My experience with Scott Stenwick's operant field

[luotenrati]

Hey I don't know if this is supposed to go here or to the journal section. Since it is meant to stimulate discussion I thought it'd be better to post it here.

I have found out about Scott Stenwick's operant field (combining LBRP and LBRH) from his website. It interested me, because it seemed reasonable and a good way to enhance rituals. He has a very strong opinion against using the LBRH on a regular basis, as it might cleanse the area too quickly before it can take effect. He also recommends doing the following sequence daily for the general practitioner: QC LBRP LIRH MP QC. He does not close with the banishing pentagrams stating that the QC is more than enough. Now this is already a very different approach than the orthodox golden dawn method but I was curious and wanted to try it out.

I started doing a little before the beginning of a 1.5 week operation and in total I performed it for about 2 weeks. In the beginning, I could certainly feel the energy of the ritual being raised as I did the LIRH and it was somewhat refreshing. It felt strange not to banish afterwards though. As the days passed, I felt increasingly fatigued. It was as if I was dragging a stone made of meat around with me. This fatigue kept increasing as I kept performing the ritual. Around one week in I could barely sleep as well, perhaps 3-4 hours a night, 5 max. Everyday was more draining than the last. At this point I suspected that this might be due to the ritual but I wanted to keep going for the 2 weeks at least. Despite the physical fatigue, the mental fatigue was somewhat negligible, which I attribute to performing the MP daily. It seems to have enabled me to at least function normally. It is also interesting to note that I had lots of moments of gnosis during this time, very deep spiritual insights that would otherwise require long concentration to reach.

There were also several weird situations like sounds in my room and scratching on my door, stuff like that. I suspect that I might have attracted something with this, and perhaps it was even leeching off of me for a while.

By the end of the 2 weeks I was feeling like absolute shit. I was barely able to do anything at all. I hadn't slept for almost a week and I had no appetite and no desires either. As for external factors, I noticed a lot of limitations. Wanting to go some job offers I saw, there suddenly were gone. It's as if opportunities vanished and I felt completely stuck and hopeless.

Having figured that the LIRH is essentially a Saturn invocation (and it is retrograde), I decided that fuck it I'll just banish the shit already. If it doesn't work, then it means that it wasn't the LIRH at all that was causing my fatigue. So I did the LBRH and immediately after drawing the hexagrams felt a very cool sensation in my forehead, like having a cold compress pushed against a wound. It felt extremely refreshing, like something leaving me. My body suddenly felt free and I could move normally again. The following days I was feeling amazing, I mean the best I've felt in months. Old blockages were gone, I could write freely, and my body felt like it was made of air. The night I did the LBRH was the first time I slept normally in several weeks.

Yeah so TL;DR: Tried doing Scott Stenwick's operant field routine, got BTFO'd, did LBRH and fixed it. YMMV.

My theory is that when doing this kind of LIRH you are essentially invoking Saturn so perhaps you don't want to do that during retrograde specifically but then again Saturn is in retrograde for a long time of the year. Perhaps the LIRH can be adapted to invoke another planet instead? I'm not sure.

Anyone else worked with his operant field before? What are your experiences? Just invoking without banishing is kind of like having condomless sex and then not even showering afterwards. Maybe for him it works great, for me it doesn't unfortunately but at least I know now.

 

[kazuriel01]

Hey I don't know if this is supposed to go here or to the journal section. Since it is meant to stimulate discussion I thought it'd be better to post it here.

I have found out about Scott Stenwick's operant field (combining LBRP and LBRH) from his website. It interested me, because it seemed reasonable and a good way to enhance rituals. He has a very strong opinion against using the LBRH on a regular basis, as it might cleanse the area too quickly before it can take effect. He also recommends doing the following sequence daily for the general practitioner: QC LBRP LIRH MP QC. He does not close with the banishing pentagrams stating that the QC is more than enough. Now this is already a very different approach than the orthodox golden dawn method but I was curious and wanted to try it out.

I started doing a little before the beginning of a 1.5 week operation and in total I performed it for about 2 weeks. In the beginning, I could certainly feel the energy of the ritual being raised as I did the LIRH and it was somewhat refreshing. It felt strange not to banish afterwards though. As the days passed, I felt increasingly fatigued. It was as if I was dragging a stone made of meat around with me. This fatigue kept increasing as I kept performing the ritual. Around one week in I could barely sleep as well, perhaps 3-4 hours a night, 5 max. Everyday was more draining than the last. At this point I suspected that this might be due to the ritual but I wanted to keep going for the 2 weeks at least. Despite the physical fatigue, the mental fatigue was somewhat negligible, which I attribute to performing the MP daily. It seems to have enabled me to at least function normally. It is also interesting to note that I had lots of moments of gnosis during this time, very deep spiritual insights that would otherwise require long concentration to reach.

There were also several weird situations like sounds in my room and scratching on my door, stuff like that. I suspect that I might have attracted something with this, and perhaps it was even leeching off of me for a while.

By the end of the 2 weeks I was feeling like absolute shit. I was barely able to do anything at all. I hadn't slept for almost a week and I had no appetite and no desires either. As for external factors, I noticed a lot of limitations. Wanting to go some job offers I saw, there suddenly were gone. It's as if opportunities vanished and I felt completely stuck and hopeless.

Having figured that the LIRH is essentially a Saturn invocation (and it is retrograde), I decided that fuck it I'll just banish the shit already. If it doesn't work, then it means that it wasn't the LIRH at all that was causing my fatigue. So I did the LBRH and immediately after drawing the hexagrams felt a very cool sensation in my forehead, like having a cold compress pushed against a wound. It felt extremely refreshing, like something leaving me. My body suddenly felt free and I could move normally again. The following days I was feeling amazing, I mean the best I've felt in months. Old blockages were gone, I could write freely, and my body felt like it was made of air. The night I did the LBRH was the first time I slept normally in several weeks.

Yeah so TL;DR: Tried doing Scott Stenwick's operant field routine, got BTFO'd, did LBRH and fixed it. YMMV.

My theory is that when doing this kind of LIRH you are essentially invoking Saturn so perhaps you don't want to do that during retrograde specifically but then again Saturn is in retrograde for a long time of the year. Perhaps the LIRH can be adapted to invoke another planet instead? I'm not sure.

Anyone else worked with his operant field before? What are your experiences? Just invoking without banishing is kind of like having condomless sex and then not even showering afterwards. Maybe for him it works great, for me it doesn't unfortunately but at least I know now.

First of all, it is evident that you aren't very knowledgeable about this; the Lesser Hexagram Ritual has nothing to do with Saturn or the planets. The Lesser Hexagram is elemental—a fact mentioned on the blog itself—and is performed to open a gateway to macrocosmic forces; it works, too. The Greater Hexagram Ritual is used for the planets. Also, the Middle Pillar Ritual causes dizziness and insomnia—many practitioners, myself included, have reported this. If these symptoms persist for a long time, one can switch to other energy-raising techniques, such as working with the chakras.

 

[luotenrati]

First of all, it is evident that you aren't very knowledgeable about this;

I know it is an elemental ritual. I am referring to the debate on Nick Farrell's vs. Scott Stenwick's approach here (look at the first reply by pixel_fortune): Hexagram Rituals .. Questions for those more proficient with them.

See also Nick Farrell's post on this topic, where he says:

"In the lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram, the use of banishing versions of the geomantic symbols makes for an impressive symbolic system. Rather than providing a magical circle, which the invoking ritual would still do, it serves to break down existing restrictions and structures. Rather than allowing the constrictive, separate prisons of the double carcer symbols, it banishes any limitations which might be there."

"When you perform a magical act, you are creating a change in the status quo and challenging the natural Saturnian force. Some of these limitations will exist in the magician, others from society and on a broader scale the natural flow of the universe. By rendering the space antagonistic to Saturnian inertia you are giving your magic a chance."

His opinion is that performing the lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram is able to reduce Saturnian backlash, caused by doing workings that are antagonistic to Saturn:

"Performing a daily lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram would help prevent this backlash before it becomes too crippling, you will always face this particular issue (it is part of the natural way the universe works), but at least it will not harm you too much."

Source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

There is a difference between the Golden Dawn and the Thelemic versions of those combinations, as Stenwick himself states:

"The Golden Dawn LRP/LRH and the Thelemic LRP/LRH are different, and they might work differently depending on which system you are working with. What I publish here is how I use the Thelemic versions and the results and insights that I have obtained working with it."

Source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Generally speaking, at this point when I write about using the Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram, it's this version that I'm talking about."

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If you check out the ritual, you will see that it is VERY different from the usual GD stuff, which is not very clear when he mentions the LBRP/LIRH conjunction.

So perhaps that is precisely where I might have fucked up, because I used the Golden Dawn version, where I should have used the Thelemic version which presumably flips the blue and red triangle. Perhaps this is where those who report no success with the operant field equally mess up, because it is not very obvious that this form is being used.

Considering that I was using GD forms for this, Farrell's explanation would make more sense, given his interpretation of the origin of the LBRH, based on the geomantic symbols for carcer in the key of Solomon, and its further modification by Mathers.

There are many different interpretations of this ritual. I believe Donald Michael Kraig also had his opinion on this. Farrell believes it is connected to Saturn due to deriving from the circle in the Key of Solomon, whereas Stenwick believes it to open up macrocosmic forces. They are both very knowledgeable but in effect they arrive at diametrically opposite conclusions. What I infer from this is that one wants to use the operant field effectively, one should use the Thelemic forms and if one wants to use basic GD forms, then it would be better to banish.

I have not experienced dizziness or insomnia from the Middle Pillar itself, so I find no reasonable evidence to attribute it to this. My experience was such that when I performed the GD version of the LBRH, I felt a lot better. The effect during the LIRH practice with the GD form was undeniably Saturnian for me.

 

[kazuriel01]

I know it is an elemental ritual. I am referring to the debate on Nick Farrell's vs. Scott Stenwick's approach here (look at the first reply by pixel_fortune): Hexagram Rituals .. Questions for those more proficient with them.

See also Nick Farrell's post on this topic, where he says:

"In the lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram, the use of banishing versions of the geomantic symbols makes for an impressive symbolic system. Rather than providing a magical circle, which the invoking ritual would still do, it serves to break down existing restrictions and structures. Rather than allowing the constrictive, separate prisons of the double carcer symbols, it banishes any limitations which might be there."

"When you perform a magical act, you are creating a change in the status quo and challenging the natural Saturnian force. Some of these limitations will exist in the magician, others from society and on a broader scale the natural flow of the universe. By rendering the space antagonistic to Saturnian inertia you are giving your magic a chance."

His opinion is that performing the lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram is able to reduce Saturnian backlash, caused by doing workings that are antagonistic to Saturn:

"Performing a daily lesser banishing ritual of the hexagram would help prevent this backlash before it becomes too crippling, you will always face this particular issue (it is part of the natural way the universe works), but at least it will not harm you too much."

Source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

There is a difference between the Golden Dawn and the Thelemic versions of those combinations, as Stenwick himself states:

"The Golden Dawn LRP/LRH and the Thelemic LRP/LRH are different, and they might work differently depending on which system you are working with. What I publish here is how I use the Thelemic versions and the results and insights that I have obtained working with it."

Source:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Generally speaking, at this point when I write about using the Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram, it's this version that I'm talking about."

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If you check out the ritual, you will see that it is VERY different from the usual GD stuff, which is not very clear when he mentions the LBRP/LIRH conjunction.

So perhaps that is precisely where I might have fucked up, because I used the Golden Dawn version, where I should have used the Thelemic version which presumably flips the blue and red triangle. Perhaps this is where those who report no success with the operant field equally mess up, because it is not very obvious that this form is being used.

Considering that I was using GD forms for this, Farrell's explanation would make more sense, given his interpretation of the origin of the LBRH, based on the geomantic symbols for carcer in the key of Solomon, and its further modification by Mathers.

There are many different interpretations of this ritual. I believe Donald Michael Kraig also had his opinion on this. Farrell believes it is connected to Saturn due to deriving from the circle in the Key of Solomon, whereas Stenwick believes it to open up macrocosmic forces. They are both very knowledgeable but in effect they arrive at diametrically opposite conclusions. What I infer from this is that one wants to use the operant field effectively, one should use the Thelemic forms and if one wants to use basic GD forms, then it would be better to banish.

I have not experienced dizziness or insomnia from the Middle Pillar itself, so I find no reasonable evidence to attribute it to this. My experience was such that when I performed the GD version of the LBRH, I felt a lot better. The effect during the LIRH practice with the GD form was undeniably Saturnian for me.

Since this can vary from person to person, the best approach is to try it out and see what works best for you. The reason one feels good after performing the LBRH is that it clears away all influences; as Stenwick notes, it also shuts down any ongoing magical workings—essentially, the ritual resets everything. In my opinion, it is certainly worth using at times, and I believe it should be performed before the Greater Hexagram Ritual to ensure there are no other planetary influences present in the environment.

 

[luotenrati]

Since this can vary from person to person, the best approach is to try it out and see what works best for you. The reason one feels good after performing the LBRH is that it clears away all influences; as Stenwick notes, it also shuts down any ongoing magical workings—essentially, the ritual resets everything. In my opinion, it is certainly worth using at times, and I believe it should be performed before the Greater Hexagram Ritual to ensure there are no other planetary influences present in the environment.

I think a good compromise would be just not explicitly closing with the LBRH right after a practical ritual. Otherwise though you'd want to clean up at least once a week or so. After all, it would also not be desirable to fall into paranoia because you start thinking that it might erase the effects of a ritual you did weeks ago. Scott himself states that if you absolutely must banish right after, then it would be best to just create a talisman and wrap it in cloth before you do so.

 

[kazuriel01]

I think a good compromise would be just not explicitly closing with the LBRH right after a practical ritual. Otherwise though you'd want to clean up at least once a week or so. After all, it would also not be desirable to fall into paranoia because you start thinking that it might erase the effects of a ritual you did weeks ago. Scott himself states that if you absolutely must banish right after, then it would be best to just create a talisman and wrap it in cloth before you do so.

If we want the spell to function as a mechanism independent of us, it can indeed be performed at the end of the ritual; in fact, using a talisman or a spirit is far more appropriate for workings intended to influence external events or people. Relying on the magician's own energy for such spells causes unnecessary depletion, so using a talisman or a spirit is the most logical approach when the goal is to affect the outside world.

 

[Keldan]

I have spirits evoked without doing any banishing afterwards, and I have never had a single problem. When you use another person’s ritual, you must understand what that ritual is actually doing, not simply accept “this is what it does” because others say so.

I have never had a ritual that left me fatigued or produced negative effects. But I do my own thing and don’t use any traditions. If you find that a ritual from someone else consistently makes you feel unwell, that is a clear sign you shouldn’t want to continue with it.

 

[Frater R.P.G.]

First of all, it is evident that you aren't very knowledgeable about this; the Lesser Hexagram Ritual has nothing to do with Saturn or the planets.

No, he is right. At least in its basic GD form it, the hexagrams in LRH are traced from the point corresponding to Saturn.

 

[r4zorenigma]

I hate that most occultists I see online are all stuck on an elementary level of thinking..

If you only knew how many rituals the HOGD actually contained.... while everyone jus continues to squack about ther most elementary level LBRP and MRP and LHRP..

Its just.. sad and unfortunte..

In my practice, I performed hermetic magick for longer than I can remember but also rosicrucian rituals, advanced planetary magick, alot of eastern magick especially Vedic magick, Egyptian and there's so many rituals I forgot that when I see people talk about the same 3 rituals... It is just highly disappointing..

Instead of showing my disappointment, I'll leave you wiht a gem.

1) Don't perform LBRP, only do the original ritual LRP. you dont need to perform a banishing version at all.
2) Before you even do a LRP, Do a Rose Cross ritual.. This should be your first after the QC or MPR and the do the LRP, before doing the LHR
3) I don't usually help people.. magick is very powerful when you know the true keys behind it.. But if you start listening to the first two steps, and come back to me and tell me how things are going, I Might tell you a bit more..

I advocate for people to live practical lives these days instead of get into the occult.. so it is what it is.. but, if i see talent somewhere, I might just help em out.. I rarely see any talent these days.. most occultists are silly little goobers who can't seem to get past the very basics.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

We need to Laugh

Me: "I have surpassed my ego! Therefore, i am now better than everyone else!" WE have all done this before.

wizardforums.com

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:35 PM

wrt the OP, I always find this kind of thing amazing. I'm not big on other people's rituals, but this kind of story does tempt me...

 

[Mannimarco]

Hey I don't know if this is supposed to go here or to the journal section. Since it is meant to stimulate discussion I thought it'd be better to post it here.

I have found out about Scott Stenwick's operant field (combining LBRP and LBRH) from his website. It interested me, because it seemed reasonable and a good way to enhance rituals. He has a very strong opinion against using the LBRH on a regular basis, as it might cleanse the area too quickly before it can take effect. He also recommends doing the following sequence daily for the general practitioner: QC LBRP LIRH MP QC. He does not close with the banishing pentagrams stating that the QC is more than enough. Now this is already a very different approach than the orthodox golden dawn method but I was curious and wanted to try it out.

I started doing a little before the beginning of a 1.5 week operation and in total I performed it for about 2 weeks. In the beginning, I could certainly feel the energy of the ritual being raised as I did the LIRH and it was somewhat refreshing. It felt strange not to banish afterwards though. As the days passed, I felt increasingly fatigued. It was as if I was dragging a stone made of meat around with me. This fatigue kept increasing as I kept performing the ritual. Around one week in I could barely sleep as well, perhaps 3-4 hours a night, 5 max. Everyday was more draining than the last. At this point I suspected that this might be due to the ritual but I wanted to keep going for the 2 weeks at least. Despite the physical fatigue, the mental fatigue was somewhat negligible, which I attribute to performing the MP daily. It seems to have enabled me to at least function normally. It is also interesting to note that I had lots of moments of gnosis during this time, very deep spiritual insights that would otherwise require long concentration to reach.

There were also several weird situations like sounds in my room and scratching on my door, stuff like that. I suspect that I might have attracted something with this, and perhaps it was even leeching off of me for a while.

By the end of the 2 weeks I was feeling like absolute shit. I was barely able to do anything at all. I hadn't slept for almost a week and I had no appetite and no desires either. As for external factors, I noticed a lot of limitations. Wanting to go some job offers I saw, there suddenly were gone. It's as if opportunities vanished and I felt completely stuck and hopeless.

Having figured that the LIRH is essentially a Saturn invocation (and it is retrograde), I decided that fuck it I'll just banish the shit already. If it doesn't work, then it means that it wasn't the LIRH at all that was causing my fatigue. So I did the LBRH and immediately after drawing the hexagrams felt a very cool sensation in my forehead, like having a cold compress pushed against a wound. It felt extremely refreshing, like something leaving me. My body suddenly felt free and I could move normally again. The following days I was feeling amazing, I mean the best I've felt in months. Old blockages were gone, I could write freely, and my body felt like it was made of air. The night I did the LBRH was the first time I slept normally in several weeks.

Yeah so TL;DR: Tried doing Scott Stenwick's operant field routine, got BTFO'd, did LBRH and fixed it. YMMV.

My theory is that when doing this kind of LIRH you are essentially invoking Saturn so perhaps you don't want to do that during retrograde specifically but then again Saturn is in retrograde for a long time of the year. Perhaps the LIRH can be adapted to invoke another planet instead? I'm not sure.

Anyone else worked with his operant field before? What are your experiences? Just invoking without banishing is kind of like having condomless sex and then not even showering afterwards. Maybe for him it works great, for me it doesn't unfortunately but at least I know now.

So, you tried Stenwicks operant field, but didn't do it the way he does it. And it didn't work the way he says it works. What was your reason for doing it differently?

 

[luotenrati]

So, you tried Stenwicks operant field, but didn't do it the way he does it. And it didn't work the way he says it works. What was your reason for doing it differently?

What do you mean didn't do it the way he does it? If you mean that I didn't do the Thelemic version, then I didn't know that I'm supposed to do the Thelemic version because it wasn't at all clear that I was supposed to do them.

Given the information on his blog it is still not exactly clear. Am I supposed to do the normal LIRH but with blue triangles pointing upwards? The star ruby and star sapphire? Then why call it LBRP/LIRH instead of SR/SS?

Given that Stenwick's original idea is based on Liber o vel manus et sagittae, it would make sense to assume that he is talking simply about an inversion of the red and blue colours.

The way he does it is LBRP and then LIRH. He recommends a daily practice of LBRP, LIRH and MP.

So instead of just saying that I didn't do it properly, perhaps tell me how it should have been done. Am I wrong to have performed the LIRH after the LBRP? Or is it because I didn't use the totally Thelemic variants of SR and SS that you say that I didn't do it the way he does it?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:55 PM

I hate that most occultists I see online are all stuck on an elementary level of thinking..

If you only knew how many rituals the HOGD actually contained.... while everyone jus continues to squack about ther most elementary level LBRP and MRP and LHRP..

Its just.. sad and unfortunte..

In my practice, I performed hermetic magick for longer than I can remember but also rosicrucian rituals, advanced planetary magick, alot of eastern magick especially Vedic magick, Egyptian and there's so many rituals I forgot that when I see people talk about the same 3 rituals... It is just highly disappointing..

Instead of showing my disappointment, I'll leave you wiht a gem.

1) Don't perform LBRP, only do the original ritual LRP. you dont need to perform a banishing version at all.
2) Before you even do a LRP, Do a Rose Cross ritual.. This should be your first after the QC or MPR and the do the LRP, before doing the LHR
3) I don't usually help people.. magick is very powerful when you know the true keys behind it.. But if you start listening to the first two steps, and come back to me and tell me how things are going, I Might tell you a bit more..

I advocate for people to live practical lives these days instead of get into the occult.. so it is what it is.. but, if i see talent somewhere, I might just help em out.. I rarely see any talent these days.. most occultists are silly little goobers who can't seem to get past the very basics.

I'd really like to take your advice but your patronizing tone makes it really difficult to appreciate your words. I can't stand when people pretend to be an authority and you clearly only replied so you can boost your ego. I don't intend to feed your delusions of grandeur, so please take your advice elsewhere.