Joining the O.T.O: pros and cons

[Firetree]

Interesting, I've mostly seen them as the party going sort, who seemed to have no interest in the occult at all.
All of them seemed to drink, party and play pool at the lodge. Nobody seemed serious about anything but who knows maybe they were. The only thing they seemed to consistently care about was their annual charity drive and members fees to maintain their party lodge, with a pool lol.

Maybe this was true of them back in the day, but in today's age the odd fellows are sort a drunken riff raff lol - I like them though.

So they are like the Masons !

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:19 AM

I see, very interesting. Didn't realise they had pre-lodge bodies.

For me , the symbolism goes somewhat like ;

The initiate is travelling in the desert (normal life ) , seeking water ( the 'water of life ' - basically 'knowledge' and 'higher teachings ' ) about ( according to published material ) ' how to make one's way in the world ' .

The first contact is with a 'Camp' - a group of like minded travelers that have a 'base of knowledge ' somewhere . You can be invited to be their 'guest' and travel with them .

if that goes well, the next stage is 'being taken to ' their 'Oasis' ; where some water is available , where you can partake of it ( ie, the first three degrees )

The next is'Lodge' like 'home base' in the town or city ; HQ ... where further mysteries (including beyond 3rd - ie beyond death ) are held and initiated .

- I'm more of an Oasis type of guy .... I like 'the wilderness' .

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:31 AM

Attending Mass would be the most obvious guess, and the correct one, but that would be too normal and wouldn't serve the ploy of your remarks.

Nah .... I'm not in it anymore so no need for those suspicions . Attending Mass, I think WOULD be a good gauge , it would give insight into practice attitude and competency .

As for evaluating a group in a few months, it doesn't take that long to see what an organized group of people are about and what kind of people get wrapped into it. It wouldn't take more than a short time to learn about the people that stay in anti-abortionist groups or Ducks Unlimited.

Except the OTO has variety in local bodies , thats why I ask if your expereince and comments are about the order generally , or a few people you have met that are in it .

Indeed, members of OTO online will make positive things up and minimize their group's faults to make it appear benign and beneficial. Identifying ploys cults use to try to undermine critics is one way to see through their claims and get to the intent and quality of the individual.

So ... how am I going with that ?

Still, I will undermine a critic ( eve a so-called 'whistle blower ) that complains about a fraternity where people helped another member move house . Thats just silly . However if someone complained about 'bad past dark energy ' from the old unregulated 'hippy ' era , I'd agree . A big clean up job was needed there .

To call his work derivative would be giving it too much credit. It's better described as duplication for popularizing.

Yeah, thats what happens when you turn into an author trying to make money out of it . Although Lom seems well liked and tolerated ... that 'career choice' is often 'frowned upon ' ... due to ... what he said ' duplication for popularizing.' ... a bit like if I took all your posts on WF and made a book out of it and started making money out of that .

 

[Sabbatius]

I’ve been practicing the Art for a while now, with both good and bad experiences along the way, and I wanted to ask what you guys see as the pros and cons of joining the O.T.O.

I tend to be pretty ceremonial with my practice, but I’m also quite pragmatic when I need to be. I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts and experiences, especially from those who have actually been involved with the O.T.O.

Would be happy to read your comments

The Pros: There is quite a bit of material shared within the O.T.O. that is surprisingly not plastered all over the internet and therefore is not free and accessible. There is also new and experiemental projects happening often at every Lodge, and this is one thing that the Temple of Set also encourages among the differing Orders associated with their Lodge.

The Cons: Egos rise within the ranks, and often will become tainted and jealous of the new initiate. Also, the biggest con- the O.T.O. is big into sex magic, even to the point of absurdity. Crowley basked in it among the order, while everyone after embraced it wholeheartedly. If it is your thing, well, expect a lot of it. If you are not, and straight, ask questions before committing to it.

Now I speak from the experiences among the O.T.O. in Los Angeles mostly during the 1990's and early 2000's. The few I am in contact with still have become hermits and one is a well known name still somewhat active.

 

[agloval]

the O.T.O. is big into sex magic, even to the point of absurdity.

I’ve tried to study a bit of everything, but sexual magic is something I’ve always struggled to get into. Not because I’m a prude (though maybe I am, who knows), it’s just never really been my thing. It’s definitely something worth thinking about, though, so thanks for your reply. I’ll ask around at the OTO anyway.

Egos rise within the ranks

Ahh, and I suppose ego and envy are everywhere haha. Nothing you can really do about that.

 

[Janus]

Well ... maybe he met and encountered some like that .

Ya know I could say ; '' Wizard forum is full of psychiatric medicated demon evokers . But that leaves out the intelligent balanced practitioners .

People are people - regardless of the organisation .... a bunch of loonies with a few scattered gems

or as someone once said regarding magical orders and groups (or any group really ) ;

'' If you know of a group with no bad members that has a leader with no faults .... please tell me who they are ! ! ! ''

My experience , my personal experience over the years , I have met some gems in the OTO . I have met more arseholes in other aspects of my life ; like in work or in everyday 'community' .

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:05 AM

Well, you did say ; '' only direct observations over a few months '' thats not really comprehensive . I mean, was it a localized experience in one area ; what was the context eg , general or a specific issue which might have caused your opinion .... like you were drunk driving and smashed into their HQ (ok thats just my sense of humor , but I think you get what I mean ) . Or was it an intensive cross section of people where you traveled about and met many of them under different circumstances 'over a few months ' ?

And over the internet ? Well ........ all sorts of people claim all sorts of stuff on the internet .

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:07 AM

But I spent A LOT MORE time around them than a 'few weeks' ... years , and all over the place too . So that point doesnt really hold up .

Like you met a few you didnt like .

he met one he did .

I met a LOT , some I liked, some I didn't . Let's not let our limited experiences get in the way ... or if we do, let's give them equal validity , for each person's situation .

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:13 AM

and this ;

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Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:24 AM

In one way yes ... in another no . The people ; mostly - but with your magick/thelema qualifications . In some areas there are many similarities .

One difference is the structure of Lodges ; OTO has preliminary bodies before Lodges ; Camp and Oasis ( local bodies ) . There are other constitutional differences . They are very much the same as far as 'method' goes - ritual drama enactment ; where the story of a 'God' , hero or mythical character (or in the case of OTO ) or an inspirational / aspirational person , is acted out , with the initiate being a central character , playing a part that is mostly unknown to them until the ceremony unfolds .

The gender restriction thing is VERY different , in that a woman can be a local body / Lodge master and initiator .



The 'Colonel Sanders ' of Thelema .

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:31 AM

You realize this 'black lodge' was not OTO ... it was not an official OTO local body , nor chartered by OTO to anything .

The basic story was ... a lot of what the OTO was accused of , was in the 'old OTO' going back 30-40 years ago . After the 'hippy drug and sex era' it got cleaned up and regulated , causing rebellion of those that wanted to maintain that , some conformed and changed (for the better ) and some broke away and continued in what ever unregulated form that they did , with no body regulating them , just the individuals themselves .

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 1:35 AM

You are ? The OTO doesnt give out rituals to practice . Just the initiation rityuals to perform and the Gnostic Mass , if that is what you mean .

However they USED to do that , under some individuals giving out 'guidance' , or maybe under the personal 'mentorship' of someone , it's not an official thing though .

I took my Minerval way back in the 1990's and was given the LBRP to practice daily and basic guidelines for meditation and book reading list to study, I eventually left as I was informed that because I was not a VIII degree I should not practice any workings of that nature. Everything is so hush, hush regarding the practices of the Higher Degrees and I was not prepared to wait. I then went to the Typhonian OTO which does not charge any fees or conferring of rituals, again I left that Order due to differences of opinion.

 

[Firetree]

I took my Minerval way back in the 1990's and was given the LBRP to practice daily and basic guidelines for meditation and book reading list to study,

Yes, I remember , back in those days, they did that . My 'recommendation' (coming from some in the local group ) was a photocopied, typed sheet handed to me that came from USA ( by Bill Heidrick , if I remember ) , I think it also recommended Liber Resh as a practice . It was never part of instruction in the rituals though . This was later phased out ( well, 'down here' anyway it was ) .

A reading list is a good idea , someone taking those initiations should read up on things ; eg about other aspects and cultures of initiation , the mythology of Minerva and other things like why certain parts are included in ritual . Its all in other Crowley writings that may or may not relate directly to OTO . The problem I see here is , without supplementary and context , little might be understood , with too much one might lose focus on what the initiations are actually about and become a 'Crowleyite' .

There is no requirement in those initiation rituals to 'accept' or even know of Crowley or his rituals .

I eventually left as I was informed that because I was not a VIII degree I should not practice any workings of that nature.

Do you mean 'of that nature' regarding the LBR and reading list ? That cant be right ... you must mean 'of the nature of the VII degree . What would that be ? The 'workings' of the nature of the VII degree are ecclesiastical authority, intellectual theory of sex magick, and administrative oversight .

I cant conceive why a Minerval might want to know about two of those ... so I am supposing , as is typical , it was about sex magick ? And since VII is 'intellectual theory' I dont see how you could be restricted from looking into that 'off your own bat ' ? Perhaps you were asking questions and wanting instruction on it ?

It could have been valid advice .... did you assume you were ready to practice that at MInerval level ? There is a reason for that .... and it is about training and yes , hierarchy . Aside from the negative sides of hierarchy ( like 'the old boys ' club and 'cronyism ' ) there is the entirely valid side of not throwing people into things they are not ready, are trained for, nor have a basic stability / foundation in place .

I know many object to this ; some validly and some as an 'ego protest ' .

Everything is so hush, hush regarding the practices of the Higher Degrees and I was not prepared to wait.

Thats entirely your privilege, and as I said before , one can leave at any stage .

I then went to the Typhonian OTO which does not charge any fees or conferring of rituals, again I left that Order due to differences of opinion.

Well, ya know, you didnt miss out that much on the 'big secret ' ..... the OTO sex magick secret is a dinosaur , going way back to a western version of an eastern tantric process . Even Crowley , way back then, said in the future it will not be a secret and it won't be practiced in the primitive form it is ( was, back then ) and predicted that in the future it will be part of science and practiced in the laboratory ... he was right , that has happened .

What you more missed out on was not this 'out of date' secret , but more the progression of initiation up to V degree .... and not even that ... just finishing the Man of Earth Triad completes this specific process ... V degree is an 'extra ' .

if you want I can explain those 'sex secrets ' openly , right here . They probably will not impress you . Or maybe you already found out what they are and are already unimpressed .. and the modern scientific equivalent Crowley predicted

- here is a funny thing ... years back I watched an OTO member II degree trying to ( well, he did actually ) impress people at a bar by declaring '' We are in the OTO ,,, and we practice SEX MAGICK ! ''

... no you dont mate, not at II degree ... maybe 'off your own bat ' ( you see what I did there ) .... he didnt make it anywhere near the end of the first triad .

... and that's one of the things people complain about .... that 'type' of member . ( I mean a member of the organisation .... , I cant help myself now, I better stop )

 

[Frater M.M.]

For me , the symbolism goes somewhat like ;

The initiate is travelling in the desert (normal life ) , seeking water ( the 'water of life ' - basically 'knowledge' and 'higher teachings ' ) about ( according to published material ) ' how to make one's way in the world ' .

The first contact is with a 'Camp' - a group of like minded travelers that have a 'base of knowledge ' somewhere . You can be invited to be their 'guest' and travel with them .

if that goes well, the next stage is 'being taken to ' their 'Oasis' ; where some water is available , where you can partake of it ( ie, the first three degrees )

The next is'Lodge' like 'home base' in the town or city ; HQ ... where further mysteries (including beyond 3rd - ie beyond death ) are held and initiated .

- I'm more of an Oasis type of guy .... I like 'the wilderness' .

Yeah, if the lodge ends up with (more) bureaucracy and institutional responsibilities, I can understand that.

I’ve tried to study a bit of everything, but sexual magic is something I’ve always struggled to get into. Not because I’m a prude (though maybe I am, who knows), it’s just never really been my thing.

The only thing I can imagine worse than all of us sitting in the same room IRL arguing would be doing it without any clothes on

 

[Faria]

I’d be really interested to hear your thoughts and experiences, especially from those who have actually been involved with the O.T.O.

I have The Book of the Law and a fairly decent chunk of Book IV memorized, I produced an illustrated version of The Book of Lies, and I say this to make clear that I'm well aware of the Crowley corpus. I've had two very brief interactions with the OTO, and known many members. I will offer my thoughts and experiences.

A friend of mine out of state was taking Minerval degree, and I happened to be visiting him at the time. We showed up at the oasis meeting along with six other minervals. I sat and talked with them for about an hour. Whereas the OTO body was insistent that they discuss OTO-specific topics, I found it more engaging to ask them about themselves and their goals, and the minerval group became very quickly cemented together, leading the OTO people to (mistakenly) believe that I was one of their higher-ups from whereverthehell. Finally they were all about to pack it out to the ritual area, and I happened to ask what should I do, and they flipped out about me being a non-member. I offered to pay the minerval fee for the others and take my own degree, and the answer was that I had to spend something like 40 days prior in planning. So I found a random person and went to see the South park movie and never saw any of those people again.

Second time, in Las Vegas, was looking for some sort of organized body doing the Gnostic Mass. Bunch of fat nerds in a warehouse! Although the Gnostic Mass explicitly states that children are present in the ceremony, these people had some justification about "child-like" adults being cast in those roles, citing legal issues and apparently ignoring the also-explicitly-stated rules in the mass about alterations in "savage countries" where the laws were against them. So again, never saw them again.

In between these interactions, I met half a dozen smoking hot women whose experience was completely overshadowed by sexual exploitation ranging from "we can't wait to see you naked, let's fast track your degrees" kind of stuff to full-on sex trafficking. My opinion, which I admit is based on limited experience, is that the group is largely governed by men and that good-looking women are treated as an asset property rather than as equal participants. I assume that there are attractive OTO women who have not had that sort of experience, but I have not met them.

 

[agloval]

I have The Book of the Law and a fairly decent chunk of Book IV memorized, I produced an illustrated version of The Book of Lies, and I say this to make clear that I'm well aware of the Crowley corpus. I've had two very brief interactions with the OTO, and known many members. I will offer my thoughts and experiences.

A friend of mine out of state was taking Minerval degree, and I happened to be visiting him at the time. We showed up at the oasis meeting along with six other minervals. I sat and talked with them for about an hour. Whereas the OTO body was insistent that they discuss OTO-specific topics, I found it more engaging to ask them about themselves and their goals, and the minerval group became very quickly cemented together, leading the OTO people to (mistakenly) believe that I was one of their higher-ups from whereverthehell. Finally they were all about to pack it out to the ritual area, and I happened to ask what should I do, and they flipped out about me being a non-member. I offered to pay the minerval fee for the others and take my own degree, and the answer was that I had to spend something like 40 days prior in planning. So I found a random person and went to see the South park movie and never saw any of those people again.

Second time, in Las Vegas, was looking for some sort of organized body doing the Gnostic Mass. Bunch of fat nerds in a warehouse! Although the Gnostic Mass explicitly states that children are present in the ceremony, these people had some justification about "child-like" adults being cast in those roles, citing legal issues and apparently ignoring the also-explicitly-stated rules in the mass about alterations in "savage countries" where the laws were against them. So again, never saw them again.

In between these interactions, I met half a dozen smoking hot women whose experience was completely overshadowed by sexual exploitation ranging from "we can't wait to see you naked, let's fast track your degrees" kind of stuff to full-on sex trafficking. My opinion, which I admit is based on limited experience, is that the group is largely governed by men and that good-looking women are treated as an asset property rather than as equal participants. I assume that there are attractive OTO women who have not had that sort of experience, but I have not met them.

Thanks for sharing all that. Sounds like you had some pretty grim experiences, especially what you mentioned about the women. To be honest, I’d wondered if that sort of thing went on in the OTO, but I think it’s probably more a wider issue of patriarchy, ego and people using power to take advantage of others.
Still, it’s pretty fucked up to hear it happening to that extent.

 

[Firetree]

I have The Book of the Law and a fairly decent chunk of Book IV memorized, I produced an illustrated version of The Book of Lies,

Wow ! I'd love to see some of that !

and I say this to make clear that I'm well aware of the Crowley corpus. I've had two very brief interactions with the OTO, and known many members. I will offer my thoughts and experiences.

A friend of mine out of state was taking Minerval degree, and I happened to be visiting him at the time. We showed up at the oasis meeting along with six other minervals. I sat and talked with them for about an hour. Whereas the OTO body was insistent that they discuss OTO-specific topics, I found it more engaging to ask them about themselves and their goals, and the minerval group became very quickly cemented together, leading the OTO people to (mistakenly) believe that I was one of their higher-ups from whereverthehell.

They dont sound very together ! Did they not check their 'belief ' ? I can relate to two expereinces like that , one below and this ; I went to the main Masonic Lodge in Sydney , lloked around a bit , wandered here and there , no restrictions , I saw all sorts of things , including a sign oddering tours . I asked about that and one was arranged for me right then . I was taken around and shown all sorts of things and had deep discussions with my guide ... until I made a blunder and he asked how could I NOT know that if I was a Mason . I replied I wasn't a Mason ... everyone had just assumed I was . Pretty embarrasing for him / them .... no testing or even questions before they did that .

( A while later I tried to bluff my way into a banquet , but got busted by security ... a shame ; the food looked great ! )

Finally they were all about to pack it out to the ritual area, and I happened to ask what should I do, and they flipped out about me being a non-member. I offered to pay the minerval fee for the others and take my own degree, and the answer was that I had to spend something like 40 days prior in planning. So I found a random person and went to see the South park movie and never saw any of those people again.

I was at one similar there were some visitors also there ( who had not arranged for Minerval initiation , nor considered it , nor even knew what was going on) who sat in on a talk like you described . Afterwards before the start the intitiator commented that there was a few of them and to put your hand up if you were doing your Minerval, so he could 'put a face ' to the name . Two of the other people ( must have liked what they heard ... or were just 'going along with things ' ... whaaaaat ? ) put their hand up . I pointed out the discrepancy , I am pretty sure if I hadnt they would have been ..... 'walk ins ' .

( Maybe THEY needed the 40 days of planning )

Second time, in Las Vegas, was looking for some sort of organized body doing the Gnostic Mass. Bunch of fat nerds in a warehouse! Although the Gnostic Mass explicitly states that children are present in the ceremony, these people had some justification about "child-like" adults being cast in those roles, citing legal issues and apparently ignoring the also-explicitly-stated rules in the mass about alterations in "savage countries" where the laws were against them. So again, never saw them again.

Urk ..... I never really got into the Mass 'as such' .... it should not be done by 'fat nerds' in a wharehouse , it should be done by 'advanced ritualists ' in an EGC temple . I thought I was too 'fat nerdy' and my temple too 'wharehousey' for it .

This might seem prejudice and judgmental .... but we are talking a 'high lodge ritual' here , and the ideas of 'padgent' and 'sumptousness' , IMO, are part of that .... acccording to 'Nuit' .... I just dont see the 'naked brilliance of the voluptuous night sky ' in a dirty wharehouse with some dudes in sheets reading off scripts . An opinion I was not popular for .

( I decided not to contrast with the nerdy wharehouse type photos .... people might get even more pissed off with me .

In between these interactions, I met half a dozen smoking hot women whose experience was completely overshadowed by sexual exploitation ranging from "we can't wait to see you naked, let's fast track your degrees" kind of stuff to full-on sex trafficking.

I found it an 'iccky' and embarrassing thing ; in some places there were hardly any women involved and when turned up , various guys would be 'hoping to have her as a priestess ' . There was either a 'rush' to perform the mass ( dont know why ! ) or just an interest in women . My local group was very different , It had a lot of women in it and a woman as 'master' and two women initiators ( and one man initiator ) . Sex roles and past times were fairly equal and open . 'Full on sex trafficking ' ??? ! That sounds illegal as well !

My opinion, which I admit is based on limited experience, is that the group is largely governed by men and that good-looking women are treated as an asset property rather than as equal participants.

Even after what I described , in my experience, none of the women in either cases would 'allow' themselves to be treated as property . In my group , with a lot of woman , no way would you have got away with that . In other groups, it was more a 'wannabe' energy with the women ... I think they found that a bit pathetic and boring .

I also notice this is the case with men in other areas . Many men dont seem to know how to relate to women and go about, in their attempts , to just 'put them off ' . I saw this to great extent when I worked in a public hospital , I got on great with the nurses ... other guys seemed mystified ; ''How come they like YOU ... of all people ?''

'' Because I dont get drunk and yell out to them ''show us yer tits' and then hide, like school boy , I suggest things like having fun together and becasue my 'end game' isnt to get sex , they sense that , relax and enjoy having fun '' ... dhurrrrrr !

( Poor guys , they have trouble working it out sometimes )

I assume that there are attractive OTO women who have not had that sort of experience, but I have not met them.

I dont doubt some of these dynamics exist , as they exist in all sorts of groups and the workplace .... maybe thats why Masons have 'men only' lodges ? But I really didnt witness, in my experience, this 'exploitation of women ' .... maybe its a cultural thing / national difference ?

In my indigenous teachings , men and women's 'Business' is kept separate .

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Here is a little AI piece on this trend in the traditions ;

Spoiler

what started this trend

The "trend" of admitting women into the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.) from its inception was driven by a combination of theological focus on sex magic, Eastern philosophical influences, and a deliberate rebellion against mainstream Freemasonry.

1. The Central Focus on Sex Magic and Tantra
Unlike traditional fraternal orders, the O.T.O. was built explicitly around the practice of "sex magic". The founders, Carl Kellner and Theodor Reuss, synthesized Western occult traditions with concepts derived from Indian Tantra. [

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,

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]

• Because their core spiritual framework relied on the polarity, union, and balancing of male and female energies, women were ontologically necessary to the order's core practices. You could not perform or advance through the higher degrees of their magical system without both sexes participating. [
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2. Rebellion Against Traditional Freemasonry
The O.T.O. was originally envisioned as an Academia Masonica (a Masonic academy) that could study higher esoteric degrees. However, mainstream European Freemasonry strictly excluded women from its lodges. [

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]

• The founders of the O.T.O. wanted to build an institution focused on alchemy, Rosicrucianism, and the
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  without what they saw as the outdated social restrictions of mainstream masonry. Admitting women on equal terms was a deliberate departure to establish a more modern, inclusive mystery school. [
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3. The Shift to Thelema and Androgynous Theology
When Aleister Crowley took structural control, he fully reorganised the O.T.O. around his new religious philosophy, Thelema, and its core text,

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. [

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]

• The New Aeon: Thelema proclaims the dawn of a new spiritual age (the
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  ) which celebrates the fusion of male and female principles. [
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• Baphometian Androgyny: Crowley heavily incorporated the concept of Baphomet—interpreted as an ideal, divine androgyne that perfectly balances masculine and feminine qualities. [
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• The Gnostic Mass: In 1913, Crowley composed the
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  (
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  ), which became the central public ritual of the O.T.O.. The ritual specifically requires both a Priest and a Priestess, ensuring women held highly visible, irreplaceable roles in the ecclesiastical structure of the order. [
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4. Cultural Pushback Against Victorian Prudery
The late 19th and early 20th centuries saw a broader cultural counter-movement against strict Victorian and Christian moral codes. Early O.T.O. leaders actively sought to dismantle notions of original sin and sexual shame. By elevating sexual expression to a sacred, magical rite, they naturally positioned women as equal spiritual agents rather than passive observers