallen Angels / Demons which, alongside Lucifer, became what we know today as 72 Goetic demons
Wasn't stressing the name entomology, really. But I get your point. So the question was are they the same Being? My experience tells me no. I've been wrong before, though, so I don't let the problem bother me and treat them as different beings, even though they may just be aspects of the same Power. As a matter of fact, I don't bother with Lucifer or Satan anymore, as Grimnir fills the role I need when working with the Prometheian element, and Satan has a negative vibe that I don't enjoy working with. That said, I tip my hat to his antinomian nature and enjoy the outrage Satanists/Luciferians cause among the religiously inclined. I just prefer to dispense with the desert dweller mythologies and work with pre and post x-tian deity when engaging in theurgy.
The way I've understood it thus far is that Satan is what the Greeks called "chaos" manifest. Satan, or this primordial acausal chaos if you will, manifests itself in different ways. To the Romans he was god Saturn, to the Hindus, Kali (and perhaps as Sani too). To others, as the Red Dragon, to some, like a chaos magician, he/she/it is simply "energy" from the void. Lucifer is an aspect of Satan, the more human-esque figure who can teach human beings to rekindle their connection with chaos (among other things).
Maybe I'm utterly wrong, but this is what I've come to believe after reading a lot about Saturn, Lucifer, Tantra and anti-cosmic Satanism.
I'm late to the post. But this question will warrant different answers from different people! For me, they are not the same. Satan comes from the Hebrew name ha-Satan, which means an opposer of God. This wasn't a name for a demonic entity, but for any who go against God. In my personal practice, I have worked with Lucifer and have viewed Satan as a sort of energy/essence.
I'm late to the post. But this question will warrant different answers from different people! For me, they are not the same. Satan comes from the Hebrew name ha-Satan, which means an opposer of God. This wasn't a name for a demonic entity, but for any who go against God. In my personal practice, I have worked with Lucifer and have viewed Satan as a sort of energy/essence.
What I can say when I worked with the Demons in the past, I have been LHP in the past, Satan is separate from Lucifer and is like it has its independent dark energy. That is how I felt when I was working with it.
But from my experience I can also say that Satan is not just a mere thoughtform but as well a powerful Demon, different from Lucifer of course
Esoterically speaking, no and yes. The Satanic Bible attributes Lucifer to East and Satan to South, Leviathan to West and Belial to North.
The LBRP using these names with inverted pentagrams is used this way.
However, be Biblically speaking, Satan is referred to as a Liar, and Lucifer was synonymous with Satan. However, some scholars speculate that Lucifer was the King of Tyre.
Goetically speaking, Belial springs s reported to be a fallen angel, created after Lucifer.
So, it appears they could be actually ng through people, and that they are not the same.
Lucifer, Latin for Light Bringer, Greek as Phosphoros/Eosphoros which means Light Bringer/Dawn Bringer.
The mythology is not even Christian but was converted into the Adversary/Ha'Satan due to the Latin translation of the Hebrew Bible, utilizing the Greek translation of the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar's title as the Morning Star.
Lucifer, in essence, was an adoption and not an original entity of Christian literature. Satan was an adversarial creation within Hebrew texts, however still subject to God.
No simply put Lucifer is not Satan, it was a mistranslation. No esoteric “well they can represent” blah blah blah, absolutely not.
Definitive answer, Lucifer is not Satan,
Even In a Rosicrucian tradition,
Lucifer was then theif who looked to Jesus and asked “are you truly the son of God?” Christ said you will be with me and my father in the kingdom of heaven.
Ahriman aka HaSatan was the other there who looked away in disgust.
it’s said Lucifer is a being of pure light (like the pillar of mercy) and Ahriman is a being of pure physical (pillar of severity)
Inbetween you have the middle pillar.
At Michael the balance of knowing, discernment and Truth.
In the book of Luke if I remember correctly,
An angel was mocking a king and said something along the lines of you think you can be the light bearer (or the morning star) Christ in revelation is referred to as the morning star.
There was a bishop named Lucifer and a select view didn’t like his hard stance that his views were starkly “Jesus is the lord and savior, anyone who believes otherwise will be excommunicated” guess what the name of the bishop was?
Lvcifer. Guess what Bishop was excommunicated and demonized for taking such a hard stance,
Lvcifer.
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No matter the literal or the metaphysical they are two very different beings,
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@Sabbatius Is correct, except a small caveat, Zoroastrians had a concept of HaSatan the evil force named Ahriman and its antithesis is Ahura Mazda the Good force ,
In these terms one can see the parallels of a God figure and HaSatan figure so it’s not put solely on the church except the church used manipulation and broke down Divine law (Asha to Zoroastrians and Ma’at to Egyptians) to only the commandments, where as Zoroastrians had divine thoughts, Words and Deeds, ultimate truth and to practice what they learned. Down to it after all, theory without practice is just masterbation and Ma’at consisted of (I think of 42)?) that were more so divine rules for a larger society.
Christians are heavily into masturbation as a whole (not to paint them with a large brush but they go against a lot of their own teachings).
which convoluted Lucifer and Satan.
Even biblically Hasatan also rules over the earth, which would make sense, he is “Ahriman”in the Zoroastrian faith and as where Lucifer would be one who seeks Asha. (Or the spark of Logos within us ect) both have Asha as its likened to the blueprint Ahura Mazda used to create (which Asha also refers to the most righteous good)
Big difference is Luciferian seek, where as Satanist’s do not.‘even though they both have have a moral framework which is inherent in mankind, Luciferians are way more spiritual (Dr.Robert Gilber a Rosicrucian) would say a little too spiritual like a monk in the mountains, Satanists just say don’t be a d*ck.
Rosicrucians take a more middle path, even though they are esoteric Christians.
They see Luciferian and Satanist as complete opposites, such as one is the pillar of mercy, the other, the pillar of severity, or the one side of the inga and the other the pingala.
-Bonus info that ties Rosicrucian and Zoroastrian middle pillar concepts and how they are open to both Luciferian and Satanists regardless of faith,
To transmute the two of them into one would be that of a kundalini awakening. the middle path to Roses is the framework of Christ that is inherent like that of Asha in Zoroastrianism, their middle pillar however is that of St. Michael, (Knowing through Discernment by Truth) Zoroastrians follow (Good thoughts, Good words and Good deeds) a cyclical model still used in therapy today.
Either is possible for a Luciferian or a Satanist even though they are 2 opposite of the spectrum.
We have hit around this point in various threads. I was hoping someone had a definitive answer. To limit the discussion, let's just talk magickally, not historically. A lot of people, among them your humble narrator, tend to lump Lucifer and Satan together. But trying to characterize the entity I say Lucifer wears an "Apollonian" aspect; Satan a "Dionysian" one. These seem to represent fairly distinct constellations of forces.
So, what the Greeks kept asunder, why do we post-Christians meld together? That question certainly hints that the identification of the two represents an inherited habit. Is there any reason to identify them? I can think of cases where two gods certainly seem to be aspects of one being (e.g., Freya/Frigga.) Here, even while I tend to refer to Lucifer-Satan, I cannot find a compelling logical reason to do so. Aesthetically, maybe. The avatar Parallax uses in this forum of the Breker sculpture combines Numinal and Sinister aspects into a unity. So with Lucifer & Satan?
all symbols exist as vehicles of the unknowable metaphysical world, whether this is words, sculptors, paintings, weapons, etc. the vehicle of lucifer-satan in my experience is different from both it's individual parts. Born from necessity in relation to it's conditions and intentions.
I think it's truly difficult if we all connect to the same unknowable essences through these symbols however, while generally imo we do, through the internal conditions of individuals may lead their intentions or visualizations into unique different connections through the gateways of form.
They are different as they are only considered the same through developed culture and not initially through practice at least from my perspective.
Also a Goated parallax mention is always appreciated.
We have hit around this point in various threads. I was hoping someone had a definitive answer. To limit the discussion, let's just talk magickally, not historically. A lot of people, among them your humble narrator, tend to lump Lucifer and Satan together. But trying to characterize the entity I say Lucifer wears an "Apollonian" aspect; Satan a "Dionysian" one. These seem to represent fairly distinct constellations of forces.
So, what the Greeks kept asunder, why do we post-Christians meld together? That question certainly hints that the identification of the two represents an inherited habit. Is there any reason to identify them? I can think of cases where two gods certainly seem to be aspects of one being (e.g., Freya/Frigga.) Here, even while I tend to refer to Lucifer-Satan, I cannot find a compelling logical reason to do so. Aesthetically, maybe. The avatar Parallax uses in this forum of the Breker sculpture combines Numinal and Sinister aspects into a unity. So with Lucifer & Satan?
Not at all. Lucifer = Venusian = light bearer. I’ve broken it down before here somewhere in depth. Multiple times. Lucifer is elegant, to me Satan comes off, not in a bad way, but more akin to a carnal f*ckboy running around the woods (yeah I’d say that’s Dionysus). I always have Lucifer synchronised with the Venusian spirits, plus Hecate & the dark goddesses. Take that as you will. He implies the need to look within and do “dark shadow work”. I don’t think Satan is so much, more so the theatrics and outer elements. I would say the Saturnian. While Lucifer is Venusian. Some might say Lucifer could be a solar entity too. (Light bearing). The old world semantics aside, it helps to look through the lense of modernity and present day reality.
I don’t take things here in terms of good or bad negative or positive but they are in terms of differing frequency and vibration and resonance.
They are different that that is just the way the universe oscillates each entity for Millenia. There is no need to say they are one in the same, when they are versatile and depict different things.
when you work with entities you align yourself with energy. And that energy is a catalyst for evoking a cascade of neurological reactions in your neurochemistry that modulates your neurobiology, causing changes in your biochemistry, influencing your perception, your sensory input and output, etc. it’s all very (in terms of psychological changes, neuroscience and human biology) pretty scientific but if we could measure it quantitatively (evocation or invocation) wouldn’t that be wonderful?
I am a student of research & psychology so I love data and the objective world but I also walk in the high magick realm. In its core psychology is the quest to measure the human experience of “consciousness” “what is the soul/mind”. So it is rather “mystical”.
High magick practioners from my POV get lost in the grandiose pomp of justifying their subjective spiritual “quantitative” experiences rather than looking at the meta/bigger picture and seeking to unify, the collective. Instead of seeking a broad approach at looking to make magick more “valid” (taken seriously in terms of having validity would change a lot in terms of the fragmented and broken nature of the entire modern occult world, which really shapes psychology, and visa Vera, both are intrisinically linked). That is another story.
But if people were more focused on a bigger collective picture or “goal”, rather than lodge in fighting or ego stroking, then magickal aims would be focused on fulfilling an end that justified a means rather than senseless tedious in fighting on concepts that will never have resolution.
Open ended intellectual discussions are fine. Sure.
Satan and Lucifer share some thing - the need for open, Socratic discourse and intellectual prowess.
The motivation for self knowledge and self enoowerment.
The need to challenge the status quo and a defiance against the social norms and rules of a collective society.
Are they the same entity ?
not at all. But do they share similar attributes ? Yes. Will these attract individuals who also reflect these attributes if they ate authentically working towards these aims?
Yes. Ideally.
Should people unify these collective aims in a goal oriented method that actualises an aim in a productive way rather than destroys or focuses on nihilistic pursuits using the occult.
Probably.
Solution focused. Problem solving. Action oriented. I know Lucifer has helped me come to terms with “losing everything to understand the rising from the ashes and transmutation of building anew”. He tests his initiates, I don’t say that lightly. I mean that since I started my work with him last year my entire life has been transformed and changed in ways I never could of seen.. in hindsight IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN. It keeps changing, I have to adapt or I will be forced to learn the hard way. He won’t take a weak or unwilling soul, who cannot self reflect. In fact he encourages people to change, take accountability and learn from their mistakes. He forces behaviour change. He forces new lifestyle habits and routines and patterns by literally giving you a new trajectory but it won’t be easy. He will (I mean literally) burn your old life away and take down what isn’t working to force you on a new path aligned to your soul purpose. Prepare to lose anything you cling to for comfort and be comfortable being uncomfortable because the only safety will be in danger. That’s what your initiation with Lucifer will involve.
Satan, I don’t know but I have friends who are very embellished and become pompous, glorify his word and enjoy the theatrics of it. I think that’s more of the energy but maybe I’m wrong. It’s not as transformative. But that’s the nature of vibration and oscillation.
There are so many other spirits who offer plethora of experiences/ belial, asmoday, astorath etc
What about BAPHOMET ? It’s often confused with a satanic figure.
to limit yourself to the lucifer or satan paradigm is like saying “should I be a catholic or a Protestant” but the demonoloter version IMHO.
you can go deeper, Satan & Kucifer are literally what outsiders perceive “occultists” practicing magick with when they are in actuality usually working with angels, demons and comprehensive planetary spheres, elementals & pantheons that could cross into multiple different lineages, (I work through Celtic, GReek, Indo-Germanic-Sanse-Espiritismo-Voudun-then a few Grimoires )
We have hit around this point in various threads. I was hoping someone had a definitive answer. To limit the discussion, let's just talk magickally, not historically. A lot of people, among them your humble narrator, tend to lump Lucifer and Satan together. But trying to characterize the entity I say Lucifer wears an "Apollonian" aspect; Satan a "Dionysian" one. These seem to represent fairly distinct constellations of forces.
So, what the Greeks kept asunder, why do we post-Christians meld together? That question certainly hints that the identification of the two represents an inherited habit. Is there any reason to identify them? I can think of cases where two gods certainly seem to be aspects of one being (e.g., Freya/Frigga.) Here, even while I tend to refer to Lucifer-Satan, I cannot find a compelling logical reason to do so. Aesthetically, maybe. The avatar Parallax uses in this forum of the Breker sculpture combines Numinal and Sinister aspects into a unity. So with Lucifer & Satan?
The avatar stuff needs to stay to the traditions where avatars are born… I.e Hindu. Stop bringing avatars into pantheons into which they are not originally from, the concept is.. alien, mismatched and foreign. It doesn’t blend and never will. Leave the avatar concept to the medium from which it was birthed. Avatar isn’t synonymous for what people think it means.
I think they are the same, maybe different, Lucifer is more ”virtue” in essence, while Satan is the name after the downfall, but i do believe that Lucifer have different roles in the hierarchy. Could be the inequality. Different names with different roles but the same guy so to speak.
Not at all. Lucifer = Venusian = light bearer. I’ve broken it down before here somewhere in depth. Multiple times. Lucifer is elegant, to me Satan comes off, not in a bad way, but more akin to a carnal f*ckboy running around the woods (yeah I’d say that’s Dionysus). I always have Lucifer synchronised with the Venusian spirits, plus Hecate & the dark goddesses. Take that as you will. He implies the need to look within and do “dark shadow work”. I don’t think Satan is so much, more so the theatrics and outer elements. I would say the Saturnian. While Lucifer is Venusian. Some might say Lucifer could be a solar entity too. (Light bearing). The old world semantics aside, it helps to look through the lense of modernity and present day reality.
I don’t take things here in terms of good or bad negative or positive but they are in terms of differing frequency and vibration and resonance.
They are different that that is just the way the universe oscillates each entity for Millenia. There is no need to say they are one in the same, when they are versatile and depict different things.
when you work with entities you align yourself with energy. And that energy is a catalyst for evoking a cascade of neurological reactions in your neurochemistry that modulates your neurobiology, causing changes in your biochemistry, influencing your perception, your sensory input and output, etc. it’s all very (in terms of psychological changes, neuroscience and human biology) pretty scientific but if we could measure it quantitatively (evocation or invocation) wouldn’t that be wonderful?
I am a student of research & psychology so I love data and the objective world but I also walk in the high magick realm. In its core psychology is the quest to measure the human experience of “consciousness” “what is the soul/mind”. So it is rather “mystical”.
High magick practioners from my POV get lost in the grandiose pomp of justifying their subjective spiritual “quantitative” experiences rather than looking at the meta/bigger picture and seeking to unify, the collective. Instead of seeking a broad approach at looking to make magick more “valid” (taken seriously in terms of having validity would change a lot in terms of the fragmented and broken nature of the entire modern occult world, which really shapes psychology, and visa Vera, both are intrisinically linked). That is another story.
But if people were more focused on a bigger collective picture or “goal”, rather than lodge in fighting or ego stroking, then magickal aims would be focused on fulfilling an end that justified a means rather than senseless tedious in fighting on concepts that will never have resolution.
Open ended intellectual discussions are fine. Sure.
Satan and Lucifer share some thing - the need for open, Socratic discourse and intellectual prowess.
The motivation for self knowledge and self enoowerment.
The need to challenge the status quo and a defiance against the social norms and rules of a collective society.
Are they the same entity ?
not at all. But do they share similar attributes ? Yes. Will these attract individuals who also reflect these attributes if they ate authentically working towards these aims?
Yes. Ideally.
Should people unify these collective aims in a goal oriented method that actualises an aim in a productive way rather than destroys or focuses on nihilistic pursuits using the occult.
Probably.
Solution focused. Problem solving. Action oriented. I know Lucifer has helped me come to terms with “losing everything to understand the rising from the ashes and transmutation of building anew”. He tests his initiates, I don’t say that lightly. I mean that since I started my work with him last year my entire life has been transformed and changed in ways I never could of seen.. in hindsight IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN. It keeps changing, I have to adapt or I will be forced to learn the hard way. He won’t take a weak or unwilling soul, who cannot self reflect. In fact he encourages people to change, take accountability and learn from their mistakes. He forces behaviour change. He forces new lifestyle habits and routines and patterns by literally giving you a new trajectory but it won’t be easy. He will (I mean literally) burn your old life away and take down what isn’t working to force you on a new path aligned to your soul purpose. Prepare to lose anything you cling to for comfort and be comfortable being uncomfortable because the only safety will be in danger. That’s what your initiation with Lucifer will involve.
Satan, I don’t know but I have friends who are very embellished and become pompous, glorify his word and enjoy the theatrics of it. I think that’s more of the energy but maybe I’m wrong. It’s not as transformative. But that’s the nature of vibration and oscillation.
There are so many other spirits who offer plethora of experiences/ belial, asmoday, astorath etc
What about BAPHOMET ? It’s often confused with a satanic figure.
to limit yourself to the lucifer or satan paradigm is like saying “should I be a catholic or a Protestant” but the demonoloter version IMHO.
you can go deeper, Satan & Kucifer are literally what outsiders perceive “occultists” practicing magick with when they are in actuality usually working with angels, demons and comprehensive planetary spheres, elementals & pantheons that could cross into multiple different lineages, (I work through Celtic, GReek, Indo-Germanic-Sanse-Espiritismo-Voudun-then a few Grimoires )
Even with the historical it's been quite difficult for me to square Lucifer with my culturally informed perspective on Venus. With headcanon, where the attributes of Lucifer are attributed to Venus before a narrative Fall and Mercury afterward, it's been possible to find a weave for myself with culture, natural science, and Hermetic Celestial Metaphor.
I sync Lucifer with Venus and Dark Goddesses, too. Specifically through the shadow of the phases of the inferior planets and Moon: Lucifer, Lilith, and Hecate.
Contemplating an inhabited world where there is only one inferior planet with high albedo it's easy to imagine a scenario where Lucifer could be attributed to an aspect of it.
But, that's quite a digression...
Getting back to this world and Satan, with the changing of a spiritual age where the old gods are reassigned as demons, the imaged supracosmic transcendent god of the receding age could be considered the new primary false god from being based no reality at all. A lord of lies(so to speak) sitting on an throne of lies. This change in cosmology adjusts Satan's Hermetic metaphor. As it would with all hyperphysical entities that have coherence through celestial alignment. Satan does seem anchored culturally to traditional Saturn qualities and death/judgement.
Lucifer to me has an energy which I would describe as a "high ranking angel with earthy vibes and a tone of solemness" but when working with him, he did show me how he could change his energy to be more strict and stern depending on what the person he was working with needed. He did work with me primarily on self-love and placing yourself first, even above him. He didn't like formal titles and preferred to work with people as equals, like when people call Lucifer "Lord Lucifer" it's not the same Lucifer I worked with.
Satan had a real heavy and earthy energy, like very very heavy which felt a little scary, but he was actually very paternal towards me, like a father figure. I haven't worked much with Satan, definitely not as much as Lucifer, who I used to work with quite a bit. I can probably count the number of times on a single hand.
Two different energies, but I am "Feeling/energy/intuition" type of channeler, so take it as you will.
if your perception of a spirit blows in the wind, how can you distinguish that from your own imagination? again, radical self honesty, its non-negotiable on this path.
