Love Spell

[Mannimarco]

It's true that people are weak-willed, but like... if someone is physically weak, that doesn't give me the right to beat them up. So if I'm stronger-willed than someone, that doesn't give me the right to deliberately manipulate them to my own ends.

Your comparison is nonsense. Loving me harms no one. Violently assaulting someone does. These things have nothing to do with each other.

Most if not all magick that has any effect on another person involves having a stronger will than them. And any magick that has any effect on another person, even if its not aimed at them specifically, is manipulating them to your own ends to some degree. Deities, and many other entities, do this to humans continuously.

I don't care what you believe, or do. But don't tell me that i'm morally wrong for not obeying your theories, or tell me that i'm harming people based on nothing but your made up assumptions.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Would it be black Magick, immoral or unethical for magicians to cause Trump to love people romantically and idealistically?
...and just remember ... When I build the wall .. it's just cause I love all of you so very much...

 

[pixel_fortune]

Loving me harms no one. Violently assaulting someone does.

I agree with that - I was only disagreeing with the part where you said that, because people could be manipulated by the Coke and Oreo companies, it's fine to manipulate them.

"It's fine because it doesn't hurt them" is a good argument. "It's fine because it's very easy to do" is not a good argument.

When you make a comparison, you bring up an example that's the same in one aspect and different in other. The comparison isn't between the entire situations, it's between the one similar aspect. Don't get offended by the parts of the comparison that aren't relevant.

And any magick that has any effect on another person, even if its not aimed at them specifically, is manipulating them to your own ends to some degree.

It's a good point - most people have no problem with job magic, which manipulates the hiring manager

I suppose the difference to me is the relationship - I have a much higher standard for honesty etc in how you should treat someone in a romantic relationship vs a boss.

This comparison has shown me that it's not actually a baseline matter of principle that it's not okay to manipulate people - it depends on context

It's more like how I feel about theft - shoplifting from a corporate chain vs from a local independent store vs stealing money from a date's wallet.

 

[Emperor Time]

Would it be black Magick, immoral or unethical for magicians to cause Trump to love people romantically and idealistically?
...and just remember ... When I build the wall .. it's just cause I love all of you so very much...

Thanks since I needed that good laugh.

 

[Mannimarco]

I agree with that - I was only disagreeing with the part where you said that, because people could be manipulated by the Coke and Oreo companies, it's fine to manipulate them.

Your pompous high horse just keeps getting higher.
It is fine to manipulate them, whether they are being manipulated by a hundred other factors or not. Most if not all of magick, human society, religions, and even the gods and magickal systems, are all manipulating people on a constant basis. If manipulating people was somehow "wrong" according to the universe, this would not be allowed, yet here we are. You can make up whatever rules you want for yourself, and tell yourself you are better than other people because of them, but they have exactly zero application to anyone else, and all you're likely to gain is an insufferable sense of self righteousness.

My point was that people have little to no actual free will already, so whether love spells impose on someone's free will or not is irrelevent.

"It's fine because it doesn't hurt them" is a good argument. "It's fine because it's very easy to do" is not a good argument.

Its not an argument at all, since there is nothing to argue. Your authority to judge me or anyone else is exactly nothing.

When you make a comparison, you bring up an example that's the same in one aspect and different in other. The comparison isn't between the entire situations, it's between the one similar aspect. Don't get offended by the parts of the comparison that aren't relevant.

Your entire comparison is not relevant. Physical beatings are not the same in any aspect to my love spells. You're comparing apples to suspension bridges.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Sorry to interrupt @Mannimarco and @pixel_fortune ... What argument do you two have with each other? Perhaps a fifth wheel, perhaps a tricycle out of a bicycle can be made. In other words, maybe one of us can interject to bring you two into agreement. It seems currently like an argument between Dion Fortune and Aleister Crowley, on whether black Magick is permissible. Correct?

 

[pixel_fortune]

Your authority to judge me or anyone else is exactly nothing.

Pretty much everyone on this thread has said they think love spells are unethical. I don't know why you're singling me out as unusually judgemental. Okay, I was an asshole in that other thread - it wasn't deliberate, but it was careless, and I get why it pissed you off.

But in this thread - if anything, I'm judging LESS than anyone else, since I'm taking your line of reasoning seriously and said your point about all magic being manipulative had caused me to rethink my position.

What argument do you two have with each other?

Literally none? People are debating whether love spells are ethical. Most people have said they aren't. It only seems to bother Manninarco when I say it.
---
To return to the topic, I think the point Mannimarco made about other magic (job hunting magic for eg) also being manipulative is a good one. I think that has to be answered if I'm claiming love spells are unethical but job spells are fine

Some job magic is luck based ("make my resume appear at the top of the pile") but some of it is definitely akin to love spells, trying to get the hirer to like you more than they naturally would.

But I think most of us DO think that's different - is it just because it's the workplace vs romance?

Maybe it's also because interviews aren't actually an accurate test of whether you're good at a job - so you're manipulating an irrelevant aspect

Whereas someone loving you is a core aspect of a romantic relationship

So maybe it should be ethical to enchant for making a good impression on a first date - bypassing initial prejudices - but not their feelings towards you once they know you.

Another aspect is that you need money to survive, but you don't need a girlfriend to survive so the ends has less power to justify the means

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

I once masturbated to my boss extending my contract when I was not responsible nor knowledgeable to do so, only to have it extended twice (thanks Xstenze!).
Was it ethical? No.
Was it warranted? I was fighting to keep my survival needs met, and better then the backstabbers trying to secure my title.
Was it black Magick? Some might say so.
Was it manipulative? You betcha.
Because we're all self important enough to fight in any way we can to survive in an ice cold world.
So love spells being unethical? Maybe if it's a office romance with your supervisor or someone of lesser rank.
Then it about a struggle or fight for power.
Is it black Magick? You betcha, which is why it pisses the RHP off.

 

[Emperor Time]

I feel that a love spell won't even work unless the person has feelings for you to begin with.

 

[Diluculo_DelFuego]

Agree. Enter the Goetia stage left.

 

[Mannimarco]

Literally none? People are debating whether love spells are ethical. Most people have said they aren't. It only seems to bother Manninarco when I say it.

I don't know why you're singling me out as unusually judgemental.

Well gee, I don't know, maybe its because you are the only one quoting me directly and attacking me personally? Yet again?
Everyone else is free to be as insufferably obnoxious as you, and I promise to be just as bothered by them.

Okay, I was an asshole in that other thread - it wasn't deliberate, but it was careless, and I get why it pissed you off.

No sh*t, Sherlock

 

[Taudefindi]

I think the biggest issue with love spells is that you get two varieties of them.
One that is about "you" and one that is about "the other(s)".

For "you" you can have spells that:

• enhance your charisma
• make you seem more attractive
• give you lucky chances at love(like meeting a great person by chance)

For "the other(s)" you can have spells that:

• make them more willing/open to you
• implant on them the desire of you
• try to merge their path with yours

One group clearly seems more benign than the other, despite both in the end working towards helping you get love.

I feel that a love spell won't even work unless the person has feelings for you to begin with.

Maybe it might work not to make them love you romantically, but change their hate for you for love in a platonic way, making them become more friendly to you.If they have good feelings towards you, yeah I can see how a love spell might end up enhancing those into something more.
Remember that the opposite of love isn't hate, but indifference.

 

[Emperor Time]

I see and that does make a lot of sense.

 

[Xenophon]

Would it be black Magick, immoral or unethical for magicians to cause Trump to love people romantically and idealistically?
...and just remember ... When I build the wall .. it's just cause I love all of you so very much...

You are right: it would be unethical to cause Trump to welcome a defacto invasion of his country. As it is treason for you to condone it. What happens when you run out of taxpayers to play parasite on? At some point even the bankers will turn off the tap.