Moderately More Catholic and "Abrahamist" Grimoire Evocation

[MorganBlack]

Hear, hear! Totally agreed too many have a dry intellectual approach probably from being inflicted with an overactive, hyper-categorizing left-hemisphere. If the universe is a quantum reality that reorders itself based on the "story" you tell - which I think it is - then you must treat your own life as a laboratory.

In my Daimonic-Neoplatonic view, these are all stories that take on a quantum reality of their own. It does not mean they are "not true." Read Patrick Harpur and Bernardo Kastrup for more discussions on this front. Harpur’s work on the Anima Mundi (World Soul) suggests, and I also agree, that there is a third space between "Matter" and "Mind." This is the Daimonic Realm, which can also be called the Imaginal, or the Spirit World in indigenous understandings. Stories are not "just in your head," but they aren't "out there" like a rock or a ham sandwich is either.

So pick a good story and the universe will reorder, and the daimons themselves to confirm that for you. They're always half-you. (But not 100%. Sorry, Lon.) So pick a nice one. Choose stories that makes you joyous, happy, creative, forgiving, and kind rather than cramped, nit-picking, bitter, angry, and sullen. The Catholic myths and stories work this way for me, but there are others I like depending on what "layer" of reality I'm interacting with.

But if people need to use their imagination to torture themselves and attack others online for 'wrong-think,' that is a Hell of their own making. I think a lot of what appear as silly internet arguments about trivia are their own intellecual process looking for an escape from their own locked-down brain. They think need to achieve absolute conviction what they say is true, often by negating all other viewpoints. Cowards, basically.

The classic Law of Attraction idea that has filtered into magic through modern paganism and other New Age vectors, gave everyone the idea you have to 100% totally "believe" or the magic won't work. Dammit, folks, that is what ceremony is for! We believe what we DO. The world already IS imagination, in my view. Western magic is "Belief by doing' we believe what we act out and what we say, the stories we tell. There is a lot of hind-brain and instinctual linking-up going on once you get your body involved and moving.

There is not point to having a totalizing worldview up front, one where you solve all the mysteries of the Universe , or what the daimons really really "are" Sketch things out with a cosmo-conception the best you can and expect it to update as more and better information comes it. Repeat.

 

[cormundum]

Hear, hear! Totally agreed too many have a dry intellectual approach probably from being inflicted with an overactive, hyper-categorizing left-hemisphere. If the universe is a quantum reality that reorders itself based on the "story" you tell - which I think it is - then you must treat your own life as a laboratory.

In my Daimonic-Neoplatonic view, these are all stories that take on a quantum reality of their own. It does not mean they are "not true." Read Patrick Harpur and Bernardo Kastrup for more discussions on this front. Harpur’s work on the Anima Mundi (World Soul) suggests, and I also agree, that there is a third space between "Matter" and "Mind." This is the Daimonic Realm, which can also be called the Imaginal, or the Spirit World in indigenous understandings. Stories are not "just in your head," but they aren't "out there" like a rock or a ham sandwich is either.

So pick a good story and the universe will reorder, and the daimons themselves to confirm that for you. They're always half-you. (But not 100%. Sorry, Lon.) So pick a nice one. Choose stories that makes you joyous, happy, creative, forgiving, and kind rather than cramped, nit-picking, bitter, angry, and sullen. The Catholic myths and stories work this way for me, but there are others I like depending on what "layer" of reality I'm interacting with.

But if people need to use their imagination to torture themselves and attack others online for 'wrong-think,' that is a Hell of their own making. I think a lot of what appear as silly internet arguments about trivia are their own intellecual process looking for an escape from their own locked-down brain. They think need to achieve absolute conviction what they say is true, often by negating all other viewpoints. Cowards, basically.

The classic Law of Attraction idea that has filtered into magic through modern paganism and other New Age vectors, gave everyone the idea you have to 100% totally "believe" or the magic won't work. Dammit, folks, that is what ceremony is for! We believe what we DO. The world already IS imagination, in my view. Western magic is "Belief by doing' we believe what we act out and what we say, the stories we tell. There is a lot of hind-brain and instinctual linking-up going on once you get your body involved and moving.

There is not point to having a totalizing worldview up front, one where you solve all the mysteries of the Universe , or what the daimons really really "are" Sketch things out with a cosmo-conception the best you can and expect it to update as more and better information comes it. Repeat.

We seem to be pretty much on the same page. People tell stories that their sub-conscious spins into the world around them, which is then manifest by the spirits that surround us. There is a teaching from Rebbe Nachman of Breslov that whenever one has a thought, his lips move and it is spoken, whether he realizes it or not. This I think serves as a great explanation for how Law of Assumption and Attraction work for people, if you consider what is written in the Book of Abramelin that the spirits do not obey thoughts, but only spoken words. Many of us are speaking/singing all sorts of garbage into our lives and it has nothing to do with anything other than our own thoughts and assumptions.

My old man would always say, "If you can or you can't, you're right." That lesson was hammered into my head from my teenaged years and I've held onto it as a principle to live by, especially with the magickal stuff. I'm pretty convinced that most practitioners tell themselves constantly that they can't have such-and-such success because Magick Pope X says you can't, and Frater Fakus Latinus would have done it if it were possible, so it most certainly can't be.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

"Let us pass the ball back to the starting line: we need an evocation text to work on, one we can dissect intellectually and scientifically. I have some fundamental questions: Has anyone truly looked at the lengthy evocations in the Keys of Solomon and the names mentioned within them? Are they accurate? Do they actually work? Have they ever succeeded? In our tradition, we possess conjurations and summonings that are real and carry tangible impact. Is there anything in Western sciences and texts that parallels the 'Berhatiah,' for example?"

 

[Nerone]

Though it may deviate from the thread matter at hand a little bit, there is something I wanted to comment on quickly;

Modern magic tends to frame itself as either highly mechanical (using 'energy') - with a bunch of silly busy work to "Awaken your Jedi super Powers" - (looking at you Franz Bardon) - or as 'pagan' in opposition to Catholicism, whereas I simply see expressions of the One Thing. 'Worship' also is a strange word here. I see it as an approach toward Theosis. The emotion invested allows us to get 'caught up' in the experience and then amazing stuff happens.

I don't think it's entirely fair to throw the good František Bardon under the bus like that. There is certainly a technical element to magical practice which one may categorize under the heading of "Mercurial remediation", or, in simpler terms, a left-brain style of training of tedious refinement. It has nothing to do with the right-brain aspect of divine frenzy, faith and myth immersion - valuable as these may be - and while such a technical training may seem one-sided and limited in it's own right, it does nourish an essential skillset which I think shouldn't be slept on.

I have had the opportunity to be in the private classes of Jason Read, author of "Practical Chinese Magic" and "Fox Magic: Handbook of Chinese Witchcraft and Alchemy in the Fox Tradition", and his position as a navy guy stationed out in China to marry into a family of folk Maoshan practitioners and publish these teachings in English is quite unique. His books deviate significantly from what he teaches in private though, which is quite unfortunate. It's a remnant of the "milk for the babies, meat for the men", "one thing for insiders, another for outsiders" type of mentality.

Maoshan is quite unique in that it combines the technical alchemical "Qi Gong" aspect with the mythological religious aspect of Theurgy. It does place a fairly strong emphasis on the more technical, left-brain aspects of magic, where the efficiency of a given practice is strongly dependent on left-brain fundamentals such as concentration, imagination and voidness of spirit, these being related to an understanding of Qi and how to move and manipulate it by intention - but it does not fail to neglect the right-brain aspect of prayers, faith and myth immersion.

From the perspective of Maoshan, a criticism that you will find is that of the modern Qigong movement - that it has become, after the Cultural Revolution in China, a series of left-brain, technical "Awaken your Jedi super Powers" type of practice, completely neglecting the right-brain aspects of it's Theurgical elements of it's ancestors.

But Theurgy without technicality is just so-and-so methinks.

It reminds me of watching an interview with Billy Sheehan on playing the bass guitar. Even as a skilled world class musician, he would practice the same tedious exercises of plucking the strings. EEEEE. AAAAA. DDDDD. GGGGG. For hours on end. I remember watching it and thinking: "that's the secret?!"

 

[techniquea2z]

I've gained some valuable insights here.

As one who's entry into practice of magick was thrust upon him after an erroneous decision, I've found the divide between total submission to the Monad (in the context of Catholicism) and upsetting the divine hierarchy as structured by God (by evocating and communing with celestial beings) to be a tough decision.

Especially as inaction simply encourages control over one's being to another will -- aside from my own.

Well, they are, but this is a huge topic and is getting into the practical weeds more than I intended here. This post is more about Catholic mysticism that is usually missed completely, probably because the mecantile reality of the Anglophone magical publishing means the kind of people who buy magic books will never buy a book speaking like I am here.

I can just hear them now, "What is this "God" crap? I thought Magic was like on anime. Chi balls, and yelling. If I wanted that I'd still be in Sunday school being bullied"

This was the source of my misguidance, as an avid anime fan. It's occult influence runs deep, whilst it's true affects are dramatized and glamourized -- the depths of it's influence on the human soul and physical body are understated.

In any case, I find this scholarly debate engaging. I'm actually open to learning more on the works of the grimoires of old, that had more Catholic influence (ie. Turiel), or anything that may be locked in the Vatican's archives.

 

[MorganBlack]

Thank you for that, Nerone! You're speaking my language in how you describe energy practices. I like your progressive approach to it. So when you "breathe in energy," you aren't necessarily pulling in plasma from the atmosphere, you are teaching your Nephesh (body based soul) to respond to your Will. Is that what you're saying? I dig it.

RE: Bardon. I try never to come down too hard on anyone’s practice or understanding. I read Bardon after I had a successful Goetia practice and didn't see anything useful in his writing except a bunch of busy work added from his own worldview. I had also watched modern pagan folks waste a lot of time doing Asian energy exercises, trying to develop siddhis, like setting paper on fire.

Due to temperament I am more sacramental and, uh, 'Neville Goddardian' in my models. There is no energy in Neville's Law of Assumption either; everything is just Imagination. I'm a professional artist, concept designer, and art director, and my brain is wired to be more sacramental and immersive. Visualizing lights, darks, and colors is just my day job.

I don't 'do' energy much, but I do often get effects that feel like energy from my practices. The Headless Rite will always set me on fire, so I think I'm coming down with the flu, but then I remember, oh, right, it always does that.

OK, not saying anyone has to accept this, but I 'put' energy in a Daimonic model as a metaphor for Mind (being the Divine or Spirit) interacting with Matter, in this case... me. It's an indicator, a signpost rather than a causal agent as many treat it by trying to walk on water or amateur pyrotechnics.

I also dislike magic being treated as a battery (or a too much like a skill, but that is another story) . So that you have to practice and practice in a spiritual grind to develop a bigger and bigger capacitance, and move from being an A-cell to a D-cell. It's too Newtonian, to my sense of things. In my practice, the 'inner sense' isn't a result of building up a battery, but it is a direct shift in reality. If I am the Author, I don't need to understand the chemical composition of the ink to change the ending of the story. Just change the sentence. While I respect the those who want to study the physics of the building, the Goddardian immersive approach of simply 'occupying the state' of being in the finished room does the work.

I think having some structured approach is good, but I think it can be almost anything. I did the A.'.A.'. system, and I keep a deliberately non-visionary Zen meditation practice when I want to get away from it all.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 6:06 PM

Adding for Jan 6, Three Kings’ Day 2026

The blessing uses chalk to inscribe the year, as well as the initials of the Wise Men, over the lintel of the front door, will be 20 + C + M + B + 26.

See Dr. Sasha Chaitow on how keeping the goblins at bay becomes the ritual cleansings on the Feast of the Epiphany

Midwinter Fire Rituals and Exorcising Evil: Thar be Goblins

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For more info see Dr. Alexander Cummins:
A Book of the Magi: Lore, Prayers, and Spellcraft of the Three Holy Kings

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Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 6:23 PM

Thar be Goblins! Part 1/4
by Dr. Sasha Chaitow

This link has a working index to all 4 parts.

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about the Kallikantzaroi. the goblins who ancend out of the Undewrold during the 12 Days of Chistmas

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 6:35 PM

Grr. Again...
As I was saying. What I like when you read about the full backstory of Kallikantzaroi, the goblins who ascend out of the Underworld during the 12 Days of Christmas, is that it puts the 'danger' solidly back into an animist understanding (in the world) rather than in a theological 'Satan' framework. In some regional variations, the Kallikantzaroi aren't just "evil" - they're blind, clumsy, or easily distracted, which fits the idea of them being natural forces rather than a calculating, malicious deity like Satan in a theological 'Satanic' framework where evil is an omnipresent, moralized force.

While traditional Catholic liturgy often relies on the language of spiritual deliverance (e.g., 'Save us from Satan'), but the mythos of the Kallikantzaroi feels more grounded. It suggests that we need protection not from a tempter of souls, but from the chaotic, seasonal forces that stalk the periphery during the darkest days of the year.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 6:35 PM

Grr. Again...
As I was saying. What I like when you read about the full backstory of Kallikantzaroi, the goblins who ascend out of the Underworld during the 12 Days of Christmas, is that it puts the 'danger' solidly back into an animist understanding (in the world) rather than in a theological 'Satan' framework. In some regional variations, the Kallikantzaroi aren't just "evil" - they're blind, clumsy, or easily distracted, which fits the idea of them being natural forces rather than a calculating, malicious deity like Satan in a theological 'Satanic' framework where evil is an omnipresent, moralized force.

While traditional Catholic liturgy often relies on the language of spiritual deliverance (e.g., 'Save us from Satan'), but the mythos of the Kallikantzaroi feels more grounded. It suggests that we need protection not from a tempter of souls, but from the chaotic, seasonal forces that stalk the periphery during the darkest days of the year.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 6:38 PM

I'm feeling stalked by dark forces right now just tying to post this without silly errors.

 

[julio]

The issue with evaluations of not only JSK’s work, but his and most of his peers’ work, is how forgiving these evaluations are about the fact that these people were adamant that their approach was better / more evolved / “less chained to Abrahamism”, etc, back in the Facebook days circa 2015-2018. Anyone is free to prefer certain things, but the sheer level of dishonesty in making those statements while offering no proof whatsoever (and for those who knew a thing or two about their lives…) is staggering. I guess most of their audience want/need to believe what they said. As some stated above, much was stated as certainties based on nothing other than something that they’d wish it were true.

Not to mention the many, many false statements based solely on imaginary facts regarding how Solomonic magic works in New World Traditions, which on countless occasions suited as padding for explaining why their own brand of neopaganism is so great.

People are welcome to dip into Solomonic manuscripts and do what they wish with the information they find. And I guess that adults are free to believe that other adults are casually evoking spirits to the point of being granted favors by doing not even 5% of what a manuscript suggests.

 

[MorganBlack]

many, many false statements based solely on imaginary facts

I think that is ending right about now. I pay attention to folks in the Demonolatry community and many (not all) are rediscovering how effective the grimoires are after having poor results (and having discovered the "daemonic enns" are made up horseshit).

Modern paganism should be seen as a subset of the New Age movement, one wrapped in 19th-century romantic poetry instead of Theosophy's symbolic ladders, or 1950s sci-fi UFO stories of loving space overlords. The Freudian dynamics were the same, but had a huge resurgence in the past 14 years when Neptune entered Pisces. Neptune in Pisces corresponds to the New Age movement.

This.

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The dream of "a life of carefree abundance, ease, polyamorous sex orgies (with our twin flames and soul-mates of course), and never-ending vacations on indigenous lands were right there..."

Neptune recently left Pisces a few months ago, where it's been since 2011. During that time, the Mass Dream has been operating under the New-Age-Pagan-Wellness dream, which ended, finally, a few months ago. It was a fine dream as far as it went, but the past 14 years too many people have been spent trying to grow occult hustle second incomes while the dream was alive. Now it’s rolling on as Neptune went into Aries, so I imagine everyone will be doing Zen and teaching Kendo, and teaching Kata Bootcamps in the park while dreaming of being the Jungian Hero Archetype. Frankly, I'm glad the hordes are moving on finally and we can get back to business.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 3:42 PM

The excellent Folk Catholic / Verum / plus podcast Radio Free Golgotha.

Episode Thirty One: The Feast of Saint Anthony the Great

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Here Jesse Hathaway Diaz and Al Cummins discuss St. Anthony, but also as as part of the 'Dead Magicians' segment they talk the legacy of Jake Stratton-Kent (JSK), Al's friendship with him, highlighting a side of Jake that many might not have seen, his genuine willingness to have his mind changed.

Yeah, 'early' Jake was known for being combative, but I suggest he was largely reacting to the rigid 20th-century modern magic orthodoxy that dominated the scene at the time. He faced significant pushback from the established guard. For instance, I recall Donald Michael Kraig, writing in a Llewellyn magazine, dismissively labeling Brujeria as 'stupid magic'. That ridiculous comment hasn't not aged well.

Apparently Jesse, who is initiated in Quimbanda (whose terreiro, ritual house or temple, I do not know. ), once read Jake the riot act over drinks about incorrect blanket statements Jake had made about New World traditions. Rather than becoming defensive, Jake showed himself entirely willing to update his operative models based on new information.

 

[cormundum]

Episode Thirty One: The Feast of Saint Anthony the Great

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Here Jesse Hathaway Diaz and Al Cummins discuss St. Anthony, but also as as part of the 'Dead Magicians' segment they talk the legacy of Jake Stratton-Kent (JSK), Al's friendship with him, highlighting a side of Jake that many might not have seen, his genuine willingness to have his mind changed.

Yeah, 'early' Jake was known for being combative, but I suggest he was largely reacting to the rigid 20th-century modern magic orthodoxy that dominated the scene at the time. He faced significant pushback from the established guard. For instance, I recall Donald Michael Kraig, writing in a Llewellyn magazine, dismissively labeling Brujeria as 'stupid magic'. That ridiculous comment hasn't not aged well.

Apparently Jesse, who is initiated in Quimbanda (whose terreiro, ritual house or temple, I do not know. ), once read Jake the riot act over drinks about incorrect blanket statements Jake had made about New World traditions. Rather than becoming defensive, Jake showed himself entirely willing to update his operative models based on new information.

Kent was a complete asshole right up until he was reduced to the vegetable state he died in. I had interactions with him not long before all that went down (within a year or two, at least), and he was still a tremendous jerk who refused to engage in good-will argument about his positions. I have zero respect for him and hope he enjoys rotting in Hell with the demons he swore allegiance to.

 

[MorganBlack]

I hear yah. It sounds like you were done dirty in a public a way, Cormundum.

I'm friends with Brother Moloch (Darrin), going back to 2004 or so, and he's a totally combative asshole - and he’ll admit to it. I sometimes think the personality type that becomes a magician is that of a 'cosmic asshole' - here at least, in the States, it's further exacerbated by the social solitude from an Anglophone culture this all this magic stuff is outright trash, or evil. In the 1990's I have had other magicians start yelling and screaming at me for what was at the time my early Verum practice. Sometime you just have to stick to your guns, and say fuck off. .. but that toxic shit leaves marks, sometimes.

I agree that the whole 'demons are pagan gods' trope, once localized into WitchTok and other shallow practices, has of late been taken a bit too literally. It’s become another shibboleth and soundbite, usually said to make the speaker appear more authoritative than they really are. I ususally see it as lip-srerive to a cultire that thinks they are correct by sheer dint of numbers, that begs for acknowledgment of the speaker’s 'true insight' into the nature of reality itself. A bold statement and flex. My resort might be, 'We don't even know what pagan gods are, so really that's not helpful. Go away now.'

Myths and stories are for us to get a handle on our experiences with them, and I think there are many 'layers' to the Infernal Hierarchy. I’ve had them show up looking like completely Lovecraftian, eldritch terrors beyond our comprehension - which I think is the fucking point. Not that I think they are literally Lovecraftin critters, but in my personal gnosis that is quite the dramatic statement they make.

 

[julio]

I’m in a mood today, so I’ll engage. Apologies for hijacking the thread. I hope that this is useful in some way.

Here Jesse Hathaway Diaz and Al Cummins discuss St. Anthony, but also as as part of the 'Dead Magicians' segment they talk the legacy of Jake Stratton-Kent (JSK), Al's friendship with him, highlighting a side of Jake that many might not have seen, his genuine willingness to have his mind changed.

This dynamics is rotten: Jake would put things forth as undeniable truths, both in books and social media. A lot of people would believe him and to date, you can still find his gargage ideas floating around. Easily more than half of the time when proven wrong, he’d insist that he wasn’t and then proceed to flame whoever thought that he could be convinced on his Facebook page AND in private to friends. So then the burden is on everyone else to counter the assertions that he made while sounding very sure of it, which a lot of the time it didn’t happen.

He spewed lies about New World traditions as a matter of course because he figured that his neopaganism was similar to these traditions. More than once he described how “Quimbanda” works, having in reality not a single clue about it. Then he came for Obeah. I pointed out a disagrement on my own Facebook wall once and I had to subsequently block him because he became a pest, both via DMs and outside. I’m not gonna go into what mutual friends wrote to me at the time asking for an unblock, and when I caved, it took only months until he did it again.

I think that you should also consider what motivations Jesse and Al may have had for keeping things friendly with other authors. After all, this whole “speaking for Quimbanda” in the English language business came by and large from this crowd. And that spawned a generation of foreigners who now believe that the cult is something that it hardly is.

Some people believe that his books helped them. I guess we live in different worlds, so I won’t judge. But I will say that having a genuine interest in something means being open to the possibility of being wrong. And he was wrong, A LOT. And definitely rarely if ever recanted anything.

 

[MorganBlack]

All good, Julio! I was hoping you'd speak to this.

I still think the 'neopagan' age is coming to a close. Believe me, it irritates me on a low level when neopagans call the Vodou Lwa 'gods' - they are not, they are elevated dead folks. So my eyes wobble a bit when people try to absorb them into their collective pagan oeuvre just to bolster what is mostly an empty cardboard box used to sell merch.

Speaking how we are possibly facing new, and I hope improved occult public landscape. Back this last summer, my girlfriend overcame my resistance and dragged me to a 'WitchFest' convention. I was pleasantly surprised to see most people dressed in black, with no crunchy-hippie Rainbow pagans in sight Some Llewellyn authors were there but they were being ignored. A Quimbandeiro and Palero (if I recall correctly) was there giving a talk on the chamalongos, and I was pleasantly surprised to find the entire auditorium was packed.

I think people sense they were part of a dream. That some still fling the 20th-century neopagan "Abrahamist" as a slur and insult is the dying cry of a fading dream. The New Witchcraft (Witchcraft 2.0?) - or whatever it is, looks at lot more like brujeria than Gerald Gardner. They are still figuring it out, but it was a nice sea change from what I saw in the 1990s.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:00 PM

consider what motivations Jesse and Al may have had for keeping things friendly with other authors

Yeah, I hear ya. Before starting my own company, I worked in corporate world of video games, film and tech, and recognize those business dynamics well - the need to maintain favorable standing with publishers, who have marketing KPI's to meet. "Witch" and capitol-p "Paganism" are mostly marketing terms. (No offense to those who flesh them out with their own inner creativity. Just don't retcon you persoal systheis backwards into history and pollute the well of the intelectual commons.)

But I was on Yahoo forums back in 2004 - 2014, and the Jake then seemed much more measured. Maybe it;s just how my brain is wired, but I never read his books with a sense he was trying communicate a sole Truth (tm) or smear the NeoPagan message over everything.Not sure what changed him.

I still hold that those those who did read totalizing arguments into his writing, did so by dint of their own idiocy and limitations. His later behavior online make me wonder what happened..Maybe after years of being ignored Jake felt he'd arrived. But as we say in Hollywood, "Never believe your own press."

 

[cormundum]

He insisted on berating me whenever I tried to engage him in good-faith argument on his thesis that the Western spiritual magickal tradition wasn't hostile to — or at least cautious of — demons. He made sure that his way was put forth as the dogmatic approach to Solomonic magick, and it was dead wrong.

I’m in a mood today, so I’ll engage. Apologies for hijacking the thread. I hope that this is useful in some way.

Are you Julio Cesar Ody or only sharing the name?

 

[julio]

Are you Julio Cesar Ody or only sharing the name?

I am.

 

[cormundum]

I am.

Nifty. Hope you're doing well! Still in 'Stralia?

 

[julio]

Nifty. Hope you're doing well! Still in 'Stralia?

Thank you, no, been in Brazil for several years now.

 

[MorganBlack]

Just mulling this moring over coffee.

Recently, an author and editor from Hadean Press - who is currently teaching classes on my favorite grimoire, the Grimorium Verum - noted that a number of his students are seeing their lives thrown into total upheaval. I very much see this as a downstream effect of the neopaganization of the grims. I was even there myself very early on and still have a few scars.

While I will critique the totalizing "sales pitch" often found in the remnants of "big box store' 20th-century Neopaganism - while still supporting an individual's right to personal exploration - I am particularly concerned with the ongoing effort to absorb or even erase Solomonic magic and the grimoires. Although the heyday of that specific movement may be passing, the downstream effects are still very much present in online magical communities.

What bothers me most is probably what I call "Pagan Calvinism." It's this unquestioning devotion and subservient stance I see a lot of, "My buddy Asmodeus said it, I believe it, and that settles it." There is a lack of critical discernment or boundary-setting that characterizes traditional spirit work. Let's unpack the romantic image of the village "shaman" they usually idolize: over 50% of their work is dealing with (pacifying or placating) hostile spirits for the benefit of the community.

I believe this is the exact inflection point where the Neopaganization tendency to prostrate themselves and let the spirits do whatever they want fails. It’s clear that these practitioners have likely never been exposed to New World traditions (such as Vodou, and I assume Quimbanda, though I have no experience there). In the hounfo, you see how a priest and a community call the Lwa, and you also see how the rituals and the Houngan or Mambo actively direct those manifestations. There are protocols, ritual actions, and ritual equipment for directing and also controlling for the benefit of the community human-spirit interaction. They are not just left to run around doing whatever they want.

I will say I like more people using Verum. But on hearing about what these people were experiencing in this recent Verum class, I was like: "Goddammit, you know you can TELL them NOT to." Assuming you have their respect, they will abide by your constraints.

Anyway, I am not in those classes, but I would hope my teacher would tell his me to do this. Open your mouth and TELL them this, and this, NOT that or that. Be clear. Repeat yourself. Be firm and direct. Yell. Their hearing is not so great. Tell them to do you and yours no harm in any way, nor anything about you, to leave your relationships alone, leave your job alone, etc. That they are to assist you in pleasant and healthful way in all things that are about you. (They were never human and have a hard time relating fully to all this squishy human fluff. You are need to tell they the whys and whats as it relates to you. Be your own advocate when at this level. Nobody else will. )

If you are using a pact-based system like the GV write in all down in a contract. Get them to sign it. Meaning a mark or signature will appear in you vision on the physical contact, or there will be some other indication. Abide by you side of the the agreements. I made the mistake very early on in my practice of treating it flippantly and the extreme things I experiences was a firm lesson then.

It may be helpful for some to take a cue from the language of what became one of the most popular English grimoires. To that end I recommend the conjuration from:
the Fourth Chapter of Reginald Scot's The Discoverie of Witchcraft,
The forme of adjuring or citing of the spirits aforesaid to arise and appeare.

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In my experience, this is a great conjuration. But I was already in deep. Lights will sometimes flash when saying it. Some of the materialization effects, like smells of citrus and roses I an my girlfriend can smell, will come the most after saying the classic Catholic prayers and then this one. Why? I have no idea, but just wanted to make a note of it for others who might be curious.

Anway, this conjuration helps to begin re-framing the grims away some from the 20th century neopaganism articulation. For the British Cunning Folk who used these grimoires, the "Old Religion" they spoke of was not this Murrayite-hypothesis "paganism," it was Catholicism. I’m not recruiting, just suggesting, it may be useful to look at the operartive stance assumed, whic was a bit apart, and more exectuve-level, in relation to the spirit world, and how it better reflects older "shamanic" practices.

 

[cormundum]

Who needs New World traditions? The grimoires themselves are explicit that the spirits be exorcised and bound, either through the names of God or through the intercession of the Holy Guardian Angel. It's because Modernist ideas filter through spiritual movements as "Demons and angels are the saaaame," "bea- I mean - demons are our friiiiends" that people fail in the process of working with spirits.

Nobody who actually practices the Verum without JSK's preposterously brain-dead takes on Western spirit magick ("I give them chocolate and roses. Did you know Clauneck is a buff gay man spirit??") will have problems. The problem is these supposed "teachers" utilizing these modern books — all influenced by toxic ideas — as the basis of their practice and curriculum, rather than going straight to the sources WITHOUT integrating whatever they read from talentless, insane, hacks. Find me one person (other than Imperial Arts) who's practicing the Verum by the book without using whatever Kent and his sycophants have written about it, or being influenced directly or indirectly by the so-called TRVE GRIMOIRE. Except for real old-timers, almost all supposed Solomonic practitioners (except the hard monotheistic/religious types) are incorporating Kent's ideas into their practice.

 

[MorganBlack]

Well, I am New World and live in the New World. Latino-Anglo Texican here.

New World traditions are mostly Folk Catholic, The names of God, and the saints are usually very much kept in place. There is no fundamental conflict there.

Verum as it stands works great. My Verum practice is more Folk Catholic, but I tried JSK's framework and it does work - because unlike Daemonolatry Neopaganism, JSK keeps the upper end of the Infernal Hierarchy in place. But from my experience with his system, they also run around a lot without proper constraints, which can be found in New World traditions, as I suggested above. I also suggest the trauma people are are having in that Verum class is not necessary.

Also Imperial Arts does not do Verum, he is a Lesser Key guy. All good tho'.

Post automatically merged: Today at 6:32 PM

Are we going back to 2004. Is it Joseph C. Lisiewski time again? I think some is good, maybe?

Although I usually do not stress this view, I am probably more of a grimoire fundamentalist than anybody. From my own work, and paying attention to what other magicians say, I’ve come to the view that the specific grimoire you use, that you embrace, will change the nature of the manifestations you will have.

For me, The Lesser Key is a bit more trippy while the GV (Grimorium Verum) is deeply chthonic. The manifestations are more solid, and much darker. Magicians I rather like, such as Gordon White, have stated publicly they HATE the GV, but he has never said why. He like many Big Name Magicians (BNM's) also said he has never gotten a visible manifestation. Which makes me wonder why they hate it so much, and yet still keep tinkering with the structure . Well, GV is super creepy. But I like that way.

I modulate do it with a Catholic superstructure , around the ritual, which see as tie mostly for me, and my connection with the Divine. They [the spirits] also appear to like the feelings the Virgin brings, but that is my personal gnosis and practice. I don't bring the Catholicism into the GV protocols more than it is already (it is a French and Italian grimoire, after all). But it helps to understand the Catholic worldview here. If you are Catholic, you simply live in a Catholic universe. Everything here IS literally Catholic. I know it’s hard to get in these modern secular times. So of course I would use Catholic rituals in front of the GV.

 

[Sabbatius]

I avoid the UPG of Grimoire translators and authors and just observe the ritual methods and technique itself.