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Working in a Grimorium Verum frame with one of the spirits under Satanachia (sealed clay doll-baby style poppet). Kept it soft so far, accepting the target feels some pressure until they reach out.
My concern is blowback on myself. I already open/close with LBRP + Star Ruby, keep Hekate as guardian, and put a non-return clause in the command ("no harm to me or mine, the fire does not return on me").
I want to add a dedicated protective effigy of MYSELF, a clay figure with my own concordance, sealed with protective material, consecrated as a guardian to absorb/deflect the rebound.
For those who've actually run harsh work:
1. What do you seal into a self-protection poppet : which psalms / names / seals actually hold against backlash? (thinking Ps 91, the divine names, Michael, a PGM phylactery)
2. Do you keep the guardian effigy separate from the working poppet, or is that superstition?
3. Reversal element a mirror/foil to send it back, or is grounding it to earth cleaner?
Not after morality takes just practical protection from experienced hands. Thanks to all
I don't know if you heard or read this somewhere or how you came to that idea, but I think creating a doll of yourself to act as a deflector sounds like an invitation for trouble. The tinfoil surrounding the target's doll does sound like a good idea though, so that all they can see is their own reflection, and anything they might want to send out is mirrored back.
First, rock on, Aglovol! I am honestly thrilled folks are checking the GV out.
Hmmmm. Let's just jump in. Just off the top of my head:
Let me say there are many avenues to approach the GV. I do recommend not trying to "fix" the grimoire just yet. You can personalize it later, once contact is made. (I should say this, but to be honest, I'm very loose. But I learned my lessons the hard way and have been told by them to tighten up a bit for the next stage of the work.)
The GV is a rite of contact. Once they have responded it is up to you carry on the relationship. You can call them for one-off workings, but the GV expects you to eventually form long-term allies. This look very "witchy" as they are then always around. Helping you, protecting you.
The GV has protection built into its formal protocols. You can simplify them, but that is asking for trouble. Lower daimons are not gods and they are not omniscient. The GV protocols (for the class of daimon that responds to it) are how they learn who their friends and allies are. And many of them can't read your mind, so it's best to speak commands clearly and out loud. Whatever their reality, I would not assume that they can read you mind , unless you are willing to invite them into your mind on a permanent basis. I do not enjoy that so I do not. I keep only one teaching ally who can speak in my head. But they all are allowed to communicate directly in the case of emergencies s or special time-sensitive opportinuites.
Can I ask what your internalized assumptions are? Since you have Hekate as an ally, then you are probably not working in a TradCath mythic framework. Check out Jake Stratton-Kent's 'Goetic Liturgy' and internalize Hecate as a "higher" manifestation of Astaroth. Jake Stratton-Kent's Thelemic Greco-Egyptian framework does work, and is currently very popular among the Anglophone GV guys that have sprung up recently. Good stuff.
The Catholic worldview of the GV is much closer to the Greek daimons than the Protestant demons. Your internal beliefs and expectations will greatly color how they appear to you. Even if you don't believe they are pagan gods (and I do not), taking on that viewpoint can temper them. Working TradCath is working "hot" - and save that for when you want to heat them up for an attack against a hard target. Heat is good, just work up to it.
Not sure how to say this, but please do try to relax. All this need for protection is a manifestation of fear. There is need for caution, but fear is not advisable. I don't want to make the argument they are totally safe, but please try to relax. Neoplatonism can help here, to see all things as an expression of the One.
You can keep up all the protections, but just interally"tweak" your framwork a little to see them better seen as protections against the "little bads" that live in the Underworld. Do watch out for them. The protections are more against the diablos / djabs / kiumbas than the GV daimons. Avoid anger which attracks them. (Or whatever is "actually" going on - as if we can ever know - for why that appears to be the case.)
From Julio: "Readings of Psalm 51 in its entirety on the hour of noon and midnight on all three days are advisable to eliminate the risk of interference from any minor spirits that may pass by the area."
Once you have a GV daimon ally, they will guard you as well. But this is a relationship that needs maintenance. Honestly, the daimons can ignore all protections, and nothing will stop them if you piss them off. Not ritual knives, circles, psalms, LBRPs, seriously.These are not little astral gremlins scared by puffs of light. But they are NOT evil. Don't give them a reason to be pissed and ALWAYS keep your word with them. I made that mistake early on and bear some serioous scars.
Pick up a pendulum to communicate withthem if you do not have in Vodu what is called konesans (connaissance) or psychic knowing. Modern occultist spend way WAY too much time and effrort in psychic trinting, , which is like doing cardio to prep for bodybuilding . Helps is measured doses, but is not really the show here. Be sure to negotatite. And when the deliver, you must do also. Keep your word.
The protocols of the GV have protection built into them. I didn't work with a circle after I have an ally, but it is part of the formal protoocls. After you have an ally you can include one to give yourself some psychic distance. Spend some time meditating on what a circle means as a Platonic form.
OK, the main issue, as far as i can tell, with the GV daimons (and the Lesser Key daimons, it seems):
There is an issue with the daimons acting as Orphic Neoplatonic Buddhas (in my view) and burning the Titanic "soot" off your soul. I have experienced it. JSK did. Matt Hadfield did. I think Rob Rider Hill did too. I wish he would pop in here and clarify what he meant about making it all 'less traumatic.'
If I was starting out I would 'cool' them down upfront as you get to know them and enage in interdimensional diplomancy. Give them spring water (which is underworld water) mixed with honey up front. When you want them to do work, heat them up by giving them alcohol, maybe coffee if your allies accept it. And then hange your 'stance' to be more aggressive, sharp, and staccato and less soothing and entreating.
Afterwards, take a cooling bath of the three Holy herbs of the GV. Take a cue from brujeria and add cucumber and chickweed. This about restoring energetic balance. Intense spiritual work can leave your energy "hot," agitated, and vulnerable.
Some others to try:
Chickweed / Cundeamor: This is a gentle but powerful plant valued for its cooling, soothing, and restorative qualities. It's a remedy when emotions or energy after a working leave you feeling off-balance, overheated, or tense.
Aloe Vera / Sabila, a classic cooling plant often used to soothe and calm. Its watery nature is soothing of irritated spiritual energy.
Lavender / Lavanda, to restore a sense of peace and balance after intense work.
It is my contention that most of the issues come from being out of balance. Take a spiritual bath. You will be glad you did.
Taking a clue from Vodou I THINK we can tell them to chill out a bit. Tell them verbally, not to touch... then name things you like, job, realtionships, parents, etc. Chrage them - verbally and firmly - to keep their claws off of them. But also, this IS apsital pracie int he end. Magic alwasy touches us and changes us. The Underrolds intelligences are justy a bit more dramatic about it.
Post automatically merged:
Oh. Spend time getting on the good side of the Three Chiefs. Offerings, etc. Avoid Beelzebuth until later. I also advise starting with a lower demon. who are plenty powerful. JSK recommended calling Elelogap first as a cleansing and cool water daimon. Everyone goes straight to Lucifer, but you will go further if you take advantage of the structure of the Infernal Hierarchy. Do not directly comjure the Three Chiefs, not at first. They are not "work spirits" (well, they can be, but not yet). They are for authority (permission) in calling the "lower" daimons.
For context: I'm working through one of the lesser officers under Satanachia specifically, not going near the Chiefs directly, good to hear that lines up with what you and JSK recommend.
The line that hit hardest: "the daimons can ignore all protections, nothing stops them if you anger them... always keep your word." That reframes the whole defensive setup for me, less "wall against the daimon" and more "filter against whatever else might be sniffing around while I work." Makes a lot more sense that way.
One thing I couldn't quite parse, you mention "the three sacred herbs of the GV" before listing chickweed/aloe/lavender as extras to add. What are those three base ones? Couldn't find that spelled out in my copy of the grimoire. Picking up lavender either way. Appreciate you taking the time to write all that out.
You got it going on, Agloval! Respect! Sounds like your intuition is on it.
The GV holy herbs are Mint (Spearmint, and not the other mints ), Rosemary, and Sweet Marjoram. I swear growing these turns you into a gardener.
Please pardon some personal gnosis :
I feel when we see what looks very pious to us in the grimoires, the turning to God (i.e. The Divine, the Numious) - it's not so much about commanding, they seem to get something from it. Some coolness / blessing, grace. Maybe I internalized Hermeticism and Catholic Marian Mysticism too much, but when they see a divinized human, they see the Transcendent Reality through us. We seem to be able to channel dimensions hidden from them.
But that may also be me being very Pro Team Human. The pure animst view of finding "right relation" also works here, but I also feel we humans are the fulcrum of reality. In Vodou it is said we are given none of the power but all the authority. (All power comes from God in their mythic framework, and all spirits bow before God.) And perhaps that authority is often one more of love than power and anger, I have found. Took a while for me to see this. Whatever the ultimate nature of The Mystery, I have not had any issues since I came to see things more this way. But i also keep my word and don't act like a tourist.
You got it going on, Agloval! Respect! Sounds like your intuition is on it.
The GV holy herbs are Mint (Spearmint, and not the other mints ), Rosemary, and Sweet Marjoram. I swear growing these turns you into a gardener.
Please pardon some personal gnosis :
I feel when we see what looks very pious to us in the grimoires, the turning to God (i.e. The Divine, the Numious) - it's not so much about commanding, they seem to get something from it. Some coolness / blessing, grace. Maybe I internalized Hermeticism and Catholic Marian Mysticism too much, but when they see a divinized human, they see the Transcendent Reality through us. We seem to be able to channel dimensions hidden from them.
But that may also be me being very Pro Team Human. The pure animst view of finding "right relation" also works here, but I also feel we humans are the fulcrum ofYou reality. In Vodou it is said we are given none of the power but all the authority. (All power comes from God in their mythic framework, and all spirits bow before God.) And perhaps that authority is often one more of love than power and anger, I have found. Took a while for me to see this. Whatever the ultimate nature of The Mystery, I have not had any issues since I came to see things more this way. But i also keep my word and don't act like a tourist.
Darn it! I had hoped I could just drop , in full, the "Neoplatonic / Orphic Wrathful Buddhas" and nobody would ever ask. I never want to take away people's own discovery and explorations. This is my shorthand for part of what they do.
OK, this is following wordy mess is my attempt to find a way to describe what they seem to do on a spiritual level. This is only one of their aspects and it took me a long time to see it. Other aspects of theirs very much maps to Hellenic underworld sublunar daimons who grant wishes. Why? I have no idea except that they too have sublunar bodies and have ' mixed' natures, like all things in the tempestuous astral flux. (And also why you can help them have cooler / calmer bodies by what you give them to stabilize their form around)
So yes, the GV daimons can be used for sorcery, which is what I did for many years. I did not know the daimons have a spiritual dimension until many years later, seeing how I'd changed for the better.
OK, to describe that spiritual effect, I'm drawing on the combined lenses of Neoplatonism, Orphic myth, Vajrayana Buddhism, and 15th-century Catholic theology. The demonolatry folks call this spiritual aspect "a Tower Moment" (for the tarot card), and for me the effect it seems similar to the effect you get from the Headless Rite, which functions as an exorcism ritual. In each case the fierce beings called are soteriological - they are an instrument of deliverance, operating within a specific theological economy of salvation or liberation.
Again, this is my best attempt to map my experiences and those of others - not to build a new religion, not to claim historical accuracy, but simply to give language to something that happens, to me, to others.
In the Orphic tradition, this "Titanic soot" is the ashen residue of the primordial dismemberment left over from when the Titans tore apart Dionysus Zagreus, consumed his flesh, and were summarily annihilated by the thunderbolt from Papa Zeus. Humanity was born from their smoldering remains, so we carry within us both a divine fragment — the undying spark of Dionysus (or Christ / Logos, in another mythic framework) - and a heavy, obscuring crust or soot of Titanic materiality ("Original Sin" in Catholic spirituality). This "soot" is the sediment of aeons composed of raw instinct, unexamined pride, and accumulated trauma, and it always pulls us back into the primordial soup of unconsciousness and dissolving us into unthinking, bestial and reactive impulses.
If we look at this through the Vajrayana lens, this soot / sin corresponds directly to karmic obscurations and the five poisons - attachment, aversion, delusion, pride, and envy. The Dionysian / Christic spark, by contrast, is the Tathagatagarbha, the indestructible Buddha-nature, which in Western terms is the Imago Dei, the image of God in our soul. The soot is accidental to one's true nature, an accretion, not essence.
I see the Orphic Dionysus as a refigurative type of Christ. The Titans tearing Dionysus apart translates directly to the Passion of Christ - the soldiers tearing His flesh, the breaking of His body on the Cross. The "Soot" is not just your sin, it's your participation in the primordial betrayal. You are also the Titan who consumed the divine flesh.
This brings us to the Grimorium Verum daimons, which we can see as Wrathful Herukas and a manifestation (in part) of the Thunderbolt of Zeus / God. (FYI, Herukas are fully enlightened Buddhas. They are not demigods, angels, or intermediate beings. They are Buddhas - fully awakened ones - who choose to manifest in wrathful form for specific compassionate purposes.) Remember the daimons are also are more than this, so this is just part of the package deal.
The daimons of the GV don't conform at all to the medieval Christian narrative of petty, malicious spirits. They are best understood, I feel, not as devils but as intermediate hypostases- precisely as Iamblichus and the Chaldean Oracles describe them: shards of the Divine Intellect (Nous) dispatched downward to shatter "crust" or burn off the hardened "soot" of our soul. (This is also not to erase pure animist nature-based models, but to extend them to the real of consiouness, but without 20th century psychology.)
I like calling them Neoplatonic - Orphic Wrathful Buddhas, it softens the Catholic language , which is usually not done justice in modern occulture for it's mystical sophistication.
For those operating within the Western current we can translate the theological language of the culture that produced the Grimorium Verum, the Hellenic-influenced Catholicism of 14th- to 16th-century Italy. Using a Catholic Hermeneutic they 'are' (or can usefully be thought of) the Angels of Penitence and the Fire of Purgatory. (Again they are also sublunar being so have "mixed natures" like all of us. They are just good at seeing who we are in our soul, under our egoic shells. I think they benefit from buvring it off and having a newly minted divinitized human friend, but that is my personal gnosis. And to be clear you still have more growing, integration , and some work to do after they clear the soot from your eyes. The Underworld Inititation just means a begininng, here. It took me a few years after mine. )
OK, a GV daimon is not a fallen angel or hellspawn. The GV was born in Late Medieval / Early Modern and very Hellenic Catholic frame, I think they (or some?) can be mapped to a "lower "manifestation as an Angel of Penitence, a Virtus Ignis Divini (Power of Divine Fire), permitted by God to act as a scorching minister of purification. This is the same order of being as the Angel who wrestled Jacob at Peniel, dislocating his thigh and als blessing him with a new nature and a transformed identity. We might think of that angel as a Wrathful Buddha of the Old Covenant.
In Catholic theology of this period (Aquinas, Cajetan, Bellarmine), the "soot" is not a metaphor, it is the Fomes Peccati (the kindling or fuel of sin) - the disordered concupiscence (as disordered desire, inordinate appetite, and unruly passions - the main no-nos of Catholicism and Buddhism alike.) but here, in this mythic framework, it "is" the left overs from Original Sin. Furthermore, it is the Macula (the stain) that obscures the Imago Dei (Image of God) in the soul.
The purifying fire corresponds to the Active Grace of the Holy Ghost in the form the Pentecostal fire. Saint Thomas Aquinas designates the Holy Spirit as the Ignis Divinu, a fire that gently warms the humble but burns the proud. Believe me, I was that proud. Again this is not to say they are they same. The daimon serves as the proximate instrument, the Holy Ghost remains the Primary Agent.
In this interpretation I'm drawing on Saint Catherine of Genoa the 15th-century Italian mystic who taught that the fire of Purgatory is nothing other than the love of God, so intensely loving that it incinerates everything in the soul that is not God.
To be clear, they will still do all the sorcerous things like destroy your enemies, but you then just might grow out of it. Such evocations then work as an invitation for the fire of Purgatory to operate within your own very temporal life. (Rather like the classic vampire they have to be invited in, heh! ) You are taking an Underworld journey here, with the GV . It all just goes with the territory, and the Catholic and Orphic ideas work very well as a conceptual handles for the practice, and to be aware of what you are getting into.
----------------------
OK, I know this will sound crazy. You might just be "taken" , healed and given weird powers. I keep meaning to write about this, but it makes me look insane , on drugs, or I like am lying. But also note I also never plan to sell books and occult courses, so nobody is being herded. I just hope to encourage others to take up the GV as a practice.
One of the weird thing they might give you is Discernment of Spirits and Perceptual Acuity (the "Vajra Eye") - a heightened sensitivity to the "density" of persons in space-time. You can see where an individual carries ancestral or karmic weight, and discern how their soul wrestles with it's moral choices. And you can see which course of action they will take, even while you'd hope they take the better path.
This was handy when I was working at one of the largest and most famous tech companies in the world, when I could see what people would do when they wrestled with the Angel of their Better Nature (not literally here) or if they even did at all, or if they we're thoroughly vile and evil. That was very weird at first, but strategially handy when surrounded by psychopaths.
You also become very calm. Crises no longer trigger a reflexive fight-or-flight response very much. You become calm and compassionate.
There is also a third effect that surprised me: a loss of the fear of death. It was just... gone.
-------------
Gah! That is all a bit heavy-handed. The problem with articulating all this is it gets tuned up to 11 in people's brains. Remember, they are still sublunar beings... and are of mixed natures. They will still do all the magic and sorcerous things. They'll make you a better person along the way, I have found.
Darn it! I had hoped I could just drop , in full, the "Neoplatonic / Orphic Wrathful Buddhas" and nobody would ever ask. I never want to take away people's own discovery and explorations. This is my shorthand for part of what they do.
OK, this is following wordy mess is my attempt to find a way to describe what they seem to do on a spiritual level. This is only one of their aspects and it took me a long time to see it. Other aspects of theirs very much maps to Hellenic underworld sublunar daimons who grant wishes. Why? I have no idea except that they too have sublunar bodies and have ' mixed' natures, like all things in the tempestuous astral flux. (And also why you can help them have cooler / calmer bodies by what you give them to stabilize their form around)
So yes, the GV daimons can be used for sorcery, which is what I did for many years. I did not know the daimons have a spiritual dimension until many years later, seeing how I'd changed for the better.
OK, to describe that spiritual effect, I'm drawing on the combined lenses of Neoplatonism, Orphic myth, Vajrayana Buddhism, and 15th-century Catholic theology. The demonolatry folks call this spiritual aspect "a Tower Moment" (for the tarot card), and for me the effect it seems similar to the effect you get from the Headless Rite, which functions as an exorcism ritual. In each case the fierce beings called are soteriological - they are an instrument of deliverance, operating within a specific theological economy of salvation or liberation.
Again, this is my best attempt to map my experiences and those of others - not to build a new religion, not to claim historical accuracy, but simply to give language to something that happens, to me, to others.
In the Orphic tradition, this "Titanic soot" is the ashen residue of the primordial dismemberment left over from when the Titans tore apart Dionysus Zagreus, consumed his flesh, and were summarily annihilated by the thunderbolt from Papa Zeus. Humanity was born from their smoldering remains, so we carry within us both a divine fragment — the undying spark of Dionysus (or Christ / Logos, in another mythic framework) - and a heavy, obscuring crust or soot of Titanic materiality ("Original Sin" in Catholic spirituality). This "soot" is the sediment of aeons composed of raw instinct, unexamined pride, and accumulated trauma, and it always pulls us back into the primordial soup of unconsciousness and dissolving us into unthinking, bestial and reactive impulses.
If we look at this through the Vajrayana lens, this soot / sin corresponds directly to karmic obscurations and the five poisons - attachment, aversion, delusion, pride, and envy. The Dionysian / Christic spark, by contrast, is the Tathagatagarbha, the indestructible Buddha-nature, which in Western terms is the Imago Dei, the image of God in our soul. The soot is accidental to one's true nature, an accretion, not essence.
I see the Orphic Dionysus as a refigurative type of Christ. The Titans tearing Dionysus apart translates directly to the Passion of Christ - the soldiers tearing His flesh, the breaking of His body on the Cross. The "Soot" is not just your sin, it's your participation in the primordial betrayal. You are also the Titan who consumed the divine flesh.
This brings us to the Grimorium Verum daimons, which we can see as Wrathful Herukas and a manifestation (in part) of the Thunderbolt of Zeus / God. (FYI, Herukas are fully enlightened Buddhas. They are not demigods, angels, or intermediate beings. They are Buddhas - fully awakened ones - who choose to manifest in wrathful form for specific compassionate purposes.) Remember the daimons are also are more than this, so this is just part of the package deal.
The daimons of the GV don't conform at all to the medieval Christian narrative of petty, malicious spirits. They are best understood, I feel, not as devils but as intermediate hypostases- precisely as Iamblichus and the Chaldean Oracles describe them: shards of the Divine Intellect (Nous) dispatched downward to shatter "crust" or burn off the hardened "soot" of our soul. (This is also not to erase pure animist nature-based models, but to extend them to the real of consiouness, but without 20th century psychology.)
I like calling them Neoplatonic - Orphic Wrathful Buddhas, it softens the Catholic language , which is usually not done justice in modern occulture for it's mystical sophistication.
For those operating within the Western current we can translate the theological language of the culture that produced the Grimorium Verum, the Hellenic-influenced Catholicism of 14th- to 16th-century Italy. Using a Catholic Hermeneutic they 'are' (or can usefully be thought of) the Angels of Penitence and the Fire of Purgatory. (Again they are also sublunar being so have "mixed natures" like all of us. They are just good at seeing who we are in our soul, under our egoic shells. I think they benefit from buvring it off and having a newly minted divinitized human friend, but that is my personal gnosis. And to be clear you still have more growing, integration , and some work to do after they clear the soot from your eyes. The Underworld Inititation just means a begininng, here. It took me a few years after mine. )
OK, a GV daimon is not a fallen angel or hellspawn. The GV was born in Late Medieval / Early Modern and very Hellenic Catholic frame, I think they (or some?) can be mapped to a "lower "manifestation as an Angel of Penitence, a Virtus Ignis Divini (Power of Divine Fire), permitted by God to act as a scorching minister of purification. This is the same order of being as the Angel who wrestled Jacob at Peniel, dislocating his thigh and als blessing him with a new nature and a transformed identity. We might think of that angel as a Wrathful Buddha of the Old Covenant.
In Catholic theology of this period (Aquinas, Cajetan, Bellarmine), the "soot" is not a metaphor, it is the Fomes Peccati (the kindling or fuel of sin) - the disordered concupiscence (as disordered desire, inordinate appetite, and unruly passions - the main no-nos of Catholicism and Buddhism alike.) but here, in this mythic framework, it "is" the left overs from Original Sin. Furthermore, it is the Macula (the stain) that obscures the Imago Dei (Image of God) in the soul.
The purifying fire corresponds to the Active Grace of the Holy Ghost in the form the Pentecostal fire. Saint Thomas Aquinas designates the Holy Spirit as the Ignis Divinu, a fire that gently warms the humble but burns the proud. Believe me, I was that proud. Again this is not to say they are they same. The daimon serves as the proximate instrument, the Holy Ghost remains the Primary Agent.
In this interpretation I'm drawing on Saint Catherine of Genoa the 15th-century Italian mystic who taught that the fire of Purgatory is nothing other than the love of God, so intensely loving that it incinerates everything in the soul that is not God.
To be clear, they will still do all the sorcerous things like destroy your enemies, but you then just might grow out of it. Such evocations then work as an invitation for the fire of Purgatory to operate within your own very temporal life. (Rather like the classic vampire they have to be invited in, heh! ) You are taking an Underworld journey here, with the GV . It all just goes with the territory, and the Catholic and Orphic ideas work very well as a conceptual handles for the practice, and to be aware of what you are getting into.
----------------------
OK, I know this will sound crazy. You might just be "taken" , healed and given weird powers. I keep meaning to write about this, but it makes me look insane , on drugs, or I like am lying. But also note I also never plan to sell books and occult courses, so nobody is being herded. I just hope to encourage others to take up the GV as a practice.
One of the weird thing they might give you is Discernment of Spirits and Perceptual Acuity (the "Vajra Eye") - a heightened sensitivity to the "density" of persons in space-time. You can see where an individual carries ancestral or karmic weight, and discern how their soul wrestles with it's moral choices. And you can see which course of action they will take, even while you'd hope they take the better path.
This was handy when I was working at one of the largest and most famous tech companies in the world, when I could see what people would do when they wrestled with the Angel of their Better Nature (not literally here) or if they even did at all, or if they we're thoroughly vile and evil. That was very weird at first, but strategially handy when surrounded by psychopaths.
You also become very calm. Crises no longer trigger a reflexive fight-or-flight response very much. You become calm and compassionate.
There is also a third effect that surprised me: a loss of the fear of death. It was just... gone.
-------------
Gah! That is all a bit heavy-handed. The problem with articulating all this is it gets tuned up to 11 in people's brains. Remember, they are still sublunar beings... and are of mixed natures. They will still do all the magic and sorcerous things. They'll make you a better person along the way, I have found.
What a fantastic post, I'm nearly speechless. Very beautifully put. It's remarkably close to my own experience in starting and deepening goetic work over the last few years. I've studied and practiced evocation, meditation, and yoga since 2021 and the positive changes in my character and disposition towards life have been remarkable. I also hold a synthetic Orphic/Christian view that grew out of my Luciferian Gnosticism. Dionysos is very much my preferred Christ-figure. I've noted the Tantric connection before as well. The daemons carry a refining fire that burns away my dross.
It's tragic that the treasures of Christian mysticism are so often rejected by modern occulture, as understandable as aversion to Christianity has become.
Thank you very much for sharing! What you have written has reverberated deep in my bones and soul.
Soror Epihania, you are most welcome! I'm just tickled pink becasue I never know how those will go over.
I do not like to sound like I'm erasing anyone mythic journey. All this stuff is so fraught to talk about. Talking is like catnip for our left-hemisphere, thinky-think, compu-bot brain, which just makes it so much harder for folks to be mystics.
I was raised very secular. When I started in esotercism I was and still am pretty Luciferian, but I see 'him' as a lower manifestation of the Solar Demiurge. He also appears as other solar spirits and daimon outside the strict Luciferian corpus of typical mythic imagery.
Although I am more a 'small t' Thelemite, I credit the mystical language of the Book of the Law for triggering visions that put me in a joyous ecstatic state for three days. Liber AL gave me an ecstatic vision where I saw everything as an expression of the Mystery in local mythic languages. Or so it seemed to. Not saying it is literally true intellectually. Again, I have a secular- Agnostic intellectual brain with a mystic's heart. And mystics all only speak one language, in many dialects.
The Goddess as Sophia / Mary / Nuit (yes, I know that is a lot) is relatively recent for me. After my houngan passed away, I would daily say the Catholic prayers for him for a couple of years out of friendship and gratitude. Then one day she came, as an 'apparition ' of the Virgin. And I was not really a believer, per se. She appears bringing this indescribable feeling grace, beauty, sweetness along with the odor of citrus and roses my girlfriend can also notice and enjoy. I think none of that would have been possible without the changes the GV spirits brought to me, but I can't say for sure.
I mention Her here because she seems to have real dominion over the daimons as Queen of Heaven (and in her aspect as Empress of Hell). It seems to be out of love they have for her (and well, becasue She is indeed amazing) , but again that is personal gnosis. Just mentioning She might also provide any needed protection for people who might like a softer touch.
GV magican Simon Dyda has a "sonic circle "invoking her in his book Ars Rosaria:
Yes, yes, yes! Goddess devotion has been a cornerstone of my practice starting with offerings and prayers to Lilith during a period of deep despair. Through her I slithered my way to Sophianic epiphanies that fell very much in line with certain Trad Craft traditions around the Black/White Goddess. My study and intuitive sense tell me Inanna is a major fountainhead of this Venusian Queen of Heaven power that does hold influence over diverse hierarchies of spirits and the process of human spiritual development, though that's definitely starting down a rabbit hole that's off-topic for this thread. Long-story short I once conjured her in a room filled with incense, perfumed oil, and rose petals and she cracked my heart open in a flood of grace and bliss. Calling forth a blessedly fiery light out of my heart is about as easy as breathing most days and the daemons do seem to like it, so I think you're onto something.
I was raised Fundamentalist Christian and managed to break out of it largely through applying reason to what the church was telling me and realizing not much of made since. It's been a challenge reengaging in spiritual work after all the effort it took to deconstruct the soul-deadening errors of modern American Christianity. Typing any of this out without the little analytical voice in my mind trying to poke holes in anything is still a challenge at times.
@agloval If you're performing GV work under the auspices of Hekate you may want to call on her epithets of Apotropaia (Averter of Harm) or Soteira (Savior) for extra protection from negative effects of the work. Kratais (Powerful/Strong One) is another you can call on for a more muscular approach.
That was my trajectory. I'm not surprised others have made similar journeys. Hekate encompasses both radiant wisdom goddess and dread queen of the dead so it makes sense. She is both bearer of pneumatic fire that exalts the soul and bloodthirsty devourer of flesh.
I'm still not clear on the exact nature of the Lilith-Sophia link. I suspect it's something with the Shekhinah or Sophia Achamoth.
@agloval
I would suggest that the best way to prevent blowback from your work would be making yourself absolutely clear with your intentions. Not only should you present your intentions as clearly as possible to the spirits(including your restrictions), but you should be entirely sure you want what you're asking for. Divination is always the best first step imo. It's been my experience that most unexpected consequences could have been avoided by putting a little more thought into the intentions themselves, rather than any sort of protection I could have done. This isn't Verum specific advice, just general.
@MorganBlack
Your posts always provide a wealth of inspiration and food for thought, and they are greatly appreciated. I always notice many parallels between your understanding and experiences and my own, as a secular-agnostic-mystic myself who's worldview is rooted in pan(en)theistic daoism. I'm learning more and more that neoplatonism and daoism have a lot in common, it's just not something I've studied very much. It's been my experience that a lot of the problems people run into when arguing for one belief system over another come down to semantics, not the actual understanding of the mysteries themselves, which in many cases can be observed universally and reconciled, at least as far as one person's UPG goes.
I've also recognized this Wrathful Buddha aspect of a lot of spirits I've worked with, including angels, dieties, and demons. There are certain angels in particular who almost always give people a hard time by scraping off the spiritual soot before moving forward with what they asked for, and often times those desires change by the end of it. And all of us have our own experiences of this; one of my more noteable ones occured as a gradual change in outlook, but I've seen others have their lives turned completely upside-down by the same spirit, both leading to roughly the same place. I would say that it's a key compontent to working with spirits in general, which is often overlooked in favor of treating them all as wish-granting genies. I suppose the opposite is also true as well, with people worshipping and treating individual spirits as their sole route to spiritual progress. I don't have much to add, other than to applaud your very well thought out mythic interpretation of all this, it provides a lot to think about.
It's been a long time since I actively worked with demons, and my experiences are rooted in the Lesser Key and my own derivitave and simplified forms. I was never really drawn to work with the Verum until recently, and the pull towards this system has continued to grow stronger. I have every intention of starting to work with the GV in the near future, and have found your insights accross the forum to be invaluable and very inspirational.
Small continuation off topic, I also share in this Queen of Heaven/Hell UPG and find her to be extremely powerful and important to the work. I've always identified Astaroth as a component of this archetype. In trying to make sense of the GV system within my own cosmology, it helps me to consider the Holy Trinity and Infernal Triad as being celestial/chthonic mirrors or counterparts. That said, I've always been one to caution against pigeonholing spirits in practice, especially on first contact. I always recommend approaching a system in practice with as few preconceptions as possible, and will try to follow the same advice with my approach. I once posted somewhere that if you summon Astaroth you should speak to Astaroth, not to Ishtar, even when they tell you they're the same. Also worth mentioning, during a time I when I was doing a lot of work with Ishtar/Inanna, I would see Lilith everywhere.. she was being brought up constantly, randomly, I was meeting her in dreams. And this was before I ever really read anything about her. Later, this transitioned to Hekate appearing everywhere, and most recently it's been Sophia. While I have never formally worked with these faces of the goddess it seems clear to me I'm being compelled to, and have been in one way or another for basically my whole occult journey. Life is a very interesting ride. (I've also experienced a phantom scent of roses which I associate with her)
@agloval
I would suggest that the best way to prevent blowback from your work would be making yourself absolutely clear with your intentions. Not only should you present your intentions as clearly as possible to the spirits(including your restrictions), but you should be entirely sure you want what you're asking for. Divination is always the best first step imo. It's been my experience that most unexpected consequences could have been avoided by putting a little more thought into the intentions themselves, rather than any sort of protection I could have done. This isn't Verum specific advice, just general.
@MorganBlack
Your posts always provide a wealth of inspiration and food for thought, and they are greatly appreciated. I always notice many parallels between your understanding and experiences and my own, as a secular-agnostic-mystic myself who's worldview is rooted in pan(en)theistic daoism. I'm learning more and more that neoplatonism and daoism have a lot in common, it's just not something I've studied very much. It's been my experience that a lot of the problems people run into when arguing for one belief system over another come down to semantics, not the actual understanding of the mysteries themselves, which in many cases can be observed universally and reconciled, at least as far as one person's UPG goes.
I've also recognized this Wrathful Buddha aspect of a lot of spirits I've worked with, including angels, dieties, and demons. There are certain angels in particular who almost always give people a hard time by scraping off the spiritual soot before moving forward with what they asked for, and often times those desires change by the end of it. And all of us have our own experiences of this; one of my more noteable ones occured as a gradual change in outlook, but I've seen others have their lives turned completely upside-down by the same spirit, both leading to roughly the same place. I would say that it's a key compontent to working with spirits in general, which is often overlooked in favor of treating them all as wish-granting genies. I suppose the opposite is also true as well, with people worshipping and treating individual spirits as their sole route to spiritual progress. I don't have much to add, other than to applaud your very well thought out mythic interpretation of all this, it provides a lot to think about.
It's been a long time since I actively worked with demons, and my experiences are rooted in the Lesser Key and my own derivitave and simplified forms. I was never really drawn to work with the Verum until recently, and the pull towards this system has continued to grow stronger. I have every intention of starting to work with the GV in the near future, and have found your insights accross the forum to be invaluable and very inspirational.
Small continuation off topic, I also share in this Queen of Heaven/Hell UPG and find her to be extremely powerful and important to the work. I've always identified Astaroth as a component of this archetype. In trying to make sense of the GV system within my own cosmology, it helps me to consider the Holy Trinity and Infernal Triad as being celestial/chthonic mirrors or counterparts. That said, I've always been one to caution against pigeonholing spirits in practice, especially on first contact. I always recommend approaching a system in practice with as few preconceptions as possible, and will try to follow the same advice with my approach. I once posted somewhere that if you summon Astaroth you should speak to Astaroth, not to Ishtar, even when they tell you they're the same. Also worth mentioning, during a time I when I was doing a lot of work with Ishtar/Inanna, I would see Lilith everywhere.. she was being brought up constantly, randomly, I was meeting her in dreams. And this was before I ever really read anything about her. Later, this transitioned to Hekate appearing everywhere, and most recently it's been Sophia. While I have never formally worked with these faces of the goddess it seems clear to me I'm being compelled to, and have been in one way or another for basically my whole occult journey. Life is a very interesting ride. (I've also experienced a phantom scent of roses which I associate with her)
Yeah, you're right, I should probably use divination more. I'm not particularly good at it and, honestly, most of the time I just go ahead and do the working lol. I usually have a pretty clear idea of what I want to do and I spend a lot of time thinking through the restrictions and making sure everything is clearly defined, but I rarely stop to actually divine beforehand.
And yeah, MorganBlack is one of those people whose posts are always a pleasure to read. There's pretty much always something interesting in them that makes me think, even when I don't necessarily agree with everything.
Soror Epiphania, Ewiz, Agloval, you guys truly make my heartvery full. Thank you all so, so much!! * swoon *
Agloval, if you agreed with me 100%, I think that would upset me the most, because I would feel I was erasing your own lived experiences. I would then question what I as even doing here!
I try to step gently, while also holding my ground for people who want to erase my experiences and viewpoints. Their zero-sum theological games are not fun for me, and I consider them a waste of time. I work to ground my practice in historical Western philosophy, magic, and theology to give me a language to talk about it, and air-gap it from my ego a bit with historical criteria. (Not to be limited by them, btw. Our ancestors were not perfect either, and I think the Neoplatonists I adore would glom onto Katrupian Idealism pretty quockly,once they got the modern lingo.)
And that habit of calling other people's lived mystical and evocation experiences "UPG" - that honestly really bothers me. "Unverified?" Against WHAT, exactly, oh wise an all-knowing sage or witch? Nobody knows 100% for sure. The Mystery goes by many names, in many cultures, I feel, and to "explain" it down to 3 micrometers rather misses the point of a mystical practice. The bankers of the Catholic Church bureaucracy had a hard time with their own mystics, and most people today , even those in occulture, are really not that different.
I am still figuring out how to talk about all this when things that look like religion come up. To find a way to talk about what we're doing while not flattening everybody into bland Anglo-Universalism - which is my own starter native framework, btw. I was raised Unitarian Universalist - or Totalizing Cosmic Catholicism. Personally, I do think The Mystery communicates with us and shows us what we need to see. I can back this up from the Catholic mystical tradition, but then it seems like I am trying to recruit.
In the "Grim Verum Game Server" we broadly have two friendly and mutually supportive camps - one is the JSK Thelemic group and then the more Catholic crowd. But it is a continuum. Nobody is attacking anyone, and we recongize we overlap a whole bunch , which I find very refreshing.
I feel you on wanting to speak to the mysteries without collapsing distinction. I'm also from a very Anglo-protestant background and it's taken a lot of both learning about the world and unlearning some of the errors my parents and churches instilled in me (as their parents and churches instilled in them) to come to a place of wiser relating to the Earth and its peoples. Decolonization (the real shit, not the empty buzzword sjws use to virtue signal) has been an overarching consideration of mine as I've attempted to build a practice that honors land and ancestry. A part of that is recognizing the unity behind the masks without letting it devour multiplicity or drown out the voice of the Other. It's a tricky balance, I adore Spare, Chumbley, and have an appreciation for Crowley but also recognize they reify a lot of the mistakes of the Anglo mindset that have caused 'Western Civilization' to get so off course.
A core part of what brought me to the Verum is the desire to reach back into history and retrieve what elements of tradition and lineage I can to restore Soul to myself and the world. Finding what's good, vital, and true and leaving the mistakes of my ancestors to be burned away as an offering to the spirits. I seek to foster connections between myself and other humans while reaching into the Unseen for its medicine and wider perspective. I'm doing my very best to build something for those who come after me and discussions like this leave me with a confidence that I'm not alone in the struggle.
Soror Epiphania, Ewiz, Agloval, you guys truly make my heartvery full. Thank you all so, so much!! * swoon *
Agloval, if you agreed with me 100%, I think that would upset me the most, because I would feel I was erasing your own lived experiences. I would then question what I as even doing here!
I try to step gently, while also holding my ground for people who want to erase my experiences and viewpoints. Their zero-sum theological games are not fun for me, and I consider them a waste of time. I work to ground my practice in historical Western philosophy, magic, and theology to give me a language to talk about it, and air-gap it from my ego a bit with historical criteria. (Not to be limited by them, btw. Our ancestors were not perfect either, and I think the Neoplatonists I adore would glom onto Katrupian Idealism pretty quockly,once they got the modern lingo.)
And that habit of calling other people's lived mystical and evocation experiences "UPG" - that honestly really bothers me. "Unverified?" Against WHAT, exactly, oh wise an all-knowing sage or witch? Nobody knows 100% for sure. The Mystery goes by many names, in many cultures, I feel, and to "explain" it down to 3 micrometers rather misses the point of a mystical practice. The bankers of the Catholic Church bureaucracy had a hard time with their own mystics, and most people today , even those in occulture, are really not that different.
I am still figuring out how to talk about all this when things that look like religion come up. To find a way to talk about what we're doing while not flattening everybody into bland Anglo-Universalism - which is my own starter native framework, btw. I was raised Unitarian Universalist - or Totalizing Cosmic Catholicism. Personally, I do think The Mystery communicates with us and shows us what we need to see. I can back this up from the Catholic mystical tradition, but then it seems like I am trying to recruit.
In the "Grim Verum Game Server" we broadly have two friendly and mutually supportive camps - one is the JSK Thelemic group and then the more Catholic crowd. But it is a continuum. Nobody is attacking anyone, and we recongize we overlap a whole bunch , which I find very refreshing.
I understand the gripe with "UPG," especially when people do use it to undermine people's experiences. I'm used to using the term to simply imply subjective experience, and the unverified part isn't against some standard it's against other people's experiences. So I might preface my statement that Astaroth and a bunch of female spirits are sorta the same, by saying it's my UPG(subjective.) This might help prevent a reader from taking that statement as a matter-of -fact and trying to summon Astaroth and expecting Aphodite, and having a bad time. I'm most familiar with it being used so people are aware they're talking about their mystical experiences, not their physical actions and methods. It'll likely happen again anyways, and I'm never trying to say something like oh thats just your UPG your experience isn't valid etc.
I swear this could be a new thread, like "Personal Gnosis : Actually the Point Here." even while the term itself it still very Chaos Magicy (which I love btw, so no slam)
Right Right! I stopped using the term 'UPG' and deliberately began using 'personal gnosis - but I'm also pretty fine with 'visions' or even the Church's 'apparition.' which is actually a positive. The Church was actually pretty forward thinking here, and can accept an 'Apparition' as both genuine but also that it on;y relvant to the people who engage. They do not feel they have to modify the Magisterium (the core statements of faith of the Church as an insitiution.) in reponse to anyone's personal gnosis. And this includes the big and famous manifestions of the Virgin, like at Lourdes or Fatima.
I honestly feel, that on a personal level, visions and personal gnosis are some of the most important things. I was talking about them a bit below when I using Gilberto Strapazon's Shem rite here:
It was a new pratice to me, so I was being personally cautious about ascribing "truth" to my visions. Gilberto has more religiously Catholic brain than i, and took it as me questioning him, which I was not doing. I was just keeping my still-very-secular brain humble. It likes to think all sorts of things.
So using his rite, for a while at first I concerned my brain was just giving me some stereotypical and pedantic hallucinations, and not genuine contact. Not like I would have known. It was a pretty "light" feeling with not much of hitting me in my feelings and body, which typically I get from the Apparition of the Virgin, or the daimons standing in front of me.
But it still worked, and worked very well. Slowly, but my friend I was helping wnile trying ther ite out, slowly felt better and their circumstances at their work improved dramatically over 3 or 6 months. I think there were stages as they first grew into the person who could take on expanded responsibility, when before they were feeling marginalized and pushed aside. Now they are taking on leadership roles. That is very confirming atlease something is going on, and work experimenting with more
At least for me, how I approach this is the visions and body feelings are when it "comes alive" and then I feel "in my guty"as it were I have genuine contact (or have entered that Universe, or linked up my brain, or whowever people want to think of it) .
Unlike the GV, this is not like having a solid entity in front of me, or the profoundly beautiful mystical experiences with the Virgin (which is when the Catholic universe came alive, or I entered the Catholic universe and could call upon it more... or whatever is going on).
I was just a sorcerer for many, many years, and while I appreciated Hermeticism, Thelema, and philosophy, it was all a very intellectual exercise. Nothing was "alive" ... the GV evocations yes,but not much else.... until it became all very real. I sometime half-joke beware the stories and symbols you enage with, they can come very alive and your life will mirror them in very deep ways.
I'm an Accidental and Ironic Catholic (I joke) becaue of just robotically saying the prayers for my deceased hougan for a couple of years outt of respect, until one day the Appratition appeared, I feel deeply and hed first in love, and that was that. Ah well. As the saying goes, 'You dance with the one who brung ya.'
I am ecumenical enough to say if someone has the same deep mystical experience with, say, Freya and she shows up and spreads joy and beauty, and, oh I don't know, the smell of fir trees, and then all the elves and gnomes suddenly bow down and are good-natured , then it's really not my job to say otherwise. I ain't the Myth Police.
