Purity of metals for items?

[jakalsa]

Apologies for my fat-fingeredness, if there is any, in this thread as I am using a phone with a bad display.
I was looking into the metal, worn sigils of solomonic magic tonight and I saw someone using 10k gold for a pentacle of Paimon. I understand not everyone has 777 luck or a gamblers hand, as I do not either, but I occasionally question the use of materials by some practitioners, especially those online. I often see modern demonolaters preforming their rituals with aesthetizied altars, offerings, and preformances.
I have nothing against those who practice newer styled demon-summoning, demon-driving, demon binding, or what have you, but I think that people who practice traditional magic (such as solomonic magic) should be weary of misuse of their materials. Of course, not everyone will have a northeastern branch of barley with 3 knots and a quarter grown into its limb, but I think the components of the item used should be looked over thoroughly first. I remember, when I was on an old reddit sub I saw someone suggesting paper talismans, staffs, and swords. Are we not worried that the demon we summon will just spit fire or hurl acid at the off-cuts and burn down our home? I just think its curious.

 

[TransGothGirl]

Using paper (well, usually parchment but that's probably just because it was in more common use than paper when these grimoires were written) along with magical inks in specific colors is a historically acceptable substitute for talismans, lamens, and pentacles that's mentioned in multiple old grimoires. From there, it naturally follows that you could use other materials as well, as long as they share a planetary correspondence with the spirit or energy you're working with.

That being said, you should make sure the material does in fact match up with your intention. If someone is selling, for example, a pentacle of Venus or a seal of a Duke of the Goetia (which should be done in a Venusian material, such as copper) in stainless steel (which, since it's steel, is associated with Mars) it's either not likely to work at all or will have unexpected effects. If, however, the Venusian talisman is made in parchment/paper with green ink (or green paper and an associated ink, like a copper color) or in the wood of a Venusian tree, there should be no difference in effect.

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

Ive often wondered about some of these grimoires, like telling you to make some item out of the purest gold, what the hell do I look like to you, some kind of Medici prince? I don’t care how wealthy you are, making a solid gold lamen, lamp, or whatever is getting a little bit much, never mind collecting herbs at exact planetary times and Christian holy days.
were these like inside jokes and something to keep dabblers from trying magic? I don’t know. But some of it is pretty absurd when you look at it from face value.

i read lon milo duquette saying that if you think you can’t do enochian magic with a paper magic ring, then having one made of solid gold isn’t going to serve you any better. It’s definitely something to keep in mind. Ive got dedicated wood and stone ritual cups and bowls that work for me, and I have seen styrofoam cups and plastic bowls work just as well when they are all that’s available.

fwiw in response to OP, Dr Skinner mentioned in one of his videos that wearing the lion skin belt makes a difference in the spirits (goetia) obeying you, and at the same time that paper crowns are serviceable, at the same time he mentioned that the sword has to be iron/steel and be sharpened. So there’s that.

 

[BlackRose97]

Historically, purity was highly emphasized because it represents a 'clean' channel for specific planetary energies (like pure copper for Venus or pure silver for the Moon). However, in modern practical magick, intent and alignment matter more.

While having a 99.9% pure metal talisman is an amazing anchor, a high-quality alloy often works just as well if you program it correctly. I see physical purity as a way to minimize 'noise' in the energetic transmission, but a strong practitioner can easily overcome minor material impurities with focused willpower and proper consecration.

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

Historically, purity was highly emphasized because it represents a 'clean' channel for specific planetary energies (like pure copper for Venus or pure silver for the Moon). However, in modern practical magick, intent and alignment matter more.

While having a 99.9% pure metal talisman is an amazing anchor, a high-quality alloy often works just as well if you program it correctly. I see physical purity as a way to minimize 'noise' in the energetic transmission, but a strong practitioner can easily overcome minor material impurities with focused willpower and proper consecration.

I wonder how the medieval and renaissance magicians viewed the idea that you’re pointing out? I don’t have an opinion either way, but I wonder if any of them back then considered it the way you’re describing?
We look at the PGM and there doesn’t seem to be that level of concern for the materials.

 

[BlackRose97]

I wonder how the medieval and renaissance magicians viewed the idea that you’re pointing out? I don’t have an opinion either way, but I wonder if any of them back then considered it the way you’re describing?
We look at the PGM and there doesn’t seem to be that level of concern for the materials.

That's a really sharp point, L'chaimGoldberg. I think the difference lies in the accessibility and the intent of the time. In the medieval/renaissance period, their focus was often on creating an 'ideal' ritual environment that could bridge the gap between their own limitations and the divine. They didn't always have the luxury of high-purity materials, but they put so much effort into the consecration to compensate, which proves my point about focused willpower. The PGM often relied more on the raw authority of the operator than the physical substrate. I don't think they disagreed with me; I think they were just working with a different set of constraints!

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

That's a really sharp point, L'chaimGoldberg. I think the difference lies in the accessibility and the intent of the time. In the medieval/renaissance period, their focus was often on creating an 'ideal' ritual environment that could bridge the gap between their own limitations and the divine. They didn't always have the luxury of high-purity materials, but they put so much effort into the consecration to compensate, which proves my point about focused willpower. The PGM often relied more on the raw authority of the operator than the physical substrate. I don't think they disagreed with me; I think they were just working with a different set of constraints!

Yeah I’m not saying they would disagree with you, or that one is right and the other is wrong, I always think about odd subjects and remember “there’s nothing new under the sun”, I notice how modern magic, or at least what passes for it, is almost this atheistic, self deification that puts the magician as an equal to “god” (abrahamic god) or the gods in general. Whereas medieval and renaissance magicians were almost in a constant state of groveling and supplication.
Ive also continually wondered how much of the materials requirements from those grimoires were just a blind. I mean surely SOMEONE back then used an old piece of board or rag to scratch a sigil on and got results, just like nowadays you see TikTok videos where someone is using a sharpie to write on a postit note.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:44 PM

That's a really sharp point, L'chaimGoldberg. I think the difference lies in the accessibility and the intent of the time. In the medieval/renaissance period, their focus was often on creating an 'ideal' ritual environment that could bridge the gap between their own limitations and the divine. They didn't always have the luxury of high-purity materials, but they put so much effort into the consecration to compensate, which proves my point about focused willpower. The PGM often relied more on the raw authority of the operator than the physical substrate. I don't think they disagreed with me; I think they were just working with a different set of constraints!

Talking about the intent of the time, we see a lot of angel and demon magic centered around learning material science like astronomy and metallurgical technology, and with folk magic it’s all love spells rofl.

As a historical reconstructionist I would love to find out more about the views of the ancient Egyptian mages, though since they were mostly just priests moonlighting on the si, I guess I should just study Egyptian cosmology and ritual beliefs

 

[BlackRose97]

Yeah I’m not saying they would disagree with you, or that one is right and the other is wrong, I always think about odd subjects and remember “there’s nothing new under the sun”, I notice how modern magic, or at least what passes for it, is almost this atheistic, self deification that puts the magician as an equal to “god” (abrahamic god) or the gods in general. Whereas medieval and renaissance magicians were almost in a constant state of groveling and supplication.
Ive also continually wondered how much of the materials requirements from those grimoires were just a blind. I mean surely SOMEONE back then used an old piece of board or rag to scratch a sigil on and got results, just like nowadays you see TikTok videos where someone is using a sharpie to write on a postit note.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:44 PM

Talking about the intent of the time, we see a lot of angel and demon magic centered around learning material science like astronomy and metallurgical technology, and with folk magic it’s all love spells rofl.

As a historical reconstructionist I would love to find out more about the views of the ancient Egyptian mages, though since they were mostly just priests moonlighting on the si, I guess I should just study Egyptian cosmology and ritual beliefs

L'chaimGoldberg, I really resonate with your observation about the shift from supplication to self-deification. Personally, I find myself drawn more to that older way of working not out of weakness, but out of a deep sense of respect. There’s something about approaching the divine or higher spheres with humility and a genuine request that feels much more 'human' to me. I suspect that at higher levels of existence, sincerity and humanity are valued far more than the ego-driven need to command. It feels like a more authentic bridge to build.

 

[L’chaimGoldberg]

L'chaimGoldberg, I really resonate with your observation about the shift from supplication to self-deification. Personally, I find myself drawn more to that older way of working not out of weakness, but out of a deep sense of respect. There’s something about approaching the divine or higher spheres with humility and a genuine request that feels much more 'human' to me. I suspect that at higher levels of existence, sincerity and humanity are valued far more than the ego-driven need to command. It feels like a more authentic bridge to build.

I was talking about something along these lines with an acquaintance, about the type of people we see today. The topic revolved around the liberal/leftist vs radical right/dissident right ideologies but the same kind of thing can be said about religion and metaphysical beliefs.
modern people think they’re so much better than previous generations, that somehow they’re above them. I’m a reconstructionist pagan, which means I try to do everything as close to what my ancestors in Europe did. This applies to worldviews and morality and daily life. I see these “Facebook pagans” and I’m so horrified and disgusted that I can’t even put it into words. How much more so to look at people practicing what was a sacred art saying that they’re gods, that they command destiny, that they’re co-creators of the universe with the ones who actually created it, it’s ludicrous. I really notice that in the goetic world, where people think they’re going to talk to spirits like they’re the doorman at a hotel. Like who the F—- do you think you are? “Hey b—-, get over here and do what I say”. The disrespect!!!! Imagine how you would feel if someone came over to your house and started talking to you like that?

the gods are real, plato notwithstanding, and they have their own life and actions and rules and agendas. It’s our responsibility to get on board with them, to align ourselves and our goals with what they’re doing, not the other way around. Interestingly all of the spiritual books (everyone calls themselves “spiritual” now) say the exact same thing. It’s not about battering The universe into conformity with our wishes, but align ourselves with the universe and its flow.

and people have taken the whole “will” to absurd lengths that I’m sure were never intended by people who first wrote about it. Crowley writing about the will of your higher self has become conflated with egocentric “i want”.

The other thing is the sense of ENTITLEMENT that seems to be the prevailing narrative of today. “I deserve” as opposed to just accepting life as it comes. I see it in society with these political identitarians as well as in magic. People really think and feel at their core that the universe owes them something, WHERE they get these sentiments of course society tells everyone that they’re equal and valuable and precious and deserve certain things just because they exist. That’s not how life and nature works and when we go against nature’s eternal laws, we run into problems.

okay, rant over. 🫡

Oh, and what you mentioned about the earlier way, I have enough sense to know that the gods are more powerful than I am and act accordingly. You see these facebook playgans saying “we don’t kneel before our gods!” well yeah, because you’re not a pagan. Our ancestors not only knelt they sometimes laid flat on their faces on the ground in front of the gods, there’s tons of historical evidence of them kneeling before kings how much more so the gods??? The universe is hierarchical and, unsurprisingly, no human is at the top of the hierarchy.