[Opinion] Thelema.. Is it worth studying?

[Beyond Everything]

lol@you using AI. We know people have a firm grasp on a topic when they do that

Here's an old discussion of the OTO IX degree, and the unimpressive results people had using the technique therein

Edited out the link to another forum

 

[Yazata]

It's funny to see how so many threads in this forum end up as battles of ego's. Let's conclude that you both have different ways of interpreting that Crowley quote and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.
And do not link to other forums - this is against the rules. And please also avoid using AI.

 

[Kepler]

If attempts with the IX secret is OP's goal of studying Thelema it's helpful to look at it like Oppenheimer. Meaning that in a general context there is knowing there is something, knowing how to do somethings with that something, then making a big something happen are all different things.

As for Crowley's personal deficiencies even he stated that what he accomplished hampered by those should be encouraging to those without and the results of others should exceed.
There's always going to be people that think emulating all qualities of a revered person is the way for them to succeed. It's fair to caution against this but it's not even that common in Thelemic seekers from places where education and culture leads people into personality cults through idolization and idealism overlooking flaws. And OP hasn't indicated a vulnerability to this.

All writing should be read critically and carefully if it's going to be attempted.
Decades ago it was interesting to find out how other people read and did Liber Jugorum.

 

[Beyond Everything]

and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.

Ok, Thelema is worth studying if you believe in the religious dogma of a True Will, enjoy mysticism, have a confused relationship with your so-called 'ego', and need someone to tell you how to structure your perception of reality.

Thelema is not worth studying if you're interested in immortalization (what at least parts of the LHP aims at,in theory) and practical magick that gets you consistent material results.

 

[Firetree]

I like the point about Shakespeare, actually. It's not that he invented everything (or anything), but he is classic for a reason, just like Crowley. And many more would return to his works yet, while impostors and plagiarists would be forgotten. It's easy to criticise, but try to become a new Shakespeare or Crowley and we'll see how you fare.

I think Beyond Everything should be reported every time he tries to shit on somebody, as it is clearly no mistake, but deliberate and consistent action he repeats over time. And I think his game is obvious at this point. It's the illusion of power he gets, when he manages to convince somebody that some system or person is worthless (mirroring his own worthlessness, actually), and if he can't, then at least he gets a rush from making you spend your time and energy on him. Any reaction to him is more than he can hope for, knowing exactly how worthless he is deep down, so it's always a plus Ridicule and ignore is all he deserves, and if I was staff, he'd be long gone.

Well, I am still finding my way here . I noted that being off topic can be an infraction that gets a penalty ... yet clear 'insults' seem to breeze past (other forum I was on that would be instant trouble ) .

I tend to think I need to counter wrong info in case others are swallowing it, especially beginners .

Also ... obviously , I like a bit of ...

But also I have found some people here already that I really like ( you are an example ) and from what they write , I have no need to 'engage ' with them that way .

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:23 PM

It's funny to see how so many threads in this forum end up as battles of ego's. Let's conclude that you both have different ways of interpreting that Crowley quote and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.
And do not link to other forums - this is against the rules. And please also avoid using AI.

Okay, thanks for feedback . Is using AI against the rules ? I mostly use it to source what I already know as it saves time typing it all out ( PS I am aware it will lie to me ... but if one already knows the subject matter , that will be obvious . )

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:32 PM

If attempts with the IX secret is OP's goal of studying Thelema it's helpful to look at it like Oppenheimer. Meaning that in a general context there is knowing there is something, knowing how to do somethings with that something, then making a big something happen are all different things.

As for Crowley's personal deficiencies even he stated that what he accomplished hampered by those should be encouraging to those without and the results of others should exceed.
There's always going to be people that think emulating all qualities of a revered person is the way for them to succeed. It's fair to caution against this but it's not even that common in Thelemic seekers from places where education and culture leads people into personality cults through idolization and idealism overlooking flaws. And OP hasn't indicated a vulnerability to this.

All writing should be read critically and carefully if it's going to be attempted.
Decades ago it was interesting to find out how other people read and did Liber Jugorum.

Its one of things I like about Thelema ; who is going to tell me I should or should not ? (Unless you in the AA ? ... I dont know much about AA )

I am free to adopt the beautiful parts of CH 1 BoL and totally ignore the rest . I am free to totally ignore Liber Jugorum (or change it to wearing a rubber band on my wrist and snap it .. or whatever) *

BUT one must remember .... ( as per instruction in things like OTO and MTP and other books) . That it is also instructed that a LOT of preliminary work should be done first !


* its a valuable tool for the balanced and wise ; years back , sword instructor ; '' Keep that elbow tucked in or I will hit it '' ( wooden sword )
Me ; '' stop saying that ! it isnt changing anything ... just hit it fer gawds sake ! ''

So he did . I havent exposed my elbow like that since

 

[Van Horne]

That is a very great post and I agree with everything you said.

Thank you very much for your kind words!!!

Adding that this is also where Thelema becomes LHP 'Accepting and using the dark side for spiritual development ' rejecting no part of human nature and transmuting it alchemically.

D'accord! I just started to read "Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God" by Kenneth Grant. He outlines some of Crowley's writings that could be considered LHP. Especially his idea about Thelema replacing Christianity, as a religion free of dogma and moralistic boundaries.

practical magick that gets you consistent material results

In this case, I would recommend studying economics

 

[Firetree]

I will mention again about the True Will , it is not a 'religious doctrine' specific to Thelema or Crowley , it Comes originally (as far as I can trace back ) to Zoroastrianism .

Of course there are some 'cultural variations' here but I think the similarities in concepts are obvious , and yes , it is an example of Crowley 'lifting' something from somewhere else ... but I think we are talking here about value of a system ... not specifically the originality of a system ?

I fail to see how someone NOT being aware of their incarnation's purpose, reason and learning for being here can help ???

Spoiler: Khvarenah

Khvarenah​

• [Also spelt khvareno, khvarana or khwarnag (the 'khv/khw' are at times denoted by 'hu'). Middle Persian Pahlavi: khwar, khwarr, or khwarrah. New Persian: Khorra(h). Related Old Persian: farnah. New Persian: farr.]
• The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the
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  and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.
• The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].
• Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life]. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
• A
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  - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
• An
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  - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
• A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose
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  , the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
• The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.
• There is a strong implication in Zamyad Yasht (Yt 19.46-57) that the khvarenah that does not belong to a person cannot be seized by another person. The implication is that we should be content with our khvarenah and not be jealous or greedy of the other's khvarenah (here, good fortune).
• When all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain
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  &
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  - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth. (Also see the section on
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  , the Aryan homeland, as paradise.)
• Human beings often limit or loose themselves. In either case, they do not achieve their full potential or capacity.
• While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.
• To loose oneself is to loose one's khvarenah.
• In mythology, the khvarenah is like a bird that hovers over a person, and one that can fly away. If grace is replaced by evil ambitions, the bird is replaced by serpents growing out of that person's shoulders [see
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  , Yima Khshaeta (King Jamshid) in the Zamyad Yasht, and
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  ].
• The source of the khvarenah is said to be the divine spiritual light that is eternal and which casts no shadow (Denkard Madon 347.6-7).
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah is evidenced by a halo (farr in Persian), glowing brightly over her or his head - radiant as the sun (khvar/khor). (See portrait of Zarathushtra at the top of the page - a physical representation of something perceived by the spiritual eye and senses.) The opposite of the light of a halo is darkness - like a dark cloud hanging over someone.
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah cloaks that person with the aura of charisma and grace, the kind possessed by
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  and
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  .
• Khvarenah and the resulting charisma enable leadership that does not rely on authority.
• [For those interested in the etymology of the modern Persian names; Farr, Farah, Farahmand, Farrokh derive from the Old Persian farnah. Farr is translated as halo or nimbus - the aura of spiritual light, a light that casts no shadow, that surrounds a person filled with goodness and grace.]

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:44 PM

ooops , I left out the source citation ;

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[Beyond Everything]

I will mention again about the True Will , it is not a 'religious doctrine' specific to Thelema or Crowley

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.

Especially his idea about Thelema replacing Christianity, as a religion free of dogma and moralistic boundaries.

It's hardly free of dogma. The true will is a piece of religious indoctrination along with the HGA. Being 'commanded' by some entity to write a fuzzy religious text is hardly self-rulership lol

Crowley wrote something called Duty which outlined obligations of the Thelemite, so that sounds like moralistic boundaries to me. He ended up in tortured contortions trying to explain this from Duty -'Abstain from all interferences with other wills.' elsewhere, even saying rape was sometimes ok lol

The amazing thing is people spend many years of their lives trying to decode and parse what Crowley said, meanwhile Crowley himself didn't have enough magic power to get his practical rituals working. lol

 

[Van Horne]

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.


It's hardly free of dogma. The true will is a piece of religious indoctrination along with the HGA. Being 'commanded' by some entity to write a fuzzy religious text is hardly self-rulership lol

Crowley wrote something called Duty which outlined obligations of the Thelemite, so that sounds like moralistic boundaries to me. He ended up in tortured contortions trying to explain this from Duty -'Abstain from all interferences with other wills.' elsewhere, even saying rape was sometimes ok lol

The amazing thing is people spend many years of their lives trying to decode and parse what Crowley said, meanwhile Crowley himself didn't have enough magic power to get his practical rituals working. lol

LOL LOL LOL is the Number of the BEAST!!!

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:48 AM

All jokes aside, I think your criticism is justified.

Buttttttttttt.... there is a big distinction to be made between studying and following something.

If to study means to read, to understand, to evaluate, to criticize, to discuss, to extract valuable elements. In this case, yes it's worth studying.

To follow in the sense of following blindly, to take everything for granted, for true and never-failing, without questioning any aspect of it, ignoring other systems, then no, of course not! And never lend any money to Crowley, for he is a powerful magician who makes it disappear forever!

 

[Firetree]

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.

Wow ....

'So what' is ; I was actually agreeing with one of your complaints that Crowley copied stuff from other sources .

I am not trying to 'pretend' anything about that .

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:17 AM

LOL LOL LOL is the Number of the BEAST!!!

Post automatically merged: Today at 12:48 AM

All jokes aside, I think your criticism is justified.

Buttttttttttt.... there is a big distinction to be made between studying and following something.

If to study means to read, to understand, to evaluate, to criticize, to discuss, to extract valuable elements. In this case, yes it's worth studying.

To follow in the sense of following blindly, to take everything for granted, for true and never-failing, without questioning any aspect of it, ignoring other systems, then no, of course not! And never lend any money to Crowley, for he is a powerful magician who makes it disappear forever!

Excellent point ! Even the Old Boy himself didnt like that ( the bolded ^ ) :

"I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions". He wanted others to "cut [their] own way through the jungle". - 'The Fetish of Fools' .

He mocked those who begged for his secrets and how to 'make gold' ( Book of Lies Ch 88 - 'Gold bricks' )

- I know this is coming off like I am a Crowley defender , but I could also list a heap of his personal faults and mistakes . I will speak up though when people post unsubstantiated criminal activity and gossip about him ... or anyone for that matter .

What I find strange is some people complain about him ; he did dark stuff , he took drugs , he was a sex fiend , he was a Satanist , he was gay ... etc etc . And some of those people settle down at night to a good dose of TV violence , rape, murder , horror ... for a ' good nights entertainment ' .

Rather hypocritical I think .