[Opinion] Thelema.. Is it worth studying?

[Beyond Everything]

lol@you using AI. We know people have a firm grasp on a topic when they do that

Here's an old discussion of the OTO IX degree, and the unimpressive results people had using the technique therein

Edited out the link to another forum

 

[Yazata]

It's funny to see how so many threads in this forum end up as battles of ego's. Let's conclude that you both have different ways of interpreting that Crowley quote and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.
And do not link to other forums - this is against the rules. And please also avoid using AI.

 

[Kepler]

If attempts with the IX secret is OP's goal of studying Thelema it's helpful to look at it like Oppenheimer. Meaning that in a general context there is knowing there is something, knowing how to do somethings with that something, then making a big something happen are all different things.

As for Crowley's personal deficiencies even he stated that what he accomplished hampered by those should be encouraging to those without and the results of others should exceed.
There's always going to be people that think emulating all qualities of a revered person is the way for them to succeed. It's fair to caution against this but it's not even that common in Thelemic seekers from places where education and culture leads people into personality cults through idolization and idealism overlooking flaws. And OP hasn't indicated a vulnerability to this.

All writing should be read critically and carefully if it's going to be attempted.
Decades ago it was interesting to find out how other people read and did Liber Jugorum.

 

[Beyond Everything]

and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.

Ok, Thelema is worth studying if you believe in the religious dogma of a True Will, enjoy mysticism, have a confused relationship with your so-called 'ego', and need someone to tell you how to structure your perception of reality.

Thelema is not worth studying if you're interested in immortalization (what at least parts of the LHP aims at,in theory) and practical magick that gets you consistent material results.

 

[Firetree]

I like the point about Shakespeare, actually. It's not that he invented everything (or anything), but he is classic for a reason, just like Crowley. And many more would return to his works yet, while impostors and plagiarists would be forgotten. It's easy to criticise, but try to become a new Shakespeare or Crowley and we'll see how you fare.

I think Beyond Everything should be reported every time he tries to shit on somebody, as it is clearly no mistake, but deliberate and consistent action he repeats over time. And I think his game is obvious at this point. It's the illusion of power he gets, when he manages to convince somebody that some system or person is worthless (mirroring his own worthlessness, actually), and if he can't, then at least he gets a rush from making you spend your time and energy on him. Any reaction to him is more than he can hope for, knowing exactly how worthless he is deep down, so it's always a plus Ridicule and ignore is all he deserves, and if I was staff, he'd be long gone.

Well, I am still finding my way here . I noted that being off topic can be an infraction that gets a penalty ... yet clear 'insults' seem to breeze past (other forum I was on that would be instant trouble ) .

I tend to think I need to counter wrong info in case others are swallowing it, especially beginners .

Also ... obviously , I like a bit of ...

But also I have found some people here already that I really like ( you are an example ) and from what they write , I have no need to 'engage ' with them that way .

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It's funny to see how so many threads in this forum end up as battles of ego's. Let's conclude that you both have different ways of interpreting that Crowley quote and continue the rest of this thread with the original question the OP was asking if Thelema is worth studying.
And do not link to other forums - this is against the rules. And please also avoid using AI.

Okay, thanks for feedback . Is using AI against the rules ? I mostly use it to source what I already know as it saves time typing it all out ( PS I am aware it will lie to me ... but if one already knows the subject matter , that will be obvious . )

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2026

If attempts with the IX secret is OP's goal of studying Thelema it's helpful to look at it like Oppenheimer. Meaning that in a general context there is knowing there is something, knowing how to do somethings with that something, then making a big something happen are all different things.

As for Crowley's personal deficiencies even he stated that what he accomplished hampered by those should be encouraging to those without and the results of others should exceed.
There's always going to be people that think emulating all qualities of a revered person is the way for them to succeed. It's fair to caution against this but it's not even that common in Thelemic seekers from places where education and culture leads people into personality cults through idolization and idealism overlooking flaws. And OP hasn't indicated a vulnerability to this.

All writing should be read critically and carefully if it's going to be attempted.
Decades ago it was interesting to find out how other people read and did Liber Jugorum.

Its one of things I like about Thelema ; who is going to tell me I should or should not ? (Unless you in the AA ? ... I dont know much about AA )

I am free to adopt the beautiful parts of CH 1 BoL and totally ignore the rest . I am free to totally ignore Liber Jugorum (or change it to wearing a rubber band on my wrist and snap it .. or whatever) *

BUT one must remember .... ( as per instruction in things like OTO and MTP and other books) . That it is also instructed that a LOT of preliminary work should be done first !


* its a valuable tool for the balanced and wise ; years back , sword instructor ; '' Keep that elbow tucked in or I will hit it '' ( wooden sword )
Me ; '' stop saying that ! it isnt changing anything ... just hit it fer gawds sake ! ''

So he did . I havent exposed my elbow like that since

 

[Van Horne]

That is a very great post and I agree with everything you said.

Thank you very much for your kind words!!!

Adding that this is also where Thelema becomes LHP 'Accepting and using the dark side for spiritual development ' rejecting no part of human nature and transmuting it alchemically.

D'accord! I just started to read "Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God" by Kenneth Grant. He outlines some of Crowley's writings that could be considered LHP. Especially his idea about Thelema replacing Christianity, as a religion free of dogma and moralistic boundaries.

practical magick that gets you consistent material results

In this case, I would recommend studying economics

 

[Firetree]

I will mention again about the True Will , it is not a 'religious doctrine' specific to Thelema or Crowley , it Comes originally (as far as I can trace back ) to Zoroastrianism .

Of course there are some 'cultural variations' here but I think the similarities in concepts are obvious , and yes , it is an example of Crowley 'lifting' something from somewhere else ... but I think we are talking here about value of a system ... not specifically the originality of a system ?

I fail to see how someone NOT being aware of their incarnation's purpose, reason and learning for being here can help ???

Spoiler: Khvarenah

Khvarenah​

• [Also spelt khvareno, khvarana or khwarnag (the 'khv/khw' are at times denoted by 'hu'). Middle Persian Pahlavi: khwar, khwarr, or khwarrah. New Persian: Khorra(h). Related Old Persian: farnah. New Persian: farr.]
• The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the
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  and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.
• The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].
• Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life]. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
• A
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  - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
• An
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  - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
• A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose
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  , the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
• The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.
• There is a strong implication in Zamyad Yasht (Yt 19.46-57) that the khvarenah that does not belong to a person cannot be seized by another person. The implication is that we should be content with our khvarenah and not be jealous or greedy of the other's khvarenah (here, good fortune).
• When all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain
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  &
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  - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth. (Also see the section on
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  , the Aryan homeland, as paradise.)
• Human beings often limit or loose themselves. In either case, they do not achieve their full potential or capacity.
• While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.
• To loose oneself is to loose one's khvarenah.
• In mythology, the khvarenah is like a bird that hovers over a person, and one that can fly away. If grace is replaced by evil ambitions, the bird is replaced by serpents growing out of that person's shoulders [see
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  , Yima Khshaeta (King Jamshid) in the Zamyad Yasht, and
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  ].
• The source of the khvarenah is said to be the divine spiritual light that is eternal and which casts no shadow (Denkard Madon 347.6-7).
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah is evidenced by a halo (farr in Persian), glowing brightly over her or his head - radiant as the sun (khvar/khor). (See portrait of Zarathushtra at the top of the page - a physical representation of something perceived by the spiritual eye and senses.) The opposite of the light of a halo is darkness - like a dark cloud hanging over someone.
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah cloaks that person with the aura of charisma and grace, the kind possessed by
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  and
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  .
• Khvarenah and the resulting charisma enable leadership that does not rely on authority.
• [For those interested in the etymology of the modern Persian names; Farr, Farah, Farahmand, Farrokh derive from the Old Persian farnah. Farr is translated as halo or nimbus - the aura of spiritual light, a light that casts no shadow, that surrounds a person filled with goodness and grace.]

Post automatically merged: Feb 1, 2026

ooops , I left out the source citation ;

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[Beyond Everything]

I will mention again about the True Will , it is not a 'religious doctrine' specific to Thelema or Crowley

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.

Especially his idea about Thelema replacing Christianity, as a religion free of dogma and moralistic boundaries.

It's hardly free of dogma. The true will is a piece of religious indoctrination along with the HGA. Being 'commanded' by some entity to write a fuzzy religious text is hardly self-rulership lol

Crowley wrote something called Duty which outlined obligations of the Thelemite, so that sounds like moralistic boundaries to me. He ended up in tortured contortions trying to explain this from Duty -'Abstain from all interferences with other wills.' elsewhere, even saying rape was sometimes ok lol

The amazing thing is people spend many years of their lives trying to decode and parse what Crowley said, meanwhile Crowley himself didn't have enough magic power to get his practical rituals working. lol

 

[Van Horne]

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.


It's hardly free of dogma. The true will is a piece of religious indoctrination along with the HGA. Being 'commanded' by some entity to write a fuzzy religious text is hardly self-rulership lol

Crowley wrote something called Duty which outlined obligations of the Thelemite, so that sounds like moralistic boundaries to me. He ended up in tortured contortions trying to explain this from Duty -'Abstain from all interferences with other wills.' elsewhere, even saying rape was sometimes ok lol

The amazing thing is people spend many years of their lives trying to decode and parse what Crowley said, meanwhile Crowley himself didn't have enough magic power to get his practical rituals working. lol

LOL LOL LOL is the Number of the BEAST!!!

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2026

All jokes aside, I think your criticism is justified.

Buttttttttttt.... there is a big distinction to be made between studying and following something.

If to study means to read, to understand, to evaluate, to criticize, to discuss, to extract valuable elements. In this case, yes it's worth studying.

To follow in the sense of following blindly, to take everything for granted, for true and never-failing, without questioning any aspect of it, ignoring other systems, then no, of course not! And never lend any money to Crowley, for he is a powerful magician who makes it disappear forever!

 

[Firetree]

So what? It's still a religious doctrine. This is the LHP forum, and pretending there is some divine matrix where one can fit in perfectly is contradictory to that on very deep levels.

Wow ....

'So what' is ; I was actually agreeing with one of your complaints that Crowley copied stuff from other sources .

I am not trying to 'pretend' anything about that .

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2026

LOL LOL LOL is the Number of the BEAST!!!

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2026

All jokes aside, I think your criticism is justified.

Buttttttttttt.... there is a big distinction to be made between studying and following something.

If to study means to read, to understand, to evaluate, to criticize, to discuss, to extract valuable elements. In this case, yes it's worth studying.

To follow in the sense of following blindly, to take everything for granted, for true and never-failing, without questioning any aspect of it, ignoring other systems, then no, of course not! And never lend any money to Crowley, for he is a powerful magician who makes it disappear forever!

Excellent point ! Even the Old Boy himself didnt like that ( the bolded ^ ) :

"I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions". He wanted others to "cut [their] own way through the jungle". - 'The Fetish of Fools' .

He mocked those who begged for his secrets and how to 'make gold' ( Book of Lies Ch 88 - 'Gold bricks' )

- I know this is coming off like I am a Crowley defender , but I could also list a heap of his personal faults and mistakes . I will speak up though when people post unsubstantiated criminal activity and gossip about him ... or anyone for that matter .

What I find strange is some people complain about him ; he did dark stuff , he took drugs , he was a sex fiend , he was a Satanist , he was gay ... etc etc . And some of those people settle down at night to a good dose of TV violence , rape, murder , horror ... for a ' good nights entertainment ' .

Rather hypocritical I think .

 

[Accipeveldare]

That isn't what I meant. I'm familiar with the drug from having known multiple users/addicts, so I don't need to derive 'knowledge' from chat gpt

I've known people who quit cold turkey and never touched it again, after consistent use over a substantial period. Crowley for all his talk of will was simply unable to do so. He claimed in his Drug Fiend novel that a follower of Thelema would be able to use Heroin and other substances 'at will', which was a stupid thing to claim.

Seeing what I have of Thelemites, I'm not too impressed with their utilization of will. CS Hyatt (Alan Miller) was correct to call the OTO a trailer trash organization, and that was after financially helping them for years lol

The more general point was the more rigorous and precise usage of forbidden (to Hindus) practices in Tantra is only vaguely related to the anal sexcapades and copious drug taking of Thelema. Come to think of it, I really don't see the amazing results in the higher degree OTO sex practices that are held out like a dubious carrot to gullible Thelemite aspirants (since so few achieve those degrees anyway)

I must stop you here. Speaking on degrees of Thelema. Actually, degrees of any practice. The reason most people do not reach higher degrees in any practice is because they are not fully up to it. I believe Thelemites have a term for this. "Black Brothers" is what i believe it is. You will find that the majority of people who claim to be occultists or whatever you call it actually are too afraid to keep progressing after a certain point.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I must stop you here. Speaking on degrees of Thelema. Actually, degrees of any practice. The reason most people do not reach higher degrees in any practice is because they are not fully up to it.

That isn't the case. Plenty of interpersonal politics in the OTO's dispensing of degrees. But really, who cares, they aren't holding some fantastic secrets.

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[Firetree]

I must stop you here. Speaking on degrees of Thelema. Actually, degrees of any practice. The reason most people do not reach higher degrees in any practice is because they are not fully up to it. I believe Thelemites have a term for this. "Black Brothers" is what i believe it is. You will find that the majority of people who claim to be occultists or whatever you call it actually are too afraid to keep progressing after a certain point.

That could be true , but it is much more complex than that in the OTO . I won't go on about it here , but just an outline of variant reasons many would not want to go on to higher degrees in OTO ... even though they found value in it teaching's , as an initiatory order's expression of Thelema ,

Look at the Degree structure ; the first triad is Man of Earth and consist of degrees many might find sufficient for themselves . If they were able to go on to the next Triad that starts with the 5th degree ... it clearly states this is the 'end point' for the majority . It then goes on to explain the difficulties, dedications required and involved in the politics and running of the order in the higher degrees .

Urrrrghhh .... no thanks ! I hate politics, admin , bureaucracy

Especially when it also states the 'highest ' 9th degree isnt actually 'awarded' , it is 'recognized' if you already figured out what it is . People in the lower number degrees have figured out what it is . It actually states that people that do might not be in the order, might be of the youngest and 'unseen that walk amongst you ' .


They cant really be back brothers as higher degrees are by invitation , you cant make everyone a black brother who you didnt invite .

Anyway , Thelema can be worth studying , in the OTO and staying in 'lower' degrees - but OTO is just one expression of Thelema .

 

[sahgwa]

I can't speak to the OTO as I am not in it, but I have nothing but praise for A.:.A.:. It has helped me immensely to become more energetic, disciplined, and powerful in both mundane and spiritual spheres. The intense work is self work, astral scrying, ritual, meditation, asana, etc. So you get out of it what you put in. There is no real 'forcing' , from anyone else, and you evolve at your own pace. I have seen past lives, and projected out of the body etherically and astrally, as well as gained more patience, compassion and understanding of human nature.
Everyone I have had the pleasure to meet connected with A.:.A.:. has also displayed a high degree of competency in spiritual and mundane spheres.
We take care of Malkuth, and move upward from there.
Experimenting with other sources outside of Thelema is not frowned upon, and as long as you keep good records and notes, the world is your oyster.

ΚΕΦΑΛΗ Γ​

THE OYSTER
The Brothers of A∴A∴ are one with the Mother of the Child.
The Many is as adorable to the One as the One is to the Many. This is the Love of These; creation-parturition is the Bliss of the One; coition-dissolution is the Bliss of the Many.
The All, thus interwoven of These, is Bliss.
Naught is beyond Bliss.
The Man delights in uniting with the Woman; the Woman in parting from the Child.
The Brothers of A∴A∴ are Women: the Aspirants to A∴A∴ are Men.

 

[Beyond Everything]

and projected out of the body etherically and astrally, as

Ok, I mean that's great, but plenty of people go out of body, with and without organizational ties. They teach that in otherwise lame orgs such as Eckanar, the fake Rosicrucian groups, etc. There's a variety of books now that give competent guidance in achieving it. He just lifted those instructions from the Golden Dawn anyway.

Again, this was asked in the left hand path forum, so let's think of it through that prism- and if we examine the AA's top two grades we see a lot of nonsense

The grade of Magus Crowley says less than a dozen people have ever achieved. It started this whole stupid thing about 'words of the aeon', and really it's just a way for him to retrofit past religious cult leaders (otherwise known as prophets) into his schema. Of course, Crowley is said by himself to be a Magus but unlike previous religious figures, Thelema hasn't stormed the world with millions and billions of followers. Between the Thelemic organizations worldwide you're talking maybe 12,000 tops. So buying into his beliefs means accepting Crowley's vanity project.

Now let's think about the AA highest grade Crowley discusses, the Ipsissimus, which again he claimed for himself. If the grade of Magus has less than a dozen, then logically the next higher grade has had even fewer lol. In actual, real esoteric traditions, it is known that the highest accomplishment is the transmutation into an immortal higher subtle body. Crowley doesn't discuss this at all, he is completely oblivious to it. Instead you get such 'gems' as The Ipsissimus has no relation as such with any Being: He has no will in any direction, and no Consciousness of any kind involving duality, for in Him all is accomplished; as it is written 'beyond the Word and the Fool, yea, beyond the Word and the Fool. Bear in mind, he claimed this while being hopelessly addicted to Heroin.

 

[Firetree]

It seems you are compelled to , not just give your own opinions in the negative , but need to react to every persons positive experience in Thelemic groups they belonged to and learnt good stuff in (ie they had actual membership experience ) and search to find unrelated 'holes' in the overall patterns or faults in individuals as an attempt to nullify their post and experience .

You have gone way beyond just expressing your view here ... you are a man on a mission !

< shrug > whatever ..... maybe that is your 'True Will' ?

 

[Beyond Everything]

It seems you are compelled to , not just give your own opinions in the negative , but need to react to every persons positive experience in Thelemic groups they belonged to and learnt good stuff in (ie they had actual membership experience ) and search to find unrelated 'holes' in the overall patterns or faults in individuals as an attempt to nullify their post and experience .

Since the topic is whether Thelema is worth studying, it is pertinent to point out one can achieve out of body states without belonging to an
organizational structure designed by someone (Crowley) trying to indoctrinate you into their personal religion. As well, deconstructing the top 2 AA grades as I've done is useful and on-topic to someone asking about Thelema in a left hand path forum.

 

[sahgwa]

Since the topic is whether Thelema is worth studying, it is pertinent to point out one can achieve out of body states without belonging to an
organizational structure designed by someone (Crowley) trying to indoctrinate you into their personal religion. As well, deconstructing the top 2 AA grades as I've done is useful and on-topic to someone asking about Thelema in a left hand path forum.

I was waiting to jump in here but it keeps rolling along.
I just want to say that I 'enjoy' how you picked OOBE out of my post as if it was the only thing worthwhile.

Discipline, energetic evolution ,frequency raising, second and third body coherence, progress towards kundalini awakening, and also the achieving of practical magickal results are all a part of my personal A.:.A.:. journey, as mentioned in things like 'asana/meditation/ritual' and fostering of states like compassion, (what I call now 'stern compassion' ), for what it's worth.....

The top 2 A.:.A.:. grades I can't speak to, as I am below the Abyss. I just know that I can feel and experience my 'home sephiroth' changing through the years of my Work. My 'secondary self/higher self /daimon/ HGA' is nearer and nearer the more I work.

You are of course free to deconstruct them and state why you feel they are worthless, as well as fixate continuously on AC's personal drug use as much as you see fit though.

 

[Beyond Everything]

as well as fixate continuously on AC's personal drug use as much as you see fit though.

Why keep pointing it out?

The very highest degree of the AA says this

The Ipsissimus is pre-eminently the Master of all modes of existence; that is, his being is entirely free from internal or external necessity.

Being a heroin addict kind of shows the whole thing is a farce. He made up grades with very specific qualities, and claimed to have achieved them.

As I've pointed out, there is absolutely nothing in the AA that one can't accomplish outside of it, and more effectively. One advantage is one isn't programming their subconscious with Crowley's bullshit. But of course this requires individual initiative and self-reliance.

 

[sahgwa]

All I will say (for the third or fourth time maybe) is that the teachings work, who cares about guru worship? I can speak from experience for the 'normal' grades below the Abyss but any more than that , living god ipsissimus stuff , no idea.

I would reckon if you were honest with yourself, you don't know either but you love being antagonistic for some reason.