Pacts with unconventional spirits

[FireBorn]

Y'all make magick really interesting with your rules.

Here is the quiet part out loud: The rules that you say exist, only exist because you canonized them with your belief. Read that again.

 

[MorganBlack]

Y'all make magick really interesting with your rules.

Agreed. I have never gotten the impression pacts are even required for most entities.

The G.V. is chthonic and has House rules from the Hellenically-inspired Catholics who made it (and long use). In ancient Greek magic all this binding, coercing, and contractual exchange were almost exclusively the domain of underworld entities, spirits of the dead , and lower daimones. The classical Greek lead curse tablets - which were buried in graves, wells, or underground sanctuaries - were very much structured as a legal contract (pacts) between the living magician and the chthonic powers of Hekate, Hermes Chthonios, Persephone, and/or the unquiet dead. Then they had the chthonic oaths, Horkoi. Even the Olympian gods were bound by oaths sworn upon the River Styx as a chthonic pact. It's how we roll.

I'm not saying that this is objectively true outside of local chthonic / or GV House Rules / realities. If you and the spirits you interact with don't require it, all good. AbammonTheGreat is also right you might as well take advantage of the hierarchy that is there to enforce good manners, behavior, and contacts.

In general I tend agree , it's not 00% required 100% of the time, and is can be reserved for formal diplomatic protocols when just meeting a new spirit contact. it goes a long way to establish trust with them that you are not just some flake or tourist. That said, according to the folk sorcerers of the GV tradition, you are always making a pact if you interact with a spirit. Be sure to negotiate for the best deal.

 

[PinealisGlandia]

Djinn and fae and elemental and nature spirit are four ways of saying the same thing in different dialects. I have made some form of pact with an entity I've called out to under one of these names, so with that said, here are my thoughts on the subject of spirits.

In majiq, I find there are basically two categories of entity, and they're in all meaningful ways impossible to separate. There are internally generated phenomena that come across as entities in the mind, and there's stuff that's genuinely external, but nearly imperceptible. Like, people who have done a lot of work with summoning will attest that there's things that happen like the room suddenly feeling warmer or hotter, and this happens to groups of people too. But that's easy to brush off as imperfect air currents from the heating/cooling system of the building. After dozens of experiences, you stop thinking you're being fooled by a draft, but it certainly doesn't make for persuasive evidence to a dabbler or materialist.

I think what is really happening is it's like two soap bubbles merging in the bottom of the kitchen sink. They merge, pop, separate, but it's the same amount of air, just a tiny barrier creating the sense of division to create the idea of "a bubble". That's incarnation. All the soul energy is everywhere all the time, and the creatures and objects we sense are the divisions of that soul energy that creates "souls" (or "discrete packaged units of spirit-energy" if you're allergic to the word soul). In my view, "God" is the term used to describe all the soul energy in the current system, whatever its bounds are (i.e the multiverse), without barriers. In my metaphor, "God" is all the air on Earth, while "me" and "my djinn companion" are two bubbles in my kitchen. There's a lot of air (and bubbles) out there in the world.

That sense of an entity being in your presence is, metaphorically, the moment when one bubble splits into two, or when two bubbles merge and become one. It's a re-drawing of lines of division, but it's the same stuff inside, the same stuff making the barrier. The size and shape (that is, the expression of the thing) changes, but not its essence.

Even if you're on wifi right now, it's called an "air interface" in the telecom industry because it's doing the exact same stuff as a hardline, just with air as the conductor instead of a cable. Our devices are connected, and so are we. This is the moment where bubbles touch, merge and separate. I have a body now, but if I got hit by a train tomorrow, this post would remain. My spirit would remain in this post, to influence those who pass by and read it. That's the nature of spirit, it is enduring and expanding. With this post and my others on this site, my 'body' expands beyond the human form to include the servers WF is hosted on. Our shared body, the body of work of all the posters on WF.

I have done some arguably dumb shit in my pursuit of greater understanding of the nature of reality and consciousness. I spent a winter in Las Vegas meditating under 5G towers in an attempt to spread my consciousness through the connected devices to the cell grid and thereby gain experience from more than one body at a time. While I did have some pretty sweet visions that correlated to my goals and made it feel like a success, I also got cooked by the 5G and had something resembling a sunburn despite sitting in the shade the whole time, so I don't really advise others follow in my footsteps and instead just accept my takeaway that yes, the internet is kind of a branch-off community "organ" that facilitates telepathy. That was my druidic pilgrimage to LV where I attempted to communicate with the wifi spirits, which I fully believe exist as a modern class of nature spirit. See also my post on The Machine Spirit.

I did work in the woods to merge my identity with Oberon, King of the Fae, and my wife can attest we have fairies in our house. We leave them traditional offerings like the first and last crumbs and every now and then they repay us with a favor.
I have a complicated relationship with the elementals, which in my practice the air and water elementals are the weather spirits. I've been taking and integrating laypeople's suggestions for the weather for about seven years and I already understand why the spirits care so little about what humans want for weather, it's all over the place! Everyone has their own favorite season, their own favorite weather in it. I've merged and separated and remerged with the weather spirits so many times I take their attitude to the weather and create little games out of my rituals to keep it fun for me, like "summer ends when my fly kill average drops below 1/day" and keeping a running tally. I have a big stick I go out and shake at the sky to demand rain, knowing full well the only reason it rains after I do it is because the spirits find it hilarious to watch a modern man shake a stick at the sky in the middle of the city.

In my practice, I treat about half my dreams as being some sort of past/alternate life recollection. I view my body as a kind of filter, like a living sponge, that processes experiences that flow through as memories living within soul-particles that enter and leave my body at will. Part of my bargain with the fae was that I would trade a memory with them at the door every time I went between this world and theirs, and it sure as shit has happened. Mundanely it's explained by the fact that I have seizures and lose recall with them, but majiqally, it only started happening after I started thinking of myself as a real-life D&D wizard who forgets his spells after he casts them and has to reread his notes to remember how to cast the spell. After I bargained with the fae to trade memories for wisdom.

I can't recall the name of the elemental king of fire, I'm sure he has a few, but I did a thing where I burnt a lot of my notes as an offering to him. Like, whole notebooks full of writing. I was invoking that scene from Acts 19:19, the idea was essentially that because I didn't have a bunch of money to use as an offering, I could use my notes, which were worth a lot of money.

It wasn't formal because of the nature of the entity, but I've been working with Eris as the face of The Goddess since I was a preteen. The principia discordia's description of Eris and Aneris explains the world so clearly, a greco-american take on the , order by nature makes order out of chaos, and chaos by nature makes chaos out of order, and the world expands because these orders and chaoses are different from the ones that came before, increasing the variety of information in the world and preserving it against stagnation through this mechanism. Nothing makes for a relentless optimist quite like devoting yourself to chaos. It teaches you to enjoy the good times while they last because nothing lasts forever, and to shrug off the bad times because nothing lasts forever. It teaches you not to be upset when the world knocks down your pile of blocks because it used some blocks to knock it down and gave those to you when it did so.

I guess the best way to wrap this post up is to say, you're full of pacts with other spirits, every interaction with your environment is a subtle agreement with it. The planet orcus in astrology is considered the planet of oaths, and you can look at your placement and its transits to consider how your own personal approach to oaths guides your life philosophy or should be reshaped. Consider the ways you treat your coworkers, family, friends and property as subtle reflections of agreements you have with other pieces of Creation, and therefore, as expressions of YOU as an immortal spirit. If you break your video game controller in a rage, that's who you are forever. If you cut someone off in traffic, that's how your immortalized forever in their mind, and it is a subtle "contract" with that person. If you don't change the oil in your car, you've broken your side of the vow you made with your car when you purchased it, to take care of it. There's life in all things, and you'll prove it when you kill your car if you ignore the oil until your engine blows, you understand? And that car is a piece of you, an extension of you, so take care of your things like you're taking care of your own body.

 

[Jade]

Y'all make magick really interesting with your rules.

Here is the quiet part out loud: The rules that you say exist, only exist because you canonized them with your belief. Read that again.

Didn't say it was necessary to make pacts just wondered if you could with specific types of spirits. people often speak of pacts with demons but what about everything else. this was just to hear people thoughts not to make rules.

Post automatically merged: Aug 14, 2026

Djinn and fae and elemental and nature spirit are four ways of saying the same thing in different dialects. I have made some form of pact with an entity I've called out to under one of these names, so with that said, here are my thoughts on the subject of spirits.

In majiq, I find there are basically two categories of entity, and they're in all meaningful ways impossible to separate. There are internally generated phenomena that come across as entities in the mind, and there's stuff that's genuinely external, but nearly imperceptible. Like, people who have done a lot of work with summoning will attest that there's things that happen like the room suddenly feeling warmer or hotter, and this happens to groups of people too. But that's easy to brush off as imperfect air currents from the heating/cooling system of the building. After dozens of experiences, you stop thinking you're being fooled by a draft, but it certainly doesn't make for persuasive evidence to a dabbler or materialist.

I think what is really happening is it's like two soap bubbles merging in the bottom of the kitchen sink. They merge, pop, separate, but it's the same amount of air, just a tiny barrier creating the sense of division to create the idea of "a bubble". That's incarnation. All the soul energy is everywhere all the time, and the creatures and objects we sense are the divisions of that soul energy that creates "souls" (or "discrete packaged units of spirit-energy" if you're allergic to the word soul). In my view, "God" is the term used to describe all the soul energy in the current system, whatever its bounds are (i.e the multiverse), without barriers. In my metaphor, "God" is all the air on Earth, while "me" and "my djinn companion" are two bubbles in my kitchen. There's a lot of air (and bubbles) out there in the world.

Great metaphor

I have done some arguably dumb shit in my pursuit of greater understanding of the nature of reality and consciousness. I spent a winter in Las Vegas meditating under 5G towers in an attempt to spread my consciousness through the connected devices to the cell grid and thereby gain experience from more than one body at a time. While I did have some pretty sweet visions that correlated to my goals and made it feel like a success, I also got cooked by the 5G and had something resembling a sunburn despite sitting in the shade the whole time, so I don't really advise others follow in my footsteps and instead just accept my takeaway that yes, the internet is kind of a branch-off community "organ" that facilitates telepathy. That was my druidic pilgrimage to LV where I attempted to communicate with the wifi spirits, which I fully believe exist as a modern class of nature spirit. See also my post on The Machine Spirit.

Wow, Wifi spirits huh, very interesting. have you ever had full contact?

I guess the best way to wrap this post up is to say, you're full of pacts with other spirits, every interaction with your environment is a subtle agreement with it. The planet orcus in astrology is considered the planet of oaths, and you can look at your placement and its transits to consider how your own personal approach to oaths guides your life philosophy or should be reshaped. Consider the ways you treat your coworkers, family, friends and property as subtle reflections of agreements you have with other pieces of Creation, and therefore, as expressions of YOU as an immortal spirit. If you break your video game controller in a rage, that's who you are forever. If you cut someone off in traffic, that's how your immortalized forever in their mind, and it is a subtle "contract" with that person. If you don't change the oil in your car, you've broken your side of the vow you made with your car when you purchased it, to take care of it. There's life in all things, and you'll prove it when you kill your car if you ignore the oil until your engine blows, you understand? And that car is a piece of you, an extension of you, so take care of your things like you're taking care of your own body.

That is a great way of explaining thank you

 

[Amadeus]

But is everything Orthodox and Islamic so 'hot'?

No not exactly everything. The islamic stuff divides into hot, balanced and cold. Something with a power name in there is considered to be hot. The salawats which are about the prophet, they are not hot, some are. People also divide into those who like the fierce majestic jalali verses and those who do only cold jamali salawats, maybe the DK dalayl khayrat too. Some try to go for a balanced approach. The servants of the hot verses are more fierce.
Anything that is hot and gets often recited will have strong spiritual effects. They start clearing the central channel from within, light blasts through. Then the energy sensitivity will start unlocking. The blockades dissolve and burn away and the light cuts in like a hot knife through butter.
If it all comes through unfiltered then the recitations will make you supremely high, total ecstasy but that is also somewhat of a problem. For the maximum it would have to penetrate straight through. The pineal gland inside starts heating up and then the magic happens.
There are some ultra strong texts over there, so strong that your head will start humming, especially if it all goes right through.

take it if everything was always so hot

If you do the same thing every day the effects will change. You will be processing it until it becomes more and more natural. You unite with the main energy stream behind it. This is also why it is a bit difficult to use 2 streams at once, one will take over another.

Which spirits get mad/jealous though?

Switching between the systems. Maybe you work a lot with some verse servant and suddenly decide to go for x Buddhist deity. The first one will definitely not like that. Seems to be especially so with those from the sufi practices.

what do you recommend asking for in terms of spiritual growth

If you are actively doing such practices then the growth will happen naturally anyway. Everyone has their own goals.

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Orthodox

These practices are hot and crazy yes.

@Jade One of the problems with the agreements. You might mentally notice that the practices make you too hype. Especially if something is recited over and over again rapidly. Too fast, too long sessions and mentally you go out of order. A strange hype mode kicks in. This happens the most with speed-reading 1-2 word mantras.

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The GV daimons, the Astrachios prayer, the Four Demon Kings, the Headless Rite

With the headless rite I can remember some weird effects. The GV invocations (I memorized 3 of them) for a while I think the invocation to Lucifer from there (8-10 years ago) it had destabilizing effects)
Astrachios. I have to experiment with this one, can't remember what happened with it. I don't think I've read it much.

 

[MorganBlack]

invocation to Lucifer from there (8-10 years ago) it had destabilizing effects)

Man, good stuff, Amadeus! I

I hope in time we on WF can put all our heads anf experience together and see if we can help newcomers with some solid general recommendations. I hope this next bit is even helpful for someone.

---------------
For background context:

My first cobbled-together GV ritual was to Lucifer. It was dramatic, but then terrible. (My fault. ) But it put me on the underworld road as I figured out what I was doing. Took some time to get my bearings. I was very secular-brained to start, which has limitations. I should have taken more cues from Folk Catholicism early on (and just chatted more with my curandera aunt, but I was intellectually arrogant), and it took a fair amount of time in the Vodou community to get a better opertive ritual framework.

Oh, Astrachios, also called the "Prayer for Success" goes "Astrachios, Asac, Acra Bedrimuliel, Silat, Arabonas..." and is basically a long list of demon names. The most dramatic manifestations have happened after I basically treated it like an extended mantra and would just say it for a couple of weeks on the hour's drive to the studio and back each day.

I disagree with people who say you can just say whatever you like. GV House Rules, as I understand them, say no. But you can go make your own House, all by yourself, and do this magic stuff all alone. You be you, backaroos.

GV magicians, inspired by JSK and the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours (Lauds, Sext, Vespers, Compline), have taken to using it as a daily Resh and tying it to the solar quarters, which I try to do, but I' super lazy.

-------------------

Ok ,that i just the background trivia to get to where I can say I totally agree about the temporary destabalization and bio-pychic strain.

Totally agreed minor uptick in chaos and weirdness tends to subside after a few performances (But watch out for phycial accidents for a little while! Seriously folks!) - and then things tend to move more smoothly. The daily repitions mitigate this, I have noticed. Full rituala are still intense but are mercifully less common once you have " haunted" your life (and occasional the lives of others) with an ally.

The GV "is" Saturn and Mars coded. Astrachios as litany of demon names and Saturnian and Martial angels .

I THINK it is just how the whole GV / Grand Grim / Black Dragon current rolls, and it breaks things up a bit at first, then it all flows better for some reason. I have to disagree with the person who said demons want to destroy you totally. They want to break apart your 'little you' so more of the divine comes thorugh.

I think they benefit from us doing this, but that is my personal gnosis. They can be prety insistant about our person thesosis (divinzation), but again, I not saying you daimonic contacts will do this,or require it. There are infinte daimons, and they are not all the same.

In my personal gnosis, and from what I can see now of other GV magicians (now that we have more), the entities that respond to the GV are more like Neoplatonic Wrathful Buddhas, who can act plenty demonic if you push them.

So the GV 'tribe', or those that travel along with the GV (and I THINK the other chthonic grims) I have found to be more like the Headless One, Shiva, or Christ in that they want to destroy everything that is not your connection to the Divine. So watch out. We like a lot of our little vanities and sugary bon-bons. There will be more of those later, after the work is done.

What I can't tell right now if any person can just pluck then names and seals out of the process, and wander out into the back alley or woods and make it safely through the underworld to meet them. Maybe? There are "things" that live there too that are not you freind, and you benefit for havng a solid agreement with a demonic ally. A "big bad"to seal with the little bads.

I have found to work with 'hot" things while very "cold" and Saturn is a good guide here. Be cold as ice. Dead inside. I leanred this in Vodu from my dealing with Met Kalfu who is very hot, like all Petwo lwa.

Since I'm all holy now (snort - long story) I have also found other "trick" is to embody divine love and grace . Agape as a universal compassion is "cool" and turns out, from a purely practical socerous stance, is a fine alternative to being a Dead Man. I have found. Not that I am recommending being so mercenary and utilitarian as a permanent stance etiher.

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For more of what this Orphic burning off of the "soot" (nee "Original Sin", in the TradCath mythic framework) the GV daimons can bring , see Mat Hatfield's Substack , whic covers many fine points of a Grimorium Verum practice from a more JSK Thelemic mythic framework (FYI, the more Catholic GV peeps and the Thelemic GV peeps get along just fine, and support each other. )

he "Ordeal" (to use the Book fo the Law term) Matt is went through is reported often enough that it's a feature not a bug. I am a vastly better person for having gone through it. But it's not fun. The Demonalotry community calls it the 'Tower Card' and they have learned it helps you grow your soul. A couple of GV magican's want to try to mitigate the this 'Forced Growing-Up' effect but I am not sure that is even possible or desirable. I guess you could stick with party daimons?

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[Jade]

@Jade One of the problems with the agreements. You might mentally notice that the practices make you too hype. Especially if something is recited over and over again rapidly. Too fast, too long sessions and mentally you go out of order. A strange hype mode kicks in. This happens the most with speed-reading 1-2 word mantras.

Every time we speak i learn something! Very excited to put your advice to work.
I will be sharing my experience with this AND some of my other practices over the coming Years.

Post automatically merged: Aug 14, 2026

I wonder how the demons of the GV would treat me if i am Reciting Psalms everyday. Will definitely experiment.

 

[MorganBlack]

I wonder how the demons of the GV would treat me if i am Reciting Psalms everyday. Will definitely experiment.

Nice! It took many years for me since I am careful about combing "rooms." Much of what we have in modern occult is also meant as theurgic practices and we have to hammer on them until we reshape our soul.

That said, the Seven Penitential Psalms and others are built into House GV. And it's less about moral / ethical purity, or being adversarial to the underworld, than temporarily tamping down all the noise and bustle of life, assuaging guilt, and preparing to approach the Gates of Death and Hell. The whole thing is basially a personal Lent in miniature. There is much overlap, I feel. In Greek culture they will often spit on the ground whenever an Orthodox priest walks by because he "sits" at the gates of death. Bro got it going on.

Oh. Confession is in there as well. JSK adapted one from Crowley and it works, because the the stance of chthonic atonement is imporant and the specific words are less important than adopting contrition and attonment. People act like the ancient pagans didn't take this stance ever, and it was all origes and sticking your fingers down your throat at the vomitorium all the time.

And it's this Saturn 'stuff' that many people in the modern occult culture truly hate because it feels like their mean dad. I had nice parents and Saturn rules my chart from my Ascendant sign. But I get it's asking alot from folks and they'd much rather have infinite party demons. Wouldn't we all?

 

[Jade]

Nice! It took many years for me since I am careful about combing "rooms." Much of what we have in modern occult is also meant as theurgic practices and we have to hammer on them until we reshape our soul.

That said, the Seven Penitential Psalms and others are built into House GV. And it's less about moral / ethical purity, or being adversarial to the underworld, than temporarily tamping down all the noise and bustle of life, assuaging guilt, and preparing to approach the Gates of Death and Hell. The whole thing is basially a personal Lent in miniature. There is much overlap, I feel. In Greek culture they will often spit on the ground whenever an Orthodox priest walks by because he "sits" at the gates of death. Bro got it going on.

Oh. Confession is in there as well. JSK adapted one from Crowley and it works, because the the stance of chthonic atonement is imporant and the specific words are less important than adopting contrition and attonment. People act like the ancient pagans didn't take this stance ever, and it was all origes and sticking your fingers down your throat at the vomitorium all the time.

And it's this Saturn 'stuff' that many people in the modern occult culture truly hate because it feels like their mean dad. I had nice parents and Saturn rules my chart from my Ascendant sign. But I get it's asking alot from folks and they'd much rather have infinite party demons. Wouldn't we all?

Did you have a bad experience Mixing two systems? I think that magicians should be a healthy mix of trad and experimental yk. keeping tradition and also carefully and with respect mixing certain things to get more interesting results.

Interesting, i also see it as a way to condition the mind from mundane to magical before a working especially when the psalms will take some time to recite.

Pagans get so much unnecessary bad rep sometimes, even in occult circles. Many occultist that say they left Christianity have never really left the mindset.

I wish it was all parties but that would get boring quick, we all need a strict dad like saturn.

 

[MorganBlack]

Did you have a bad experience Mixing two systems?

I did not have any issues and they seem to like it, but it's complicated. (And this might apply to other unconventional spirits, dependent on their and your character.)

My two main ritual framework for years was PGM / Thelemic and then Folk Catholic Brujeria. I kept them separate until about 12 years ago I was given a trancendant cosmic vision from reading of JSK 'Serpent Tongue' that put me in an ecstatic trance for three days. Then I was "summoned" by Guland and taken on an adventure, and then apparition of the Virgin starting that relationship, all in a short time. In my original vision I could see how everyting was all related. Coming back I woud say they have to work togther like a good song, or story. And not just be a collection of radom notes that just add noise.

And a least for people with secular-brain like myself , when starting out (and not saying you are) you sort of have to go as far as you can with each system. I needed to hammer it all into my heart and soul, which was parched and dry from the modern urban monoculture I grew up in .My soul was "arid" in alchemical terms. Other people may have different hearts.

So while I have not had any issue, it took a while for me to get there. My "heart"was not in the right place. Yours may very well be right now.

Vodou has a saying I feel is right here, "The spirits never punish innocence" (which takes on added meanings if you pair it with Lenten atonement). If you truly love these things, they will see it and accept it, as long as it at least rhymes with the Story they see themselves as part of. Random and discorant notes are not recommended, and it takes a whileto hear the song we are singing together.

So while Jakes Greco-Egyptian Thelemic framework r works, it's becasue he knew how to "sing with" with the GV "song." That song is one of the Underworld, and he found the notes he liked fromr places outside Catholcism. All good!

I think this works for many classes of daimons. But not all . Some are assholes. Remember. Just because they are gods or daimons, doesn't mean they aren't stupid or pointless.

I still believe in honoring the systems one is using and not trying to meddle with it too much right away, sprinkling it with my personal preferences my "ego" thinks it has a say in..Part of the point of all this ritual "crap" - aside from attracting their attention because you have entered their Story - is to get you out of your own way by hammering in into your heart. I think you have to use each system until you understand the "Big Picture"

And you know when you are at that point when it all comes alive and you start having visions, at least it does for me. It will hit you right where you live and be unmistakable. But I can only speak for people wired like me with - secular but creatives -with similar backgrounds. My way of looking at it would not be very useful for a Haitian hougan or Mexican brujo, who can just run on a Catholic mythic framework. My inclusive lens would make them worse at their jobs.

 

[Jade]

And a least for people with secular-brain like myself , when starting out (and not saying you are) you sort of have to go as far as you can with each system. I needed to hammer it all into my heart and soul, which was parched and dry from the modern urban monoculture I grew up in .My soul was "arid" in alchemical terms. Other people may have different hearts.

So while I have not had any issue, it took a while for me to get there. My "heart"was not in the right place. Yours may very well be right now.

Vodou has a saying I feel is right here, "The spirits never punish innocence" (which takes on added meanings if you pair it with Lenten atonement). If you truly love these things, they will see it and accept it, as long as it at least rhymes with the Story they see themselves as part of. Random and discorant notes are not recommended, and it takes a whileto hear the song we are singing together.

So while Jakes Greco-Egyptian Thelemic framework r works, it's becasue he knew how to "sing with" with the GV "song." That song is one of the Underworld, and he found the notes he liked fromr places outside Catholcism. All good!

I think this works for many classes of daimons. But not all . Some are assholes. Remember. Just because they are gods or daimons, doesn't mean they aren't stupid or pointless.

I still believe in honoring the systems one is using and not trying to meddle with it too much right away, sprinkling it with my personal preferences my "ego" thinks it has a say in..Part of the point of all this ritual "crap" - aside from attracting their attention because you have entered their Story - is to get you out of your own way by hammering in into your heart. I think you have to use each system until you understand the "Big Picture"

And you know when you are at that point when it all comes alive and you start having visions, at least it does for me. It will hit you right where you live and be unmistakable. But I can only speak for people wired like me with - secular but creatives -with similar backgrounds. My way of looking at it would not be very useful for a Haitian hougan or Mexican brujo, who can just run on a Catholic mythic framework. My inclusive lens would make them worse at their jobs.

I see, you have to get you get each system to a certain level (the more systems you work with the longer this can take) it would also help if the systems are somewhat related as well im assuming.
Since this is different for everyone, copying your favorite occult author (people rly do this) becomes even worse.
For some background my practice is rooted in Catholic Saints and angels, will soon be getting my St Cyprian Icon to Merge The more Chthonic
entities into a workable system. I have a living relatives in Hatian voudou but i haven't been able to get into that yet (travel cost). I should take the advice and get to know the entities i work with now better and deep rather than exposing myself to a whole nother world. (maybe after i reach a certain point of mastery)
Thank you for opening my eyes man, i've got something to look foward to.
This is going to be on my mind for a while, i need to make sure i don't forget.

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forgot to mention, I feel like cosmology has an effect on your magic in some way. i mean personal cosmology and what you believe the world to be. engaging in systems that go against that might be problematic until you figure out how to intergrate it.

Post automatically merged: Aug 14, 2026

also read the blog you linked, that guy went through a lot but the rewards were worth it. Maybe one day i'll look into GV with St, Cyprian. right now i just have to do my Daily practices and wait.

 

[MorganBlack]

Aww! Thank you, Jade

St. Cyprian is the dude. I've noticed some magician work Verum with him taking the central place of Scirlin. The Virgin as well, who is more my Queen. The GV can be pretty spooky on it's own - and some magicians I very much respect do not like it served "neat, no ice" as it were.

I like what Mat is doing there. I think I should also point out there has been an influx recently of very well-educated folks, usually British, into House Grim Verum. When I started in the 1990s, I had nothing as sophisticated and it worked, if a bit too dramatically. Vodou gave me all the tools I needed, and it is purely Spiritualist / Folk Catholic. Neoplatonism once internalized also leads to cooler manifestations.

I think what's going on there is similar to myself , for how we secular folks are wired by default. While the English language has produced some of history's most celebrated poets - Shakespeare and Milton to Blake and the Romantics - modern Anglo culture often treats poetry with detachment and disdain. Max Weber argued, and I agree, that Enlightenment rationalism, imperialism, and the rise of scientific materialism stripped Western culture of its mythic, sacred, and magical frameworks.

We are 'arid' internally and gasping for 'soul.' I think Mat is like me, raised secular, and we still rely on our intellect to get past the intellect. He is doing a great job expanding the mythic 'notes' for the GV. Use them, don't use them - I feel all of these are additive as long as the song is right. I only mention this because Anglo occultism thinks the complexity is key. Nobody needs to get a PHD in Renaissance astrology to work the grims. All this gets added there to provide a mythic language when your culture is missing one.

 

[Jade]

Aww! Thank you, Jade

St. Cyprian is the dude. I've noticed some magician work Verum with him taking the central place of Scirlin. The Virgin as well, who is more my Queen. The GV can be pretty spooky on it's own - and some magicians I very much respect do not like it served "neat, no ice" as it were.

I like what Mat is doing there. I think I should also point out there has been an influx recently of very well-educated folks, usually British, into House Grim Verum. When I started in the 1990s, I had nothing as sophisticated and it worked, if a bit too dramatically. Vodou gave me all the tools I needed, and it is purely Spiritualist / Folk Catholic. Neoplatonism once internalized also leads to cooler manifestations.

I think what's going on there is similar to myself , for how we secular folks are wired by default. While the English language has produced some of history's most celebrated poets - Shakespeare and Milton to Blake and the Romantics - modern Anglo culture often treats poetry with detachment and disdain. Max Weber argued, and I agree, that Enlightenment rationalism, imperialism, and the rise of scientific materialism stripped Western culture of its mythic, sacred, and magical frameworks.

We are 'arid' internally and gasping for 'soul.' I think Mat is like me, raised secular, and we still rely on our intellect to get past the intellect. He is doing a great job expanding the mythic 'notes' for the GV. Use them, don't use them - I feel all of these are additive as long as the song is right. I only mention this because Anglo occultism thinks the complexity is key. Nobody needs to get a PHD in Renaissance astrology to work the grims. All this gets added there to provide a mythic language when your culture is missing one.

Yh i've only heard good things about St Cyprian.
Unfortunately Did not like a lot of the intellectual types because they look down on anything that is simple and because this was my first intro to magic i actually got analysis paralysis. i see this with beginners as well with wanting things to be perfect to start or super complex to work. i will share some simple spells here as well to help beginners get started.
I was raised in secular society as well and it takes some unlearning to think more "mythically" but having a spirit model helps
I hope that we can have a good mix of intellectual thought and more spiritual/Shaman fluid view yk.

 

[Xemuno]

Yh i've only heard good things about St Cyprian.
Unfortunately Did not like a lot of the intellectual types because they look down on anything that is simple and because this was my first intro to magic i actually got analysis paralysis. i see this with beginners as well with wanting things to be perfect to start or super complex to work. i will share some simple spells here as well to help beginners get started.
I was raised in secular society as well and it takes some unlearning to think more "mythically" but having a spirit model helps
I hope that we can have a good mix of intellectual thought and more spiritual/Shaman fluid view yk.

The truth is, having been raised in a Catholic institution, it was difficult for me to unlearn certain concepts of guilt and sin. Later, as I got older, I went to the extreme of atheistic scientistic thinking; for me, it all seemed like mere ramblings and fantasies. It took me a moment to find balance again and realize that many entities truly exist outside of us, but that egregoric layers can make them appear slightly different. Furthermore, human egos and mechanisms of social control are embedded in their names, causing them to say things they haven't actually said. Understanding how the matrix operates on the material plane... all these variables are very difficult to grasp, and it's truly necessary to "become like children again"... to relearn everything from scratch.

 

[BMicic]

Not all kinds of things want to exchange something with you. Demons simply want to shave off small pieces of you until nothing remains, but there's little of use you can give an angel or a planet.

I find that distinction interesting, but it seems to me that it oversimplifies the relationship with different entities. If a demon “takes pieces of you,” while you have little to offer an angel or a planet, then the relationship does not necessarily have to be based on exchange. Perhaps it would be more accurate to speak of different kinds of relationships: with some, it may be an exchange; with others, service, alignment, initiation, or simply an attempt to establish contact. I find it especially interesting to think that a relationship with angelic or planetary forces may not work according to the principle of “what can I get in return for what I give,” but rather through a kind of alignment with their symbolism and nature.

 

[Nembra]

I find that distinction interesting, but it seems to me that it oversimplifies the relationship with different entities. If a demon “takes pieces of you,” while you have little to offer an angel or a planet, then the relationship does not necessarily have to be based on exchange. Perhaps it would be more accurate to speak of different kinds of relationships: with some, it may be an exchange; with others, service, alignment, initiation, or simply an attempt to establish contact. I find it especially interesting to think that a relationship with angelic or planetary forces may not work according to the principle of “what can I get in return for what I give,” but rather through a kind of alignment with their symbolism and nature.

The question was about pacts. Alignment is not a pact because no power needs to be exchanged in order to uphold this arrangement.

 

[Keldan]

I was told that any trapped Djinn would be deceased, and what was trapped was their soul and freeing them was a kindness. Was I misinformed?

Yes, you were misinformed. You can work with any djinn that is still alive, and I’m going to use your word of choice to best illustrate my point. What people often describe as “trapped” is not the spirit, but a part of their current. That is all. This is why some individuals can visit thrift stores, unknowingly purchase items carrying these currents, and then experience hauntings or spirit activity in their homes.

What was “trapped” functions more like a text messaging system that allows these spirits to interact with the humans who come into contact with them. There is nothing to “free” because the spirit is not imprisoned. This is why I keep putting “trapped” in quotation marks.

You can’t simply undo these setups. To dismantle such workings, you would need to practice necromancy at a very competent level and be able to summon the exact spirits of the original, dead practitioners who collaborated with these beings in the first place.

In modern practices, the terms “pacts” and “contracts” are heavily overused. What people are actually dealing with are petitions. A genuine pact or contract comes into play when a practitioner can see currents. Only then can a structured agreement be offered and properly maintained.

 

[ZSLMH]

You create your contract/pact, not the other way around. And you should always honor your word. Both in reality, and in the spiritual. I give thanks and gratitude to every spirit I call. And I have caveats for more to come, when a certain situation becomes applicable. I created those terms. Make your ask, make your offer. It happens or it doesn't. The only "risk" is you offering more than you are comfortable giving.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Yes, you were misinformed. You can work with any djinn that is still alive, and I’m going to use your word of choice to best illustrate my point. What people often describe as “trapped” is not the spirit, but a part of their current. That is all. This is why some individuals can visit thrift stores, unknowingly purchase items carrying these currents, and then experience hauntings or spirit activity in their homes.

What was “trapped” functions more like a text messaging system that allows these spirits to interact with the humans who come into contact with them. There is nothing to “free” because the spirit is not imprisoned. This is why I keep putting “trapped” in quotation marks.

You can’t simply undo these setups. To dismantle such workings, you would need to practice necromancy at a very competent level and be able to summon the exact spirits of the original, dead practitioners who collaborated with these beings in the first place.

Thank you for the reply, and the source was unreliable FB 'Sorcerer' who was banned. Yes I get the analogy, would buying one half of a pair of

'walkie-talkies' be accurate? I do resale shop and have (rarely) come across personal items that seemed to 'radiate' a connection I could not handle.

My question is, what if the djinn AND the one who created the item are deceased, would the item still connect to something/one? Or be inert?

 

[Keldan]

My question is, what if the djinn AND the one who created the item are deceased, would the item still connect to something/one? Or be inert?

That depends on the original agreement between the practitioner and the spirit.

As I mentioned above, what people call “trapped” is actually just a portion of their current. Because of this, it doesn’t matter whether the practitioner and the spirit are still alive or have passed on.

Even after the practitioner and the spirit die, their current is still there. This is why if you want to undo or dismantle what was created, you need to be able to summon the original, dead practitioner and work with them directly to unravel the original arrangement they made with the spirit.