Opinions on Jung & The Red Book

[IllusiveOwl]

In Psychology, I am a huge Jungian nerd, his work with Alchemy, dreams, archetypes, the universal unconscious, all of it is just so tasty. My college advisor lent me his massive copy of The Red Book and I read it over the last winter. It mostly covered his adventures in the unconscious, though I suspect it may have been some kind of mystical journey.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on it, since the book includes the his sermons of the dead and the Abraxis cosmogram as well.

If you haven't read it, I've attached photos of some of the artwork within made by Jung to illustrate his work. I am hoping perhaps some of you better versed in esoteric matters could see things I couldn't in these pictures (maybe give an idea of what the strange glyphs mean).

Also just feel free to geek out about Jung here if you'd like, maybe share your favorite book by him or a psychological concept he coined.

 

[Xenophon]

Great diagram. Gnostic, of course, but whether it's something traditionally inspired or Jung's own work from scratch I can't say. At the top a couple of the names/terms are Greek. The rest Latin. You'd need to start googling the names to start unravelling what's afoot here. Interestingly, at the very bottom we find, "Abraxis: Lord of the World" (abraxis dominus mundi). Around the rim in a couple of places is "pleroma"---fulness---often used in Gnosticism to denote the completeness of divine excellencies. Maybe get some commentaries and start digging. This looks fascinating...

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Great diagram. Gnostic, of course, but whether it's something traditionally inspired or Jung's own work from scratch I can't say. At the top a couple of the names/terms are Greek. The rest Latin. You'd need to start googling the names to start unravelling what's afoot here. Interestingly, at the very bottom we find, "Abraxis: Lord of the World" (abraxis dominus mundi). Around the rim in a couple of places is "pleroma"---fulness---often used in Gnosticism to denote the completeness of divine excellencies. Maybe get some commentaries and start digging. This looks fascinating...

I can confirm all of these photos were made by Jung and taken from his "Magnum Opus" Red Book.

The Abraxas one is the easiest of the pictures to understand because it is based off the cosmic system outlined in the seven sermons, he saw Abraxas as man that we grow from yo evolve into celestial bodies, or something along those lines.

I'll reread them and do some more digging for sure

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Obviously, "Synchroncity" was one of the starting points for my research (after Koestler's "The Roots of Coincidence") and the thing that fascinated me most was the fact he teamed up with Wolfgang Pauli, famous for being very sceptical (It was Pauli who would scathingly dismiss students work with "It's not even wrong").
I should really read it again.

 

[Xenophon]

I can confirm all of these photos were made by Jung and taken from his "Magnum Opus" Red Book.

The Abraxas one is the easiest of the pictures to understand because it is based off the cosmic system outlined in the seven sermons, he saw Abraxas as man that we grow from yo evolve into celestial bodies, or something along those lines.

I'll reread them and do some more digging for sure

I meant I wondered if Jung had drawn diagrams he had seen in other works or whether this was the topography of the realms he traversed himself. Apparently it's meant to be the latter.

 

[Wildchildx11]

I vary, the Jungian perspective is useful at times, but at othertimes it takes away from the Magic of the whole thing, especially with entity work.

I believe that as the spiritual plane is the higher form of the psychological plane, then I vary and tend to go back and forth.

There are times when I need to believe that the spirits I work with are real entities, there are times when I need to view them as aspects of my own psychological state and figure out what they mean.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I vary, the Jungian perspective is useful at times, but at othertimes it takes away from the Magic of the whole thing, especially with entity work.

I believe that as the spiritual plane is the higher form of the psychological plane, then I vary and tend to go back and forth.

There are times when I need to believe that the spirits I work with are real entities, there are times when I need to view them as aspects of my own psychological state and figure out what they mean.

The majority of the Red Book is Carl Jung going through the unconscious and encountering fully sentient entities in his unconscious, then extracting psychological meaning from the encounters therein, often with profound results, especially when he came across a devil, a monk, and the blind Solome.

 

[Wildchildx11]

I actually have a question tying into Jung's theories.

When trying to explore my shadow self, doing shadow work, then my shadow I have to integrate is Hitler, which I clearly don't want to integrate which probably causes a lot of my delusions of being a Nazi in a past life.

In the case where your shadow self is a genocidal dictator, how do you successfully integrate this aspect of you without going full on /pol/, would Jung ever agree that there are aspects of the self which should be repressed?

I suppose I could integrate aspects such as his charisma and his confidence, but I don't know how I feel about integrating my shadow self.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I actually have a question tying into Jung's theories.

When trying to explore my shadow self, doing shadow work, then my shadow I have to integrate is Hitler, which I clearly don't want to integrate which probably causes a lot of my delusions of being a Nazi in a past life.

In the case where your shadow self is a genocidal dictator, how do you successfully integrate this aspect of you without going full on /pol/, would Jung ever agree that there are aspects of the self which should be repressed?

I suppose I could integrate aspects such as his charisma and his confidence, but I don't know how I feel about integrating my shadow self.

Jung actually wrote a wonderfully small little book called "The Undiscovered Self" which talks about how every individual human has within themselves the ability to be the worst dictator and the most benevolent humanitarian. Having both extremes within us is what gives us our freedom.

Past life stuff isn't really worth getting in to if it's distracting, if you ask me. In the non-duality-goggles all of us were Hitler, and those he killed.

 

[Wildchildx11]

Jung actually wrote a wonderfully small little book called "The Undiscovered Self" which talks about how every individual human has within themselves the ability to be the worst dictator and the most benevolent humanitarian. Having both extremes within us is what gives us our freedom.

Past life stuff isn't really worth getting in to if it's distracting, if you ask me. In the non-duality-goggles all of us were Hitler, and those he killed.

Is getting in touch with the shadow and integrating it worthwhile, if doing so may potentially take away your freedom?

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Is getting in touch with the shadow and integrating it worthwhile, if doing so may potentially take away your freedom?

Integrating the shadow is the only way to attain freedom from the Jungian perspective, however he never intended it to include psychic contents from past lives. It represents what is already repressed, the animal urges, the parts of yourself that already exist but work against you because you are not conscious of them and therefore cannot control them.

 

[Wildchildx11]

Integrating the shadow is the only way to attain freedom from the Jungian perspective, however he never intended it to include psychic contents from past lives. It represents what is already repressed, the animal urges, the parts of yourself that already exist but work against you because you are not conscious of them and therefore cannot control them.

I do tend to self-sabotage myself. It's not past lives, it's delusions reflected from repressing the shadow.

 

[HoldAll]

I actually have a question tying into Jung's theories.

When trying to explore my shadow self, doing shadow work, then my shadow I have to integrate is Hitler, which I clearly don't want to integrate which probably causes a lot of my delusions of being a Nazi in a past life.

In the case where your shadow self is a genocidal dictator, how do you successfully integrate this aspect of you without going full on /pol/, would Jung ever agree that there are aspects of the self which should be repressed?

I suppose I could integrate aspects such as his charisma and his confidence, but I don't know how I feel about integrating my shadow self.

According to Wikipedia, the Nazi Party had 8.5 million members at its heyday in 1945, doubtless many of them opportunists who thought it was a good career move. Do you really think such a prominent historical figure like Hitler plays a major role your past life or shadow work? This sounds suspiciously like people claiming to have been Cleopatra, Napoleon or an Atlantean priestess. On the other hand, Hitler could be nothing more than an archetype, a symbol for murderous urges (not as the intense petty bourgeois with delusions of grandeur or the shrewd ruthless politician agitating vor votes within the democratic framework of the Weimar Republic); you could also call him 'Attila the Hun' or any serial killer that set the world aghast. The Shadow encapsulates all things we don't like about us, so it's unlikely to conform to your political convictions.

 

[Wildchildx11]

According to Wikipedia, the Nazi Party had 8.5 million members at its heyday in 1945, doubtless many of them opportunists who thought it was a good career move. Do you really think such a prominent historical figure like Hitler plays a major role your past life or shadow work? This sounds suspiciously like people claiming to have been Cleopatra, Napoleon or an Atlantean priestess. On the other hand, Hitler could be nothing more than an archetype, a symbol for murderous urges (not as the intense petty bourgeois with delusions of grandeur or the shrewd ruthless politician agitating vor votes within the democratic framework of the Weimar Republic); you could also call him 'Attila the Hun' or any serial killer that set the world aghast. The Shadow encapsulates all things we don't like about us, so it's unlikely to conform to your political convictions.

It is an Archetype, It's an aspect I repress about myself.
I'm a liberal progressive, and strongly believe in civil liberties. It's probably the furthest thing from my political convictions. I would have been killed in the camps for being either extremely autistic, or a tranny.

 

[Xenophon]

I actually have a question tying into Jung's theories.

When trying to explore my shadow self, doing shadow work, then my shadow I have to integrate is Hitler, which I clearly don't want to integrate which probably causes a lot of my delusions of being a Nazi in a past life.

In the case where your shadow self is a genocidal dictator, how do you successfully integrate this aspect of you without going full on /pol/, would Jung ever agree that there are aspects of the self which should be repressed?

I suppose I could integrate aspects such as his charisma and his confidence, but I don't know how I feel about integrating my shadow self.

I don't know that I have practical advice on this score. But in the 30's, Jung wrote a fascinating essay called "Wotan" about the psychological significance of the rise of the NSDAP. The essay is available on the net at a number of sites.

 

[Wildchildx11]

I don't know that I have practical advice on this score. But in the 30's, Jung wrote a fascinating essay called "Wotan" about the psychological significance of the rise of the NSDAP. The essay is available on the net at a number of sites.

I plan to read it, probably next on my reading list. I'm trying to get some backing in Norse Paganism before I do.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Man and his Symbols was an interesting read, however as interesting as William James's Varieties of Religious Experience.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

It is an Archetype, It's an aspect I repress about myself.
I'm a liberal progressive, and strongly believe in civil liberties. It's probably the furthest thing from my political convictions. I would have been killed in the camps for being either extremely autistic, or a tranny.

The Shadow likely doesn't have any political beliefs, since it's tied to more primal and selfish desires: the desires to dominate, possess, kill, eat. The Nazi movement may just be the closest thing your conscious mind has to dress the shadow up as because it's the most comprehensible way to do so, with Hitler being the figurehead/archetype.

Doing shadow work will likely help define the repressed version of yourself and help overall with self-awareness. Plus clinging to things outside of ourselves to define us, like political parties, sexualities, disabilities, even religions, can be detrimental and dangerous when working with something as liquid and living as magic; Lao Tzu said the firm and hard break, but the soft and loose bend.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Interesting take on the shadow self, but primal drives for the modern (wo)man are a bit difficult to fulfill, unless one hunts in their spare time.
Still, you would have to cage in and don't nate your game and club it to death to fulfill primal drives.
Want sex with that (wo)man? Rape is out of the question.
Look at societal views upon those who live out their primal urges ... Even vigilantes come out of the wood paneling to get even with the "sickos".

 

[IllusiveOwl]

Interesting take on the shadow self, but primal drives for the modern (wo)man are a bit difficult to fulfill, unless one hunts in their spare time.
Still, you would have to cage in and don't nate your game and club it to death to fulfill primal drives.
Want sex with that (wo)man? Rape is out of the question.
Look at societal views upon those who live out their primal urges ... Even vigilantes come out of the wood paneling to get even with the "sickos".

I certainly agree! And unless the shadow is integrated into consciousness - according to Jung - the shadow will operate outside of our control in the unconscious. Typically those with psychological disorders and those who engage in barbaric crime are those who could not face and integrate their shadow, so they became it instead.

To explain the integration of both extremes, Jung explained it like walking down a chessboard road, where black spots are unbearably hot and the white spots are terribly cold; I see the imagery as promoting moderation and restraint in both poles. To use the caduceus as a metaphor, the shadow would fall under the black serpent, boundless love and charity in the white, and the fully free and individualized Willworker in the middle, free from either's influence but with both completely at one's disposal. Jung liked to symbolize the middle willworker as having the head of a lion