satanism

[sigil.cambion]

what’s ur personal opinion on the back ground/history of anticosmic satanism

 

[Nembra]

Yet another offshoot of gnosticism. The music is kind of interesting at times but the philosophy frankly seems just edgy, derivative and ultimately really depressing.

 

[Morgast]

Yes, i know Chaosgnosticism and MLO. I am satanist, but this? Sorry. Not for me. This pseudo-chaldean version is very smiling. And additional, this is not Gnosticism! Only stupid version "anti-cosmic" and depresive vision of world. You remeber! Satan is a pleasure from life and from world!

 

[Wintruz]

what’s ur personal opinion on the back ground/history of anticosmic satanism

Self-reinforcing severe depression masquerading as metaphysics.

Apprehending truth depends on clarity of mind. The anticosmic set have come to a delusional place: they believe that the despair through which they see the universe is clarity and they won't be challenged on this conclusion. That they become hostile when presented with the fact of beauty, love, goodness, is an indication that this is about a peculiar, personal need for certainty rather than a genuine understanding of life. That makes it counter-initiatory and that's a serious "No, no".

 

[EliotDespies]

What interests me about anti-cosmic Satanism is that it seems to be asking a different question than most other forms of Satanism.

I don't think it has to mean that pleasure, beauty or good things don't exist. Obviously they do. The question is whether their existence automatically makes the cosmic order itself something good. And I don't really see it as simple nihilism. The basic idea seems pretty clear to me: the cosmos means order, limitation, conditioning; chaos is supposed to be something prior to, or outside, all of that. Whether that actually makes sense is another question.

Same with the gnostic element. I wouldn't claim MLO is some direct continuation of ancient gnosticism, because it clearly isn't. But it obviously takes a bunch of gnostic themes and rebuilds them into something modern. I suppose a lot of the disagreement comes down to what "liberation" is supposed to mean in the first place. Living freely in the world? Or getting beyond the conditions of that world altogether? Neither definition strikes me as self-evident.

And as a general rule, none of this seems to require a shotgun.

Also, the catholic church attracts pedophiles; it doesn't spawn them in some basement under the Vatican. I suspect anti-cosmic stuff can work the same way. A worldview like this is probably going to attract some people who were already inclined to make spectacularly bad decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean the philosophy manufactured them from scratch.

Anyway, I miss Dissection and The Devil's Blood. I would've preferred it if they'd become evangelicals.

Post automatically merged: Tuesday at 5:53 PM

What interests me about anti-cosmic Satanism is that it seems to be asking a different question than most other forms of Satanism.

I don't think it has to mean that pleasure, beauty or good things don't exist. Obviously they do. The question is whether their existence automatically makes the cosmic order itself something good. And I don't really see it as simple nihilism. The basic idea seems pretty clear to me: the cosmos means order, limitation, conditioning; chaos is supposed to be something prior to, or outside, all of that. Whether that actually makes sense is another question.

Same with the gnostic element. I wouldn't claim MLO is some direct continuation of ancient gnosticism, because it clearly isn't. But it obviously takes a bunch of gnostic themes and rebuilds them into something modern. I suppose a lot of the disagreement comes down to what "liberation" is supposed to mean in the first place. Living freely in the world? Or getting beyond the conditions of that world altogether? Neither definition strikes me as self-evident.

And as a general rule, none of this seems to require a shotgun.

Also, the catholic church attracts pedophiles; it doesn't spawn them in some basement under the Vatican. I suspect anti-cosmic stuff can work the same way. A worldview like this is probably going to attract some people who were already inclined to make spectacularly bad decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean the philosophy manufactured them from scratch.

Anyway, I miss Dissection and The Devil's Blood. I would've preferred it if they'd become evangelicals.

Nah, I just remembered Dave Mustaine. I take back that last part.

 

[Nembra]

The basic idea seems pretty clear to me: the cosmos means order, limitation, conditioning; chaos is supposed to be something prior to, or outside, all of that.

Yeah, the point is that it's rather untrue. There is nothing more limiting than disorder (not chaos, by the way, chaos is a form of order).

 

[EliotDespies]

Yeah, the point is that it's rather untrue. There is nothing more limiting than disorder (not chaos, by the way, chaos is a form of order).

That's fair. I was using "chaos" in the way the anti-cosmic current itself uses the word, rather than meaning simple disorder or randomness.

And I agree that disorder isn't necessarily freedom at all. In practical terms it can be incredibly limiting.

Actually, your point makes the terminology more interesting, because if chaos itself still implies some kind of structure or order, then the whole cosmos/order vs chaos distinction becomes a lot less straightforward than it first appears.

 

[Soror Epihania]

Anticosmic guys have made some of my favorite music ever. I have fondness for Selim Lemouchi, in particular, he's a sort of anti-Saint to me. For the most part though anti-cosmic stuff seems like spiritually bypassing depression into a counterfeit enlightenment. As much as I respect Jon Noidtveidt as a musician, his interviews around his beliefs tended to be a bunch of psuedo-Nietzschean nonsense, not to mention he was a literaly murderer. These currents present themselves as circles of elite spiritual warriors, yet they lack the fortitude to cope with life's inherent tragedy and the pain of embodied existence. It's blackpilled anti-natalism dressed up in esoteric trappings, and like any blackpilled community it provides cover and avenues for infiltration by crypto-Fascists who'd love nothing more than seeing the non-white, non-western majority of humanity culled down to nothing.

Some of the ToTBL stuff is interesting, the Liber Falxifer trilogy and Book of Sitra Achra do look like very sophisticated systems of magic, though both are appropriated from other sources, the former from South American folk traditions, the latter from Kabbalah, particularly the work of Nathan of Gaza.

I was quite anti-cosmic myself at one time. My occult awakening began in a place where I was deeply despairing over the value of life and creation. The idea of escaping the world into infinite nothingness seemed attractive, but in retrospect it was mostly depression and suicidal ideation. It did lead me to goetia, traditional witchcraft, and the Nag Hammadi texts, both of which have brought me to a much better place, but that involved admitting how much my hatred of God and life was simply me projecting self-hatred onto the whole cosmos which is not a path towards real spiritual growth.

I don't think it's a path with nothing of value. The extremely aggressive energy of these currents can upend your whole world in my experience and if given good direction that can make for effective practice. Just don't destroy your soul in the attempt.

 

[Nembra]

That's fair. I was using "chaos" in the way the anti-cosmic current itself uses the word, rather than meaning simple disorder or randomness.

And I agree that disorder isn't necessarily freedom at all. In practical terms it can be incredibly limiting.

Actually, your point makes the terminology more interesting, because if chaos itself still implies some kind of structure or order, then the whole cosmos/order vs chaos distinction becomes a lot less straightforward than it first appears.

I mean, it goes down to the real definition of chaos. Chaotic systems are at least in certain respects unpredictable while still adhering to strict laws. Weather and smoke patterns, most of biology, even - though subtly - the motions of celestial bodies are chaotic.

Freedom is the ability to take action, which in turn requires potential - an order. The "dividing light form darkness" if we want to use the ancient metaphor. Only then can the lifegiving entropy, which is the source of all complex structures, run its course.

 

[EliotDespies]

I mean, it goes down to the real definition of chaos. Chaotic systems are at least in certain respects unpredictable while still adhering to strict laws. Weather and smoke patterns, most of biology, even - though subtly - the motions of celestial bodies are chaotic.

Freedom is the ability to take action, which in turn requires potential - an order. The "dividing light form darkness" if we want to use the ancient metaphor. Only then can the lifegiving entropy, which is the source of all complex structures, run its course.

I agree that disorder by itself isn't freedom. But I don't think that necessarily creates a problem for the anti-cosmic idea. The conditioned ego isn't supposed to be the whole Self, and cosmic order can be understood as restricting an already existing potential by forcing it into particular forms.

I'm also not sure the order we perceive has to be fundamental. Nietzsche's point about concepts freezing a world of constant becoming seems relevant here. We need stable categories to function, but that doesn't necessarily mean reality itself is made of stable categories.

And I wonder how much the aesthetics affect the way all this gets read. Terence McKenna could talk endlessly about ego death and dissolving ordinary categories and nobody assumes he means sitting in a basement wishing he was dead. Put similar ideas next to black metal, sigils and ritual Satanism and suddenly they look much more depressing. I know people who hear that whole Carpathian Forest atmosphere and sink into the sofa, and others who hear the same thing and feel more alive. Maybe some of it really is just winter people and summer people.

Post automatically merged: Wednesday at 10:30 AM

Anticosmic guys have made some of my favorite music ever. I have fondness for Selim Lemouchi, in particular, he's a sort of anti-Saint to me. For the most part though anti-cosmic stuff seems like spiritually bypassing depression into a counterfeit enlightenment. As much as I respect Jon Noidtveidt as a musician, his interviews around his beliefs tended to be a bunch of psuedo-Nietzschean nonsense, not to mention he was a literaly murderer. These currents present themselves as circles of elite spiritual warriors, yet they lack the fortitude to cope with life's inherent tragedy and the pain of embodied existence. It's blackpilled anti-natalism dressed up in esoteric trappings, and like any blackpilled community it provides cover and avenues for infiltration by crypto-Fascists who'd love nothing more than seeing the non-white, non-western majority of humanity culled down to nothing.

Some of the ToTBL stuff is interesting, the Liber Falxifer trilogy and Book of Sitra Achra do look like very sophisticated systems of magic, though both are appropriated from other sources, the former from South American folk traditions, the latter from Kabbalah, particularly the work of Nathan of Gaza.

I was quite anti-cosmic myself at one time. My occult awakening began in a place where I was deeply despairing over the value of life and creation. The idea of escaping the world into infinite nothingness seemed attractive, but in retrospect it was mostly depression and suicidal ideation. It did lead me to goetia, traditional witchcraft, and the Nag Hammadi texts, both of which have brought me to a much better place, but that involved admitting how much my hatred of God and life was simply me projecting self-hatred onto the whole cosmos which is not a path towards real spiritual growth.

I don't think it's a path with nothing of value. The extremely aggressive energy of these currents can upend your whole world in my experience and if given good direction that can make for effective practice. Just don't destroy your soul in the attempt.

"Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar": Traveler, there is no path; the path is made by walking. Sometimes a path can be worth taking even if it isn't where you end up.

Best album ever by the way:

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[Nembra]

I agree that disorder by itself isn't freedom. But I don't think that necessarily creates a problem for the anti-cosmic idea. The conditioned ego isn't supposed to be the whole Self, and cosmic order can be understood as restricting an already existing potential by forcing it into particular forms.

Potential does not exist in any way that's not order. Things need to be separated, excluded and restricted in order for any channels of action to exist.

I'm also not sure the order we perceive has to be fundamental. Nietzsche's point about concepts freezing a world of constant becoming seems relevant here. We need stable categories to function, but that doesn't necessarily mean reality itself is made of stable categories.

Well, then there's some overarching order we don't perceive. This doesn't point towards any anticosmic ideas.

And I wonder how much the aesthetics affect the way all this gets read. Terence McKenna could talk endlessly about ego death and dissolving ordinary categories and nobody assumes he means sitting in a basement wishing he was dead. Put similar ideas next to black metal, sigils and ritual Satanism and suddenly they look much more depressing. I know people who hear that whole Carpathian Forest atmosphere and sink into the sofa, and others who hear the same thing and feel more alive. Maybe some of it really is just winter people and summer people.

It certainly should not. I think the very idea, regardless of the packaging, is a very sad one. The fact that I notice it's easy to sell by certain means to certain personalities as uplifting or desirable doesn't do much to change that,

 

[erecshyrinol]

It's something that's been of interest to me for quite some time. Hardest part is finding the actual books or decent PDF's of their publishing company IXAXAAR to actually be able to study the practice, as I think at this point they announced they'll no longer be printing "The Book of Sitra Achra" anymore, which is the basis to how they operate now. You can find some decent (somewhat bad translations) of Liber Azerate, which was their first publication on their core beliefs but it's quite outdated to their modern works from what I can tell. The "Liber Falxifer" books are somewhat easier to find copies and PDF's of, but that is based more on Quimbanda and Qayin (Cain) as the Lord of Death. It still follows in that "Anti-Cosmic" tradition but is more focused on Death as a deity and not so much Chaos.

 

[HermesX3]

Perhaps upto a point exploring different currents does make sense, but choosing a path should be done more thoroughly. In the end Chaos at its core is entropy. It is a tool, quite a useful one once you understand it and lean into the challenge of integrating it and always being aware of it to maintain the self at its peak.

I think you should devote more time to understanding the essence of the LHP. Not just the surface stuff of the dogma. LHP is the western occult tradition's tantric path. Take a look at Demons of Flesh by Nicholas Shrek. That was an eye opener for me. It is intellectually challenging, but well worth it. If you need the basic intro then Apotheosis by Michael W. Ford(just ignore the come on man really kind of stuff and focus on the framework instead.) Also worth taking a look is Universal Mastery by Jeremiah Swartz(kabbalistic qliphotic stuff but but very good at explaining the philosophy).

 

[EliotDespies]

It's something that's been of interest to me for quite some time. Hardest part is finding the actual books or decent PDF's of their publishing company IXAXAAR to actually be able to study the practice, as I think at this point they announced they'll no longer be printing "The Book of Sitra Achra" anymore, which is the basis to how they operate now. You can find some decent (somewhat bad translations) of Liber Azerate, which was their first publication on their core beliefs but it's quite outdated to their modern works from what I can tell. The "Liber Falxifer" books are somewhat easier to find copies and PDF's of, but that is based more on Quimbanda and Qayin (Cain) as the Lord of Death. It still follows in that "Anti-Cosmic" tradition but is more focused on Death as a deity and not so much Chaos.

Liber Azerate is the earlier MLO formulation, while Sitra Achra is the later, much more developed Current 218 system. Falxifer is really more the Qayinite/Necrosophic Current 182 — Qayin, Death, Nod, etc. There’s Quimbanda influence, but I wouldn’t say it’s basically based on Quimbanda.

Most of the material is actually pretty widely available in PDF form now anyway. The author even said in a 2016 interview that, if one of his books was sold out, he’d rather students use a PDF than pay ridiculous second-hand prices.

Post automatically merged: Today at 9:05 AM

Potential does not exist in any way that's not order. Things need to be separated, excluded and restricted in order for any channels of action to exist.

Well, then there's some overarching order we don't perceive. This doesn't point towards any anticosmic ideas.

It certainly should not. I think the very idea, regardless of the packaging, is a very sad one. The fact that I notice it's easy to sell by certain means to certain personalities as uplifting or desirable doesn't do much to change that,

I think the main disagreement is that you’re treating Chaos as entropy, and I don’t think that’s what the 218 current means by it. Entropy is still a cosmic process: it happens in time, follows laws and presupposes differentiated things that can change state. In the anti-cosmic framework, Chaos is closer to the pre-cosmic or acausal condition from which differentiated existence emerges. Cosmos is what imposes form, causality and limitation upon that potential. So I completely agree that action requires distinction and order. But that only tells us what is required for manifestation within the Cosmos; it doesn’t establish that order is ontologically prior to the potential being manifested.

I also think there’s a deeper disagreement here about the Self. The goal in 218 isn’t really to preserve the conditioned individual at its “peak”. That individual is itself partly a product of cosmic limitation. This is one of the places where the current differs quite sharply from more self-deifying forms of the LHP.