[Opinion] Relationship between worshiper and their god

[Morell]

This bugs my mind. I was thinking about the dynamics of relationship between a worshiper and their god. It seems to me, at least nowadays, to be a dynamics of slave and a master. Worshiper serves the god, worships and admires, listen tot he commands of the god and must keep them in attempt to appease the master (the god) and hopefully be rewarded, but there is no telling if the master will do that like ever. Master can do whatever he wants and is the one who can put whatever price on the slave he feels right. Even can abandon him fully if he doesn't like the slave anymore.

I never really felt like worshiping the gods, I rather prefered friendship, which was relationship of trust and love. Not that it cannot appear between master and slave, but the power dynamic is just way different.

What do you think? is worshipping like being a slave?

 

[KjEno186]

Since worship in most organized religions involves a priesthood, and priesthoods like power and control, then yes, it's rather convenient for worship to take on a master-slave dynamic. I don't like the word "worship" for that reason as it implies such a relationship to me.

 

[8Lou1]

i ance 'met' a moslem on reddit and he said he was like a slave to allah. i asked him to explain, cause even in the qoran it writes that slavery is forbidden. i came to understand it as a healing process. when you for example take aspirin to stop a headache your body gives in to the medicine and it gets healed, nothing you can do about that. so its a giving into something you know is good for you.

slavery by a 'god' can also be a very annoying spirit who thinks bdsm is a way to gain real power (sadly one of my experiences with the aset ka). as one of the more stupid examples i can give, annoy and entertain.

i think worshipping is like walking a thin line while being blind and crippled. sometimes needed to get out of danger, but by no means the first tool one uses. rather a last resort.

 

[Ziran]

there is no telling if the master will do that

If it was quid-pro-quo, then the worship would be coerced, transactional. A truly free choice is lacking both the "carrot" and the "stick".

is worshipping like being a slave?

Only in odd, extreme cases.

If the worshipper is choosing to supplicate and submit, then it cannot be considered slavery in the conventional manner.

 

[CunningWyse]

I think it's essential that we distinguish between Abrahamic worship of God and the polytheist worship and veneration of Gods. You are absolutely spot on when you talk about a feeling of building a relationship with the gods and the spirits. Any practice with animist roots will seek to live in communion and Community with the Divine spirits, Earthly Spirits, and Chthonic spirits. Our relationships with them are reciprocal, and like our relationships with other people, you can't just expect things from strangers. You have to build relationships, so you give your offerings, you give your time, and eventually they will get to know you. In time, the spirits become comfortable with you. Maybe you will even make pacts with a few. But to reiterate, you are absolutely correct that the pagan, polytheist, and animist approach to worship and veneration is about building relationships and reciprocity.

 

[virginia24]

This is interesting to think about. I’m more one to keep a relationship/friendship with a deity than to worship, but I will say there are moments where I’m deeply thankful for and in awe of the powers of different gods. For example when a much needed rain storm moves over head, I certainly pay reverence to it, but more like saying hi to and supporting a friend who’s doing something positive for the community. I do think we can willingly give power to gods to contribute to a greater work and receive support in turn, without having to be on our knees, so to speak.

This subject also makes me think of a horror novel I read, the Lost Gods, where the main character goes into purgatory to save his wife and child’s souls from an essentially vampiric family member, and in purgatory, the gods powers are derived from their worshipers, all having their own egregoric structure they obtain power from. Then there are human souls in purgatory trying to form their own order without gods, by amassing their own followers against the gods, who turn out to be just as, if not more tyrannical than any of the gods.

 

[Morell]

This is interesting to think about. I’m more one to keep a relationship/friendship with a deity than to worship, but I will say there are moments where I’m deeply thankful for and in awe of the powers of different gods. For example when a much needed rain storm moves over head, I certainly pay reverence to it, but more like saying hi to and supporting a friend who’s doing something positive for the community. I do think we can willingly give power to gods to contribute to a greater work and receive support in turn, without having to be on our knees, so to speak.

This subject also makes me think of a horror novel I read, the Lost Gods, where the main character goes into purgatory to save his wife and child’s souls from an essentially vampiric family member, and in purgatory, the gods powers are derived from their worshipers, all having their own egregoric structure they obtain power from. Then there are human souls in purgatory trying to form their own order without gods, by amassing their own followers against the gods, who turn out to be just as, if not more tyrannical than any of the gods.

Must had been quite interesting novel. I've heard some theories that earth is in hell, just the first level or something, the most soft hell, but hell already. It's not that hard to imagine, actually.

 

[virginia24]

It was an amusing read, if you can get past the fact that it borrows loosely from mythology. The author is Brom, who was a video game illustrator before branching out.

Haha I hear you there, not hard to believe at all in some ways… but I still wrestle with my concept of cosmology. I can’t help but feel extremely connected to the earth and its spirits (are earth spirits and underworld spirits even different really? I’m not certain) in a positive way, regardless of how much suffering goes on here. It’s not the fault of any creative or destructive natural deity that we human souls seem to bring a lot of chaos into being with the power we do have, or that we often have an inhibitory fear of death and bad relationship with the process. And there is so much beauty in what is brought into creation by people out of love, and what life can be if you are open and don’t cling to things.

As above, so below

 

[Morell]

I don't bother too much with seeking for universal concept of reality. All we have are small maps of very small part seen through colored glasses. No one knows the truth. That ended it for me and I don't bother anymore. I seek to advance on what I know and learn more, but I keep in mind that ultimately we always find ourselves to be somehow wrong.

No pretending, I do not love this world and I definitely do not love humanity, so I'm not really enjoying the beauty a lot...

 

[virginia24]

I agree we can never really know the truth, but find no issue with trying to make sense of our own view in the world. I think it’s amazing to look back at all the concepts of reality people have had thus far.

I’m sorry to hear you are having such a rough time here.

 

[Ziran]

I do not love this world and I definitely do not love humanity, so I'm not really enjoying the beauty a lot...

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I think it depends a lot on a person's capacity for having a relationship. Some are only able to hold very shallow relationships with other humans, these people are often the most barbaric and violent, and these types are also the kind who accept simple priest-flock religions. A person's ability to interact with humans that doesn't suddenly expand in a spiritual context, their deepest human relationship is likely as deep as their spiritual relationships will be. A lot of people with shallow capabilities go for the "Slave-Master" dynamic because it's the simplest, most archaic type, it's the easiest to access. Because the majority of the planet's population are at this simple state, it'll be the one that you hear of the most, but it's far from the only kind. Your perspective matches the Gnostic view of religion, with the overbearing Ruler/King Demiurge/Jehova that demands worship on threat of death.

Personally, I've found that a "Parental" way of looking at a God to be a lot more mature. What do your parents want for you? To become as successful - if not more - than they are. Parents teach you, discipline you when you absolutely deserve it, let you learn at your own pace, and more than anything they love you. If you apply the As Above So Below law, this would be clearly expressed in our natural human dynamics. If you were fortunate enough to have a good father, you would look up to Mother Earth or Father Sky with the same devotion. God wants the best for you the way your father would, because he wants you to become as powerful as he is.

Bhakti Yoga is much more charged and isn't for me, but I still think it's more beneficial and developed than the slave-master dynamic because it's based on love, rather than submission, this is also the kind of love for God that Sufism teaches. This comes out of a devotion the same way one would feel towards a lover. You love beauty, you love warfare, you love chaos, you love being the outsider in an insane world, you love the mystery that comes from your mortal condition, these Gods that make the world happen do it for you, and you love them as their mortal lover.

In my opinion, the most profound dynamic to have with your creator comes from Esoteric teachings like Nonduality and the Tree of Life. Malkuth is the Omega, Kether is the Alpha, and they are one in the same. This relationship with God is similar to achieving communion with the HGA, one that allows no room for identity or separation, it's a direct experience of eternity, the Dao, of merging with Brahman, etc.

My interaction with the Gods is one of a seed in soil, I am grateful to exist, to grow and thrive off their nourishment. I do not worship my Gods, I am genuinely thankful to them, for all of my suffering, and my pleasure, because without it no development would be able to happen at all.

 

[virginia24]

Your perspective matches the Gnostic view of religion, with the overbearing Ruler/King Demiurge/Jehova that demands worship on threat of death.

Personally, I've found that a "Parental" way of looking at a God to be a lot more mature. What do your parents want for you? To become as successful - if not more - than they are. Parents teach you, discipline you when you absolutely deserve it, let you learn at your own pace, and more than anything they love you. If you apply the As Above So Below law, this would be clearly expressed in our natural human dynamics. If you were fortunate enough to have a good father, you would look up to Mother Earth or Father Sky with the same devotion. God wants the best for you the way your father would, because he wants you to become as powerful as he is.

…

My interaction with the Gods is one of a seed in soil, I am grateful to exist, to grow and thrive off their nourishment. I do not worship my Gods, I am genuinely thankful to them, for all of my suffering, and my pleasure, because without it no development would be able to happen at all.

You make some great points, but I am failing to see where anyone above expressed a view about an overbearing god that demands worship on threat of death. Everyone above was pretty much expressing that they appreciate having a relationship with gods, not following a slave/master dynamic.

I also want to say, and I assume there are others on this forum who can relate, that just because you weren’t fortunate enough to have a positive relationship with your blood parents, does not mean you can’t have a wonderful relationship with the earth mother or star father. You can also have love for your parents despite a troubling relationship. I also think it is best to be careful not to parentify any god too much, if you really want to stand on your own two feet. A teacher can be found in anyone, any spirit, any god-they don’t have to be parents, necessarily.

I certainly agree with your last statement about being a seed, being thankful for the gods and not worshipping them, and enjoying the process of life-the process is what it’s all about!

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I am failing to see where anyone above expressed a view about an overbearing god that demands worship on threat of death. Everyone above was pretty much expressing that they appreciate having a relationship with gods, not following a slave/master dynamic.

I reference you to the post that generated this thread.

It seems to me, at least nowadays, to be a dynamics of slave and a master.

What do you think? is worshipping like being a slave?

that just because you weren’t fortunate enough to have a positive relationship with your blood parents, does not mean you can’t have a wonderful relationship with the earth mother or star father.

I said this as well, with the respectful acknowledgement that those who were fortunate enough to have good parents can easily relate to this dynamic, I never intended to say that those with shit parents are outta luck.

I also think it is best to be careful not to parentify any god too much,

We can agree to disagree, every person has their own belief, however, given that you would not exist without some kind of external existential factor, you can thank someone for making the world your parents were born into that created you, even if that is not a direct deity and a simple abstraction like Dao, The All, Brahman, Buddha, Atum, etc.

I certainly agree with your last statement about being a seed, being thankful for the gods and not worshipping them, and enjoying the process of life-the process is what it’s all about!

Cute.

 

[Faria]

What do you think? is worshipping like being a slave?

I do not believe in gods to whom one might pledge service or loyalty, but rather believe in only one transcendent God.

To worship God is to know and love existence, to find and follow the rules of life whatever those might be. I don't see that as a set of laws to obey in spite of existence, but the fabric of existence itself; that moral and natural law are fundamentally identical. We cannot ever know that law, but we must submit to it or inevitably there will be trouble of one sort or another.

I regard all individual gods, their agendas, their instructions, their professed identities, as total fiction borne of human ignorance and wishful thinking.

IMO if any spirit, deitiy, etc tells you to do anything or appoints you any sort of representative, stamp that shit "Return to Sender" and tell it to F off. If you can, and survive, that was not God.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die_Hard]

This bugs my mind. I was thinking about the dynamics of relationship between a worshiper and their god. It seems to me, at least nowadays, to be a dynamics of slave and a master. Worshiper serves the god, worships and admires, listen tot he commands of the god and must keep them in attempt to appease the master (the god) and hopefully be rewarded, but there is no telling if the master will do that like ever. Master can do whatever he wants and is the one who can put whatever price on the slave he feels right. Even can abandon him fully if he doesn't like the slave anymore.

I never really felt like worshiping the gods, I rather prefered friendship, which was relationship of trust and love. Not that it cannot appear between master and slave, but the power dynamic is just way different.

What do you think? is worshipping like

This bugs my mind. I was thinking about the dynamics of relationship between a worshiper and their god. It seems to me, at least nowadays, to be a dynamics of slave and a master. Worshiper serves the god, worships and admires, listen tot he commands of the god and must keep them in attempt to appease the master (the god) and hopefully be rewarded, but there is no telling if the master will do that like ever. Master can do whatever he wants and is the one who can put whatever price on the slave he feels right. Even can abandon him fully if he doesn't like the slave anymore.

I never really felt like worshiping the gods, I rather prefered friendship, which was relationship of trust and love. Not that it cannot appear between master and slave, but the power dynamic is just way different.

What do you think? is worshipping like being a slave?

I think it depends on if the God/Goddess makes you follow a particular protocol that’s non-negotiable. It’s a big reason I don’t understand Christianity. For them you HAVE to accept their Christ to earn reward. Reminds me of the carrot or the stick technique. Some follow like blind sheep because they need to feel a purpose in this reality. Which I don’t blame them when you observe how normal society acts.

 

[Audiolog Edu]

I want to put my understanding on this topic, according to the Aurum Solis a God is something that is made by humans and with help of the Divine, let me quote from my book "Entrance to the Magical Qabbalah":

"The development of a god is a process which becomes clearer if we trace its upward course. A group of people, let us say, feel moved to worship by their contemplation of a certain sublime concept Equally they may have been moved by practical needs to seek, emotionally and spiritually. for a divine provider or protector of a particular type: to bring them perhaps victory in war, or prosperity in peace. They image to themselves such a being, and according to the traditions of their race they create a mode of worship for this being.
The creative imagination of the devotees will shape in the astral world (the World of Yetzirah) a likeness, more or less distinctly formulated, of the deity as they conceive of it; and this likeness will become a focal point for the emotions and impulses generated in their worship. These emotions and impulses likewise are of the World of Yetzirah. Even at this stage, a certain degree of power will become discernible in the cult, but this power is only derived from the energies projected by the emotions and impulses of the devotees themselves. It will therefore be transitory and inconsistent The astral shape which will be imbued with these energies will lack permanence and, should the cult fail, will ultimately fall back into the general flow of the astral light; but in certain circumstances an astral shape animated in this way can outlast the cult itself for a very considerable time. However, we can suppose that among the emotions and impulses of the devotees whose activities we have been following, there are some - perhaps many - which rise above the astral level by reason of their aspiration and close affinity to one or more of the divine archetypes: that of Justice for example, or that of Mercy, or of Love."

According to the AS our Gods, not the Creator of all but the Gods who are associated to Divine Archetypes, this Gods can be created by cult members worshipping the "idea" of a God, and they feed on our energy, emotions, etc. Ive heard of Abraxas is a forgoten God, few probably worship him but maybe is weak in the 4 Worlds of Emanation.
I would say I do worship and seek a relationship with these Gods, but I would not act as an slave, because I know for example that Gods wont give me a million dollars, but maybe worshiping Zeus I would find a job that help with money problems.
This is actually what I belive and I have not studied other types of Hermetic Qabbalah.

 

[Morell]

That's a good theory. Might actually be true about some of the deities. In short it is maybe something like: humans create god to create humans.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

My hot take on this is that your organisation requires lots of people to be 'in step' for any magical workings to have more chance of succeeding - even if bog-standard prayers are half-assed 'magical workings'.

The 'deity' in this case is purely an agreed-on belief system.

 

[darkdevotion1]

dont think reverence is wrong and certainly dont see anything negative about being deferential to a superior being. when humans have tried to make themselves into semi-gods they have always messed things up. true gods are not human.