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The best path or resource for someone nowhere near a lodge

Diluculo_DelFuego

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Is there a reliable system out there?
Must I recreate the way of Levi Agrippa or Barrett (or many of the millions of unknown magicians out there that got somewhere with their work)?
Or is it simply all chemistry, along the likes of the Paracelcus Research Center of Frater Albertus in Salt Lake City?
Does that then mean alchemists across the world are pretty mush SOOL?
If freemasonry and the Golden Dawn cannot actually self initiaitate, am I just wasting my time?
Is there a resource for the loner?

Sorry for the batch of questions, just want to get somewhere with all of this, in an environment where occult activity is no bueno?
 

Lemongrass00

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I said it once and I'll say it again.
"If anyone's interested in Solomonic Magick I'd strongly suggest looking into the O.T.A.
the Ordo Templi Astarte (Order of Templars of Astarte. The O.T.A. was founded by American magician Carroll “Poke” Runyon in 1970. Runyon received an irregular
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
charter from Louis Culling in that year, but quickly moved away from OTO traditions to construct an eclectic magical system of his own, based on the eighteenth-century ritual system of the Crata Repoa, the teachings of the
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, the gods and goddesses of the ancient Phoenicians, and his own discoveries in the field of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of spirits through mirror magic.
They offer an online Associate Member program for worthy aspirants who live beyond the reach of their Temples. This is a graduated program of instruction that parallels and compliments the initiatory sequence without actually conferring or communicating the degrees. However, with study and mentoring, the online student may earn letters of entitlement to receive the degrees."

It's surprising how many members of the occult community have never heard of Poke Runyon and the O.T.A. Take my word, it's definitely worth looking into.
I would but this is the same guy who claims someone typed a whole book of Skyrim vampire lore on his phone and posted it
 
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Regarding Freemasonry and theism, some remarks.



In continental Freemasonry, belief in a supreme being is not a requirement. In the French mother lodge (Grand Orient de France) women are admitted to membership as of recent years. If someone wants to assert that the largest masonic organizations in Europe, Latin America, and Africa are not real or legitimate masons... shrugs.



Interestingly in the 1950's Andre Breton and several other surrealists, avowed atheists, became Freemasons. They did not, however, join the larger Grand Orient but the Grande Loge which is affiliated with the United Grand Lodge of England, and which does require acknowledgement of a supreme being. This is because, despite being atheists, the surrealists feel far greater affinity with the esoteric currents favored in the Grande Loge as opposed to the rationalist laicite embodied in the Grand Orient.
-but that's exactly it, those organizations are not legitimate masonry, for the reasons already mentioned. The Grand Orient of France is NOT the mother lodge of France. There is a legitimate Grand Lodge of France but it is not the Orient. Btw the only Grand Mother lodges are the Grand Lodge of England, Grand Lodge of Ireland and Grand Lodge of Scotland. When you refer to a subordinate lodge as mother lodge you are talking about your mother in masonry, where you were made a Mason, but usually this is referred to as your grandmother.



If you were to join the Grand Orient of France you would not be able to travel and sit in lodge with me or in any regular lodge around the world. You would only be able to sit in a lodge under/chartered by the orient in question. Completely different organizations. One abides by the ancient landmarks and thus actually practices masonry, while one is in name only, bastardizing our rites.



You have a lot of fake groups. It's like a bunch of kids getting together, starting a coven, and saying they are Gardnerian or Alexandrian without any connection or right to do so whatsoever. You even have situations similar to someone who was never a 3°, getting expelled and then starting their own group. -and keep in mind Masonry is like the GD system in that no one man can raise somebody to their degree, it takes a whole degree team of officers to confer a degree. It also requires a charter to work and thus work is to be done as per the landmarks.



Maybe you didn't read what I said. It is impossible for a known Atheist to become a Mason as per the landmarks, so if they did they did they either lied about not being theists/deists or became theists after the fact. Being a landmark we couldn't even vote on them if we wanted to. It's an impossibly unless the landmarks are completely disregarded and thrown out the window, at which point there would be no regularity cementing masonry together and the whole thing would splinter off into various factions. While each Grand Jurisdiction is sovereign, the Landmarks define and bind us into one common mass.



Again though, we take it on the honor system. If you tell us you believe in a Supreme being we take you at your word. If you are lying, well, you'll have to answer to the supreme being you took your obligation under. I suppose to an atheist that carries little weight, as much as being told they are going to hell by an evangelical; however you'll only be robbing yourself should you ever have a belief and decide to go through properly.



Here is the thing, I took an obligation to hold the secrets of masonry in confidence. I didn't take an obligation to prevent you from trying to figure it out or to be bothered if you did. I think a lot of people, if they knew the secrets..would be disappointed. It is often be like casting pearls of wisdom before swine, they too often being unable to see the value. Herein lies the truth about Freemasonry, you can't sell someone on it. A man either understands why such a thing is important or he does not, and if he does not he must find out for themselves the value of such things. Herein is the real secret, that we take men who are already on that precipace, that threshold; the degrees are merely of those secrets which educate you so that you may find the true secret in life, what is important therein. That can not be told, it must be experienced, and the degrees are the liminal points of this mystery, between what is told and what is experienced. We are, after all, a mystery tradition.



The only time your religion should come btw, is when asking if the KJV is appropriate for you to take your obligation on, and if not, which sacred volume of law would be appropriate. That kind of gives it away but we try to approach the question in the least invasive way possible.



-and for the record I think it would be great for Atheist to have their own mystery tradition and we would not be opposed to working with them in our communities for the benefit of said communities, but that organization would not be masonry nor is changing what masonry is to accommodate atheists favorable, even if we could vote on it.



To sum it up, to be a Mason you must:

• Be a male, Freeborn

• Believe in a supreme being

• recognize eternal nature of some part of the soul and/or spirit.

• not be barred due to conviction of a crime, as layed out by the constitution of your Grand Lodge, and the bylaws of the lodge you are joining.

• you must be voted on, and initiated by a properly charted lodge with a warrant to work, and having the nessisary officers present.



Should you become an atheist after joining it is well within the right of the fraternity to ask you to leave or suspend you- though your brother may see this as you struggling with or otherwise having a crisis of faith, whatever faith it may be, and choose to hold this in confidence. If you are a good man, of your word, it is easier to opt for the latter if your atheism would be seen as a private struggle and not so public as to create a precedent.

Recognized: F&AM, AF&AM, PHA is recognized by GL of state, Swedish Rite, Irish Rite. Unrecognized: John G Jones, Grand Orient of France, Co-Masonry, HFAF, OWF, Continental Masonry, Freemasonry International, Meohis & Misraim. be advised though that fake groups will try to put .inc after F&AM or AF&AM.


I'm not sure why the quote system is bugged. Clearly I said the above.

Post automatically merged:

Regarding Freemasonry and theism, some remarks.



In continental Freemasonry, belief in a supreme being is not a requirement. In the French mother lodge (Grand Orient de France) women are admitted to membership as of recent years. If someone wants to assert that the largest masonic organizations in Europe, Latin America, and Africa are not real or legitimate masons... shrugs.



Interestingly in the 1950's Andre Breton and several other surrealists, avowed atheists, became Freemasons. They did not, however, join the larger Grand Orient but the Grande Loge which is affiliated with the United Grand Lodge of England, and which does require acknowledgement of a supreme being. This is because, despite being atheists, the surrealists feel far greater affinity with the esoteric currents favored in the Grande Loge as opposed to the rationalist laicite embodied in the Grand Orient.

-but that's exactly it, those organizations are not legitimate masonry, for the reasons already mentioned. The Grand Orient of France is NOT the mother lodge of France. There is a legitimate Grand Lodge of France but it is not the Orient. Btw the only Grand Mother lodges are the Grand Lodge of England, Grand Lodge of Ireland and Grand Lodge of Scotland. When you refer to a subordinate lodge as mother lodge you are talking about your mother in masonry, where you were made a Mason, but usually this is referred to as your grandmother.

If you were to join the Grand Orient of France you would not be able to travel and sit in lodge with me or in any regular lodge around the world. You would only be able to sit in a lodge under/chartered by the orient in question. Completely different organizations. One abides by the ancient landmarks and thus actually practices masonry, while one is in name only, bastardizing our rites.

You have a lot of fake groups. It's like a bunch of kids getting together, starting a coven, and saying they are Gardnerian or Alexandrian without any connection or right to do so whatsoever. You even have situations similar to someone who was never a 3°, getting expelled and then starting their own group. -and keep in mind Masonry is like the GD system in that no one man can raise somebody to their degree, it takes a whole degree team of officers to confer a degree. It also requires a charter to work and thus work is to be done as per the landmarks.

Maybe you didn't read what I said. It is impossible for a known Atheist to become a Mason as per the landmarks, so if they did they did they either lied about not being theists/deists or became theists after the fact. Being a landmark we couldn't even vote on them if we wanted to. It's an impossibly unless the landmarks are completely disregarded and thrown out the window, at which point there would be no regularity cementing masonry together and the whole thing would splinter off into various factions. While each Grand Jurisdiction is sovereign, the Landmarks define and bind us into one common mass.

Again though, we take it on the honor system. If you tell us you believe in a Supreme being we take you at your word. If you are lying, well, you'll have to answer to the supreme being you took your obligation under. I suppose to an atheist that carries little weight, as much as being told they are going to hell by an evangelical; however you'll only be robbing yourself should you ever have a belief and decide to go through properly.

Here is the thing, I took an obligation to hold the secrets of masonry in confidence. I didn't take an obligation to prevent you from trying to figure it out or to be bothered if you did. I think a lot of people, if they knew the secrets..would be disappointed. It is often be like casting pearls of wisdom before swine, they too often being unable to see the value. Herein lies the truth about Freemasonry, you can't sell someone on it. A man either understands why such a thing is important or he does not, and if he does not he must find out for themselves the value of such things. Herein is the real secret, that we take men who are already on that precipice, that threshold; the degrees are merely of those secrets which educate you so that you may find the true secret in life, what is important therein. That can not be told, it must be experienced, and the degrees are the liminal points of this mystery, between what is told and what is experienced. We are, after all, a mystery tradition.

The only time your religion should come btw, is when asking if the KJV is appropriate for you to take your obligation on, and if not, which sacred volume of law would be appropriate. That kind of gives it away but we try to approach the question in the least invasive way possible.

-and for the record I think it would be great for Atheist to have their own mystery tradition and we would not be opposed to working with them in our communities for the benefit of said communities, but that organization would not be masonry nor is changing what masonry is to accommodate atheists favorable, even if we could vote on it.

To sum it up, to be a Mason you must:
• Be a male, Freeborn
• Believe in a supreme being
• recognize eternal nature of some part of the soul and/or spirit.
• not be barred due to conviction of a crime, as laid out by the constitution of your Grand Lodge, and the bylaws of the lodge you are joining.
• you must be voted on, and initiated by a properly charted lodge with a warrant to work, and having the necessary officers present.

Should you become an atheist after joining it is well within the right of the fraternity to ask you to leave or suspend you- though your brother may see this as you struggling with or otherwise having a crisis of faith, whatever faith it may be, and choose to hold this in confidence. If you are a good man, of your word, it is easier to opt for the latter if your atheism would be seen as a private struggle and not so public as to create a precedent.

Recognized: F&AM, AF&AM, PHA is recognized by GL of state, Swedish Rite, Irish Rite. Unrecognized: John G Jones, Grand Orient of France, Co-Masonry, HFAF, OWF, Continental Masonry, Freemasonry International, Meohis & Misraim. be advised though that fake groups will try to put .inc after F&AM or AF&AM.

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Ughh this forum is so broken on mobile right now, none of that should of been striked-through.. and now that the posts are merged I can't delete the screwed up one, which the fixed one just inherited the bad formating thereof. Frustratingly, this post probably will as well
 
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Xingtian

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Yeah, I get it. “My chosen organization is the real deal. Those other guys are heretics, schismatics, and imposters.” It’s an old and oft-repeated story. Maybe you need to have that attitude but there’s no reason anyone else should take it seriously.
 
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I said it once and I'll say it again.
"If anyone's interested in Solomonic Magick I'd strongly suggest looking into the O.T.A.
the Ordo Templi Astarte (Order of Templars of Astarte. The O.T.A. was founded by American magician Carroll “Poke” Runyon in 1970. Runyon received an irregular
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
charter from Louis Culling in that year, but quickly moved away from OTO traditions to construct an eclectic magical system of his own, based on the eighteenth-century ritual system of the Crata Repoa, the teachings of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the gods and goddesses of the ancient Phoenicians, and his own discoveries in the field of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of spirits through mirror magic.
They offer an online Associate Member program for worthy aspirants who live beyond the reach of their Temples. This is a graduated program of instruction that parallels and compliments the initiatory sequence without actually conferring or communicating the degrees. However, with study and mentoring, the online student may earn letters of entitlement to receive the degrees."

It's surprising how many members of the occult community have never heard of Poke Runyon and the O.T.A. Take my word, it's definitely worth looking into.

The OTA is very interesting. I don't see any reason to disregard it though their additions to the tarot are....also interesting. I do not know that I would call it Solomonic magic though. It is most clearly based in Solomonic magic though through a modern pagan lens, such that I think it can be considered its own tradition outside the Solomonic-Christian sphere.

What I find especially interesting though is your saying how well it parallels a graduated system of degrees while not conferring any. Obviously the Solomonic trad is not the mystery tradition and you won't find degrees mentioned anywhere in the Grimoires. Still, it makes me curious about what a mystery traf rooted in the Ars Goetia would potentially look like, and I could see the OTA becoming a modern reconstruction of proto-Solomonic, ie. pre-Christian and Syncretic Goetia, with a degree set mirroring the ancient training of a Goes.

I've also considered a system using Dante's Inferno for the initiates journey. 8 demons at quarters and crossquarters * nine levels of hell = 72 daemons, though I am currently at a loss of how to place them.
 

Xingtian

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Look, a central myth of western esoteric lineages who put a high premium on apostolic succession or some kind of organizational continuity is that they are in fact some unbroken lineage going back through history to Pythagoras, ancient Egypt, etc. Such claims were more sustainable in times when scholarship in ancient texts, Egyptology, etc was rudimentary or inaccessible, but nowadays it’s clear to anyone who isn’t an inveterate dogmatist that these organizations are all at most a few centuries old. So just go with whoever you like.
 
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Yeah, I get it. “My chosen organization is the real deal. Those other guys are heretics, schismatics, and imposters.” It’s an old and oft-repeated story. Maybe you need to have that attitude but there’s no reason anyone else should take it seriously.

Again, you don't understand that nature of what you are talking about. You need to understand the nature of Freemasonry before you speak on such things, lest you look like a fool.

We are not talking about schisms nor are we talking about being a chosen group nor are we talking about people doing their own thing outside of association and representation.

We are talking about the fraudulent misrepresentation of Masonry. This isn't, Luther breaks away from the Catholic Church kind of deal. This is more, if Luther had no connection or claim to the Catholic church and found his Church which he then claims to be the proper and legitimate Catholic Church.

I do not understand what is so hard for you to understand about this. Again, let us say a group of kids reads a book on Gardnerian Wicca and then decided to call themselves Gardnerian. They aren't Gardnerian because to be Gardnerian you have to be initiated into a proper lineage.

Freemasonry is also initiatory, and being a lodge system you need a full set of necessary officers and a warrant to work and put on the degree. In Gardnerian Wicca anyone of the opposite sex, of sufficient degree (second to confer 1st, third to confer second and third with/in charge of coven to confer third) to initiate one to a given degree. In Freemasonry no one man can make a Mason without the assistance of the brethren. I can not then, initiate someone to an Entered Apprentice on my own. The only way do do this is non-ritually, if the Grand Master makes someone a Mason on site. Still though, that Grand Master has to be invested those powers by a properly chartered Grand Lodge.

In my example I'm not even talking about Neo-Wicca. The term Wicca, though not the religion, obviously being older than Gardner. Our organization coined the term Freemasonry though so that would be blatant appropriation.

-and to be clear, let's say my Lodge lost it's charter. We would not be able to make recognized Masons no matter how well we know the ritual.

Keep in mind to that different Sovereign jurisdictions, lineages and appendant rites and/or bodies do recognize eachother. It's a process called amity- so no, it isn't a "our way or the highway" mentality and we come together to have lengthy discussions about the proper interpretations of our landmarks, bylaws and constitutions.

Did you know that Freemasonry international is little more than an Amway like scheme branding itself Masonry? It's true, they are constantly scamming people, in our name, so obviously we aren't cool with that. It is blatant misrepresentation and we fight it when we can.

If it were merely a matter of lineage and regularity it wouldn't be a problem and if it were a jurisdictional issue that could be resolved.

Then we have John G Jones playing Masons, and I direct you to the lawsuits establishing that John G Jones Freemasonry is a fraudulent entity. They were ordered to change their name in a court of law, which they did... to something slightly different.. legit Masonry spent lots of money and won, but for very little legal result.

That "attitude" is a respect for ones initiatic tradition and those who brought them through it, and not wanting to see that tradition tainted and misrepresented- and frankly, if you are not a brother you don't get to say who is or is not part of the Order.

Here is another fact to consider. Those who have joined a clandestion or otherwise bogus lodge can renounce affiliation with said lodge and petition a regular lodge. Many however do not because they can't pass the criminal background check, which is unfortunate for them because many of these fake lodges have insane dues costs that are just unheard of in regular masonry. I pay $180 a year for Craft lodge and that is considered high here. There are fake lodges costing people 100s even 1000s of dollars a month. In any case, this process of becoming regular is called being healed in PHA masonry.
 

Taudefindi

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Honestly I just think that Freemasonry seems to be pretentious due to not wanting to "keep up with times" and still using that old and outdated excuse as to why "only men can be true masons".

Of course that back in time only men could work as masons(as in the profession), nowadays that isn't the case though.To me it seems like men in freemasonry(specially those in lodges that do not recognize mixed or female-only ones) just want to deny entry as well as the status of those lodges all to keep the feeling of being exclusive.

Like a club where only "the chosen few" can join.

This doesn't seem like something geared to betterment, just pure and plain elitism.
 
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Look, a central myth of western esoteric lineages who put a high premium on apostolic succession or some kind of organizational continuity is that they are in fact some unbroken lineage going back through history to Pythagoras, ancient Egypt, etc. Such claims were more sustainable in times when scholarship in ancient texts, Egyptology, etc was rudimentary or inaccessible, but nowadays it’s clear to anyone who isn’t an inveterate dogmatist that these organizations are all at most a few centuries old. So just go with whoever you like.

True, very much so. We can not prove Masonry actually has a connection back to Solomon's temple via the Templers, though there are some interesting things that beg the question of a popular Templar connection -but did a stone Mason ever shake the hand of a templer, was just inspired or found something? Who knows.. I will make three statements on the matter: I. We can not prove a historical connection to the Templers. II. From my studies I'm convinced there is a connection but can not tell you exactly what it is, not being I'm under obligation not to buy because I do not know. III The biggest wrench in the theory is that we used to practice the old Noachite ritual before our current one, possibly indicating that either the origin story is false or that our Templar connection predates the notion of the story being received from them. I believe these to be fair statements.

Hell, our lore doesn't even say we have an unbroken lineage back to the Temple. It gets at the idea that the Templars found the story among the ruins of the temple and when they found refuge in the stone guilds when the Catholic Church came after them, they shared this story with us and we choose to dedicate our guilds to Solomon and those early builders.

No Mason who knows anything about Masonic history is going to tell you that the organization itself goes back to the building of the temple, that's just absurd.

Yeah Pythagoreas is considered an honorary Mason, because older books say he was a freemason..but what we need to understand is that at the time Freemasonry and Geometry were considered synonyms as was Mason and geometrist. This has led to much confusion, as when Albert Mackey talks about it possibly going back to Khemet or Babylon, he was talking about geometry not the stone guilds Freemasonry comes from.

Here is what we know,
The earliest reference to ritualized [Free]masonry was in 1390 with the Regis Poem in the Halliwell manuscript. In the 1590s there is a decree in Scotland to start keeping minutes. In 1717 the first Grand Lodge, the Premier Grand Lodge of England is formed and it would later go on to merge to become the United Grand Lodge of England.

Freemasonry is older than Rosicrucianism but Rosicrucianism is older than the first Grand Lodge and had a considerable influence on Freemasonry in those formative years. The common symbol set making its way through alchemy, astrology and the Hermetic revival during the Renaissance and later enlightenment also had a major influence as most common folk, and Masonry started out among the working men, could not read or write.

While we certainly do not go back to antiquity, we can be partially blamed for the existence of both most esoteric orders and exoteric civil service groups. Future Farmers of America and Boy Scouts were both started by Masons, well..I can't recall if a Mason found FFA or just wrote it's openings and closings. All western lodge systems wether it be the Elks, Moose Lodge etc. Is modeled after the structure of a Masonic Lodge with it's officers, grips, passwords etc. Even Gardner's Wicca is heavily influenced and colored by his time as a Co-Mason and it's form of Masonic Rosicrucianism. Again Co-Masonry isn't legitimate but I've heard he was a regular Mason prior though I've not confirmed it.

The OTO started as Clandestine Masonic Templarism, in bed with Memphis Misraim. They stole and reworked to their system, the craft degrees, PM degree, Arch degree, Knight if the East and West degrees and the Rose Croix degree. They may have appropriated the Mark Master as well, I'd have to go and check.

As for the GD it's grades are clearly inspired by the format of Masonic degrees, which should come as no surprise as it's three founding members were of the SRiA, a form of Masonic Rosicrucianism that requires you to be a MM, though the GD had no such requirement and did admit women.

AMORC, which doesn't actually teach Rosicrucianism but refers to themselves as such, actually came out of the OTO.

There would have been no AA if Crowley had not been initiated into the AA and if Thelema had still managed to exist, it would have been very different. BOTA is also based on the GD system of Correspondences.

Freemasonry greatly inspired a young Manly P Hall as well, though much of what he wrote about it in his younger days was inaccurate.

So we are at least partly responsible, in starting a chain reaction, for: FFA, Boyscouts, Elks, Mooselodge, NROD, Martinism, The Order of the Golden and Rosy Cross, The Societias Rosicruciana, The Rosicrucian Fellowship, The Golden Dawn, The AA, Thelema, The OTO, Memphis Misraim, AMORC, BOTA, The Order of Woodcraft Chivalry, Wicca, The Corotona Fellowship, The Rite of Perfection, The Rite of Strict Observance, and The Order of the Temple to name a few.

In fact if we didn't indirectly or indirectly influence it's beginnings, it probably goes back to Blatvasky's Theosophy or perhaps the Aurum Solis. -and make no mistake I'm not saying all these groups are affiliated with or have a direction connection.

Also even groups derived from these other two catalysts often have Masonic influence somewhere in their history. People point to this espousing the idea that we are behind everything.. but keep in mind that these lineages and connections are often broken and when direct often denote schisms or otherwise changes in core philosophy.
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Honestly I just think that Freemasonry seems to be pretentious due to not wanting to "keep up with times" and still using that old and outdated excuse as to why "only men can be true masons".

Of course that back in time only men could work as masons(as in the profession), nowadays that isn't the case though.To me it seems like men in freemasonry(specially those in lodges that do not recognize mixed or female-only ones) just want to deny entry as well as the status of those lodges all to keep the feeling of being exclusive.

Like a club where only "the chosen few" can join.

This doesn't seem like something geared to betterment, just pure and plain elitism.

And you are entitled to that opinion, erroneous though it may be. The only reason Masonry has survived this long is because we are slow to change. Though we are a progressive science, warranting critical examination..we did not get to were we are today by being quick to adopt the fads and woke'isms of any particular age back in its day. Instead we hold to those tried and true virtues to see us through. Yes, we are old fashioned and yes we are slow to adapt to the changing times. In particular we have done a horrible job with our social media presence. These things have made us look backwards to outsiders but you must understand that there is a due firm and process to everything in Freemasonry. We meet for Grand communication once a year and aren't apt to vote on anything that may not even be socially relevant decades from now. We often wait decades to see if it will still be relevant, playing the long game. This is how we have been able to stay stable and relevant.

When you look at groups like the Illuminati especially, OTO, TST, etc. They are constantly involved in politics, political upset, and facing schisms is not implosion. While Masons tend to fight, individually, for the underdog, historically speaking, to establish their own rights of governance, believing power should not be so centralized, we do not bring our fraternity into any of that.

We are very involved in helping our community on the one hand while not being caught up in the worldly on the other. We instead, hold to those eternal truths and virtues while holding to the certainty that we will die.

Nor are we obliged to coddle the times. Something is not right just because it is popular. Virtue has never been the path of multitude. It is not healthy to confirm to any society that is unhealthy though we are charged to be good upstanding citizens and obey the law. Nor do we owe anyone an explanation for our private affairs.

Nor is it wrong to not admit women. We are a fraternity, a private organization and afforded that right. No one chastises the Red Hat society for not allowing men nor would anyone thing it appropriate to force a women's rape support group to admit men. Freemasonry is a place for men, to be supported and encouraged by other men in their personal growth. This is so very vital to society, especially if young men lack good masculine role models, fatherly or otherwise.

As I have stated several times already the rituals in Freemasonry are centered around being a man, and what that entails ..particularly how society sees, treats and what it expects of men. Some of societies views are healthy and many are not, but Freemasonry brings men together in their common experience in this walk. A woman can not be a mason because a woman will never know what it is like to be a man. Even a trans man will not be treated the same in society, which is not their fault but it is reality, and even if they were they will never know what it is to be born a man.

For these reasons there is absolutely nothing to be gained by putting a woman through the degrees of Freemasonry, and everything to be lost if we compromise men being able to have a healthy male-only space outside of general society were we are expected to be strong for those we protect and take care of.

It is true that the construction industry has usurped much of stone masonry and women can be stone masons now. You miss the point entirely however, that because of these initial conditions, Freemasonry started as a mystery tradition, fraternity and supportive fellowship for men. We are no longer operative Masons so your point is moot.

It's not about being exclusive and if you think it is, you do not understand the nature of Freemasonry. -which is fine, you aren't a brother and have no first hand experience of what we do in a tiled lodge, so I can't expect you to.

Until you experience it for yourself and why it is an important thing for men to have... It probably will look outdated and elitest to you. Again, that is fine, especially as we are at a bit of an impass. You seem content to hold to your convictions, despite there being rooted in preconceptions instead of considering what someone who is actually a member of the fraternity has to say about it.

So, you believing it to be elitest I will say this: That is our right just as it is your right to believe so and these rights shall not be infringed. We have every right to gatekeep and protect our organization, are not on trial, will not put ourselves on trial and do have to give anyone an explanation if they are not a brother. That said I am not typing any of this for my own benefit, I could be far more productive but hope these words will, in the future, be met with some reason.

Aside from not letting in Atheist, women and liabilities, we are completely inclusive though GL does not tell it's lodges how to vote as not everyone is right for every lodge; save for not discriminating based on religion or race.

Again we do have sisters in the Masonic family. Eastern Star, while being Co-ed, was drawn up for female relatives of Mason and is from a women's perspective being based on the five heroins of the Bible. Other women's bodies are even women only. Again I think women have every right to have their own thing (not ours) but must naysayers of Masonry stating it is misogynist and sexist, would not support my wanting to join the Red Hat Society, a Women's shelter or a support group. At the risk of sounding woke, sometimes men need a "safe space".

Am I elitest, no
Am I misogynist, no
Am I a gatekeeper? Damns traight I am. I protect that west gate to protect myself, my family and my fraternity and have seen so many organizations I've cared about be one corrupt not to do so.
 
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Diluculo_DelFuego

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Okay, perhaps it would be helpful if I explained myself:
Flirted with: Demonolatry, Celtic Magic and Wicca/Witchcraft (via Cunningham and Buckland).
Engaged in: Golden Dawn studies, BOTA, and Fraternity of the Hidden Light. In fact if I had the money, I would reorder all BOTA/FLO lessons. The two times for my first GD lodge initiation was thwarted by the universe two times.
Grew up as: Protestant/Baptist. Joined the LDS.

I appreciate and respect nature, in the good, bad and ugly, as every season has its own agenda, according to the four tides.
I am Celtic by ethnicity, and joined the Mormon Church to get expanded ancestry help among other reasons.
Ive been attracted to Freemasonry, albeit after reading Manly Hall and Israel Regardie.

If I were to do it over again, would probably go OTO or AA, AA especially beneficial with 1 on 1 coaching. Mail correspondence would be ideal as well. Thats how FLO and BOTA rolled as well.
However, Solomonic Magic has always interested me. I re-added on FB Aaron Leitch and my old teacher and joined his Solomonic group. If I were to do it again, yes, probably Freemasonry first and then AA or OTO.
Post automatically merged:

I am still considering all the active schools out there. I did join Aaron Leitchs Solomonic Magic group on FB a bit late though. So will wait until it restarts and.join in.
 
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Okay, perhaps it would be helpful if I explained myself:
Flirted with: Demonolatry, Celtic Magic and Wicca/Witchcraft (via Cunningham and Buckland).
Engaged in: Golden Dawn studies, BOTA, and Fraternity of the Hidden Light. In fact if I had the money, I would reorder all BOTA/FLO lessons. The two times for my first GD lodge initiation was thwarted by the universe two times.
Grew up as: Protestant/Baptist. Joined the LDS.

I appreciate and respect nature, in the good, bad and ugly, as every season has its own agenda, according to the four tides.
I am Celtic by ethnicity, and joined the Mormon Church to get expanded ancestry help among other reasons.
Ive been attracted to Freemasonry, albeit after reading Manly Hall and Israel Regardie.

If I were to do it over again, would probably go OTO or AA, AA especially beneficial with 1 on 1 coaching. Mail correspondence would be ideal as well. Thats how FLO and BOTA rolled as well.
However, Solomonic Magic has always interested me. I re-added on FB Aaron Leitch and my old teacher and joined his Solomonic group. If I were to do it again, yes, probably Freemasonry first and then AA or OTO.
Post automatically merged:

I am still considering all the active schools out there. I did join Aaron Leitchs Solomonic Magic group on FB a bit late though. So will wait until it restarts and.join in.

You seem to be going back and forth about how to proceed. The first first piece of advice I would give would be that joining something just to join something is not the answer as another poster has already stated.

I've heard members of the oto say that "masonry makes good men and the OTO makes magicians" and that is a fair statement. Following that conception people have asked me if the OTO would be a better fit for them, looking for a magical order.

The oto is in order based on a religion, that being the religion of Thelema. So if you are already a Thelamite or considering adopting the worldview of a Thelamite, I would not recommend joining the OTO. If you are partial to salemic thought and looking for an order doing operative magic or at least adjacent there to, yes OTO would be a better fit for you.

I am using this as an example of figuring it out.

The first thing you were going to have to do is figure out what your values are and what you want from your path. Once you figure this out then you can decide whether a solitary path or group work suits you best and I am of the mind that it is important to have both in your life if that is an option for you.

And figuring out your values you're going to figure out how you relate to the things in your life, two ideas, two people, into spirits. You might question whether you want to work with angels or demons or elementals but have you asked yourself what kind of relationship you wish to have with them and what relationships do you believe or even possible with such entities? Do you even believe such entities exist or do you merely practice a psychological model?

These are all questions which if figured out will give you an idea of where you fit and what you're looking for. See if you join something just to join something you aren't doing it because it's right for you but because you are an absent of what is right for you and you want to be part of something. Feeling that you are part of something is very much a human need, but it is important to be part of the right something. Being part of a crowd that is not conducive to your nature can be just as bad as falling in with the wrong crowd. Best case scenario you were surrounded by people in this crowd that care deeply for you and are looking out for you but you will always be an outsider even though you are part of the group when it is not of your heart or your values. That is an extremely lonely place to be in.

The grass isn't necessarily going to be greener on the other side just because you join an order.

I would also take a step back and ask yourself which experiences and memberships have been beneficial to you in the past. In which situation should you actually learn something and in which situations did you feel a meaningful alignment to what you were doing. Which situations reminded you of home or where you're from. I would say follow that feeling where it leads you. It may not lead you where you're meant to end up but it will take you places that will have lessons along the way to figuring it out.

You've got a journal on here. That may be a good place to start wrestling with ideas and your views on things. How do you approach those ideas and conceptions in ritual practice?
 

Xenophon

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Which makes me wonder why they bar the entry to people, specially women, when their aim is apparently to become a better person which is a noble goal in itself.A goal that everyone actually should have.

I get though that not everyone would be a good candidate since this also requires hard work(and majority of people aren't willing or aren't able to dedicate themselves to it), but to outright deny others of even trying to entry seems more like an elitist move in my opinion.To separate the "worthy from the unworthy" and that doesn't sound like something a "good person" would do.
I said it once and I'll say it again.
"If anyone's interested in Solomonic Magick I'd strongly suggest looking into the O.T.A.
the Ordo Templi Astarte (Order of Templars of Astarte. The O.T.A. was founded by American magician Carroll “Poke” Runyon in 1970. Runyon received an irregular
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charter from Louis Culling in that year, but quickly moved away from OTO traditions to construct an eclectic magical system of his own, based on the eighteenth-century ritual system of the Crata Repoa, the teachings of the
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, the gods and goddesses of the ancient Phoenicians, and his own discoveries in the field of the
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of spirits through mirror magic.
They offer an online Associate Member program for worthy aspirants who live beyond the reach of their Temples. This is a graduated program of instruction that parallels and compliments the initiatory sequence without actually conferring or communicating the degrees. However, with study and mentoring, the online student may earn letters of entitlement to receive the degrees."

It's surprising how many members of the occult community have never heard of Poke Runyon and the O.T.A. Take my word, it's definitely worth looking into.
What's surprising about "never heard of Poke Runyon"? (I have heard of him. Even looked a little.) There's tons and tons of info out there and less and less time to look at it. Someone invariably gets left out. This reminds me of those wearisome NPR-type conversations, "Most Americans know NOTHING of the proud Twee ethnic minority of the People's Republic of Elbonia..."
 

Diluculo_DelFuego

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You seem to be going back and forth about how to proceed. The first first piece of advice I would give would be that joining something just to join something is not the answer as another poster has already stated.

I've heard members of the oto say that "masonry makes good men and the OTO makes magicians" and that is a fair statement. Following that conception people have asked me if the OTO would be a better fit for them, looking for a magical order.

The oto is in order based on a religion, that being the religion of Thelema. So if you are already a Thelamite or considering adopting the worldview of a Thelamite, I would not recommend joining the OTO. If you are partial to salemic thought and looking for an order doing operative magic or at least adjacent there to, yes OTO would be a better fit for you.

I am using this as an example of figuring it out.

The first thing you were going to have to do is figure out what your values are and what you want from your path. Once you figure this out then you can decide whether a solitary path or group work suits you best and I am of the mind that it is important to have both in your life if that is an option for you.

And figuring out your values you're going to figure out how you relate to the things in your life, two ideas, two people, into spirits. You might question whether you want to work with angels or demons or elementals but have you asked yourself what kind of relationship you wish to have with them and what relationships do you believe or even possible with such entities? Do you even believe such entities exist or do you merely practice a psychological model?

These are all questions which if figured out will give you an idea of where you fit and what you're looking for. See if you join something just to join something you aren't doing it because it's right for you but because you are an absent of what is right for you and you want to be part of something. Feeling that you are part of something is very much a human need, but it is important to be part of the right something. Being part of a crowd that is not conducive to your nature can be just as bad as falling in with the wrong crowd. Best case scenario you were surrounded by people in this crowd that care deeply for you and are looking out for you but you will always be an outsider even though you are part of the group when it is not of your heart or your values. That is an extremely lonely place to be in.

The grass isn't necessarily going to be greener on the other side just because you join an order.

I would also take a step back and ask yourself which experiences and memberships have been beneficial to you in the past. In which situation should you actually learn something and in which situations did you feel a meaningful alignment to what you were doing. Which situations reminded you of home or where you're from. I would say follow that feeling where it leads you. It may not lead you where you're meant to end up but it will take you places that will have lessons along the way to figuring it out.

You've got a journal on here. That may be a good place to start wrestling with ideas and your views on things. How do you approach those ideas and conceptions in ritual practice?
Like all posts or replies, you make great points. Ive answered in my journal that what I believe and want are very expansive questions. Will think long and hard on your reply. @Xenophon ... yes, I have known about Poke Runyon since usenet alt.magick days. Since Im in California, it would be more worthwhile to check his temple out.
 

Xenophon

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Like all posts or replies, you make great points. Ive answered in my journal that what I believe and want are very expansive questions. Will think long and hard on your reply. @Xenophon ... yes, I have known about Poke Runyon since usenet alt.magick days. Since Im in California, it would be more worthwhile to check his temple out.
Actually someone else recommended Poke. (I was just poking fun at being surprised that someone didn't know Poke. It's like Sherlock Holmes being ignorant of astronomy: one has to make choices. Blue cheese 'n banana daiquiri might be a great ice cream flavor, but I've already opted for a Cheesy Poofs 'n curdled curds cone.)
 
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