Transgender & Chaos Magick

[Morell]

Who the heck hasn't had trauma?

Damn, well played! You're right. Practicaly every person on the planet had some trauma, small or not. Didn't think of it that way.

Though I still think that there is a connection. Maybe it is specific form of trauma... or maybe not just that. More variables might be at play.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Damn, well played! You're right. Practicaly every person on the planet had some trauma, small or not. Didn't think of it that way.

Though I still think that there is a connection. Maybe it is specific form of trauma... or maybe not just that. More variables might be at play.

I agree. It is still definitely linked to trauma

 

[voidcat]

Damn, well played! You're right. Practicaly every person on the planet had some trauma, small or not. Didn't think of it that way.

Though I still think that there is a connection. Maybe it is specific form of trauma... or maybe not just that. More variables might be at play.

I agree. It is still definitely linked to trauma

My therapist doesnt think thats the case with me. Because ive had sexual trauma we explored the possibility of it being body dymorphia related to that rather than due to being trans. She concluded that wasn't the case because im not running from my body, in fact i like my body even if i wanted to at the time modify it. Im seeking gender euphoria. I dont see my identity as a curse but a spiritual gift. In my case she thinks this is just a natural way of being for me.

I would like to add gender identity seems to have a biological bias not just social. There was a case of a guy named David Reimer who had a botch circumcision. Because he was a twin and there was a theory gender identity was solely social, a doctor decided to change his genitals to a vagina, and give him hormones as a teen. They decided to force him into a girl. This was to prove a theory John Money had. David became suicidal and said he always felt he was a male. He stopped hormones and had penile reconstruction as an adult. Ultimately however because of John Money and the abuse David killed himself and died young.

There have been many studies that suggest gender identity is extremely complex. For some it seems to have hormonal basis. For some it may be related to how they were formed in the womb(one theory is that if a female fetus is exposed to too much male hormones in the womb that the brain masculinizes and the body stays female. An intersex condition of the brain.). Some suggest autistic folk may be more likely to be trans because of a difference in how they precise social concepts. Ive never seen any reputable sources claim its solely caused by trauma or even linked to it. There are cases of people who due to sexual abuse disconnect from their body and have body dysmorphia as a result but a good doctor/therapist would screen you for that being a possibility before prescribing any permanent modifications. They may allow social transition however if the person wants to explore their gender identity while working on the trauma.

A final thing to consider is mental illness isnt oh this is abnormal. It has to impact you negatively to the degree of being clinically significant. Many transfolk feel their gender identity itself doesnt impact them negatively its just who they are. Its gender dysphoria that impacts them negatively. Once they transition they are much much happier. This doesnt have to even be medically it could be socially. I think if people knew more about gender euphoria rather than focused on gender dysphoria less people would medically transition a lot would only socially and maybe legally do so. This is because gender euphoria tells you who you are, gender dysphoria tells you who you arent. By affirming who you are as a person, the dysphoria lessens

Im of the opinion that people are too complex to attribute gender identity and why folk are trans to one thing. For some it may be environmental causes, some purely genetics, and other both. Maybe theres even spiritual causes.

 

[Ziran]

.... just curious on other peoples outlooks on feminine and masculine energies in one vessel.

Feminine and masculine energies? In one vessel?

... there's a midrash on it.

Spoiler: Google Search: midrash where adam is intersex?

 

[Ananda]

Your body has a gender. You personality is just your personality. Your personality is what clothes you like, hobbies, foods, etc. Personality does not have gender. Your soul cannot have gender preferences as it is inherently genderless. As well as "karma" simply is not a thing. There is only universal cause and effect, not karma that follows you around to haunt you.

Thanks for demonstrating that you don't have a clue about whatever you opine on. That's pretty much all social media.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:49 PM

Also, it has been the subject of studies and has actually been found that wanting to be the opposite gender actually tends to be rooted in trauma or mental illness.

You can find plenty of studies showing that homosexuality tends to be rooted in trauma and mental illness and that it can be cured. And that all manner of harmful technology we're forced to use today is safe.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Thanks for demonstrating that you don't have a clue about whatever you opine on. That's pretty much all social media.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:49 PM

You can find plenty of studies showing that homosexuality tends to be rooted in trauma and mental illness and that it can be cured. And that all manner of harmful technology we're forced to use today is safe.

Actually, i do not have social media, so my thoughts on the matter are not stemmed on it. Thank you for the speculation, but those were genuinely my individual thoughts on the matter.

 

[Morell]

My therapist doesnt think thats the case with me. Because ive had sexual trauma we explored the possibility of it being body dymorphia related to that rather than due to being trans. She concluded that wasn't the case because im not running from my body, in fact i like my body even if i wanted to at the time modify it. Im seeking gender euphoria. I dont see my identity as a curse but a spiritual gift. In my case she thinks this is just a natural way of being for me.

I would like to add gender identity seems to have a biological bias not just social. There was a case of a guy named David Reimer who had a botch circumcision. Because he was a twin and there was a theory gender identity was solely social, a doctor decided to change his genitals to a vagina, and give him hormones as a teen. They decided to force him into a girl. This was to prove a theory John Money had. David became suicidal and said he always felt he was a male. He stopped hormones and had penile reconstruction as an adult. Ultimately however because of John Money and the abuse David killed himself and died young.

There have been many studies that suggest gender identity is extremely complex. For some it seems to have hormonal basis. For some it may be related to how they were formed in the womb(one theory is that if a female fetus is exposed to too much male hormones in the womb that the brain masculinizes and the body stays female. An intersex condition of the brain.). Some suggest autistic folk may be more likely to be trans because of a difference in how they precise social concepts. Ive never seen any reputable sources claim its solely caused by trauma or even linked to it. There are cases of people who due to sexual abuse disconnect from their body and have body dysmorphia as a result but a good doctor/therapist would screen you for that being a possibility before prescribing any permanent modifications. They may allow social transition however if the person wants to explore their gender identity while working on the trauma.

A final thing to consider is mental illness isnt oh this is abnormal. It has to impact you negatively to the degree of being clinically significant. Many transfolk feel their gender identity itself doesnt impact them negatively its just who they are. Its gender dysphoria that impacts them negatively. Once they transition they are much much happier. This doesnt have to even be medically it could be socially. I think if people knew more about gender euphoria rather than focused on gender dysphoria less people would medically transition a lot would only socially and maybe legally do so. This is because gender euphoria tells you who you are, gender dysphoria tells you who you arent. By affirming who you are as a person, the dysphoria lessens

Im of the opinion that people are too complex to attribute gender identity and why folk are trans to one thing. For some it may be environmental causes, some purely genetics, and other both. Maybe theres even spiritual causes.

Thanks for your story. I appreciate the share. Some interesting points there.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 5:30 PM

Feminine and masculine energies? In one vessel?

... there's a midrash on it.

Spoiler: Google Search: midrash where adam is intersex?

Yuck, AI.
Anyway, I've heard of that one too. It's interesting concept that can quite change the angle of that part of Genesis story.

 

[Accipeveldare]

My therapist doesnt think thats the case with me. Because ive had sexual trauma we explored the possibility of it being body dymorphia related to that rather than due to being trans. She concluded that wasn't the case because im not running from my body, in fact i like my body even if i wanted to at the time modify it. Im seeking gender euphoria. I dont see my identity as a curse but a spiritual gift. In my case she thinks this is just a natural way of being for me.

I would like to add gender identity seems to have a biological bias not just social. There was a case of a guy named David Reimer who had a botch circumcision. Because he was a twin and there was a theory gender identity was solely social, a doctor decided to change his genitals to a vagina, and give him hormones as a teen. They decided to force him into a girl. This was to prove a theory John Money had. David became suicidal and said he always felt he was a male. He stopped hormones and had penile reconstruction as an adult. Ultimately however because of John Money and the abuse David killed himself and died young.

There have been many studies that suggest gender identity is extremely complex. For some it seems to have hormonal basis. For some it may be related to how they were formed in the womb(one theory is that if a female fetus is exposed to too much male hormones in the womb that the brain masculinizes and the body stays female. An intersex condition of the brain.). Some suggest autistic folk may be more likely to be trans because of a difference in how they precise social concepts. Ive never seen any reputable sources claim its solely caused by trauma or even linked to it. There are cases of people who due to sexual abuse disconnect from their body and have body dysmorphia as a result but a good doctor/therapist would screen you for that being a possibility before prescribing any permanent modifications. They may allow social transition however if the person wants to explore their gender identity while working on the trauma.

A final thing to consider is mental illness isnt oh this is abnormal. It has to impact you negatively to the degree of being clinically significant. Many transfolk feel their gender identity itself doesnt impact them negatively its just who they are. Its gender dysphoria that impacts them negatively. Once they transition they are much much happier. This doesnt have to even be medically it could be socially. I think if people knew more about gender euphoria rather than focused on gender dysphoria less people would medically transition a lot would only socially and maybe legally do so. This is because gender euphoria tells you who you are, gender dysphoria tells you who you arent. By affirming who you are as a person, the dysphoria lessens

Im of the opinion that people are too complex to attribute gender identity and why folk are trans to one thing. For some it may be environmental causes, some purely genetics, and other both. Maybe theres even spiritual causes.

I never saw it from this perspective. Thank you for illuminating my failure to understand properly. I understand now. I must admit, after seeing this from your perspective, i find you to be correct in this matter. Please, continue to drop truth bombs. We need more of them!

 

[voidcat]

Thanks for your story. I appreciate the share. Some interesting points there

I never saw it from this perspective. Thank you for illuminating my failure to understand properly. I understand now. I must admit, after seeing this from your perspective, i find you to be correct in this matter. Please, continue to drop truth bombs. We need more of them!

I appreciate both of yall being willing to listen. I debate saying something because historically when I talk on transgender issues people are stuck on their opinions and not willing to learn new info or consider other perspectives. However ive spoken a bit with you,@Morell , and you tend to be reasonable enough to consider other perspectives on various topics. So I figured id address both of yall and try my luck.

 

[Accipeveldare]

I appreciate both of yall being willing to listen. I debate saying something because historically when I talk on transgender issues people are stuck on their opinions and not willing to learn new info or consider other perspectives. However ive spoken a bit with you,@Morell , and you tend to be reasonable enough to consider other perspectives on various topics. So I figured id address both of yall and try my luck.

It should be one of an occultists best interests to consider other views might be true. How would we grow spiritually if our ego wont even allow us to think clearly?

 

[pruner_tipster]

I did not expect Biological determinism to show up in an occult forum. Robert Sapolsky notes that the brains of transgender individuals matches their preferred/identified gender not their genitals. Gender≠sex

 

[Ananda]

Actually, i do not have social media, so my thoughts on the matter are not stemmed on it. Thank you for the speculation, but those were genuinely my individual thoughts on the matter.

Sorry about being rude before. It just irks me when people dismiss the concept of karma online for all to read. I'm sure there'll be karmic effects for this.

According to the Vedic religion and Buddhism, the level of progress of an individual toward liberation determines the speed and intensity of how karma manifests. I don't really want to discuss this further.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

This, and I want to add, you don't have to be transgender or genderqueer in any way to actually harness feminine or masculine energies within you to do the work you need to do.

Ive personally found that proper integration of the feminine exacerbates masculinity and vice versa. That masculinity because sharpened and liberated when the male works with and heals their feminine aspect.

 

[FireBorn]

I wonder how comfortable some of the tradcon practitioners here would be if they looked up the gala priests in Sumer, the gender fluid clergy who served Inanna in Uruk. Or if they learned that temple prostitution wasn’t scandalous, but sacred, with even married women participating as a form of devotion. Homosexuality? Entirely normal. Fluidity? Embedded in the ritual structure of that time. This isn’t some modern deviation, it’s ancient..

It’s always funny to watch occultists speak of spirits “subjective, ineffable, beyond judgment” but then scramble to modern science the moment gender comes up, like it’s somehow exempt from the messy mystery of life. Newsflash: humanity has always been messy. Spirit work should have taught us that by now.

Magick is about expanding perception. About crossing boundaries. About burning through illusion. So why is someone else's gender the hill you choose to defend your comfort on?

If your magick didn't open your mind, what exactly did it do?

Just my .02

 

[Morell]

I wonder how comfortable some of the tradcon practitioners here would be if they looked up the gala priests in Sumer, the gender fluid clergy who served Inanna in Uruk. Or if they learned that temple prostitution wasn’t scandalous, but sacred, with even married women participating as a form of devotion. Homosexuality? Entirely normal. Fluidity? Embedded in the ritual structure of that time. This isn’t some modern deviation, it’s ancient..

It’s always funny to watch occultists speak of spirits “subjective, ineffable, beyond judgment” but then scramble to modern science the moment gender comes up, like it’s somehow exempt from the messy mystery of life. Newsflash: humanity has always been messy. Spirit work should have taught us that by now.

Magick is about expanding perception. About crossing boundaries. About burning through illusion. So why is someone else's gender the hill you choose to defend your comfort on?

If your magick didn't open your mind, what exactly did it do?

Just my .02

Cannot cross boundary, if you don't see yourself having one.

Excelent note on ancient temple rituals. Though I don't think that it was usualy cool experience, especialy for women.

 

[FireBorn]

Cannot cross boundary, if you don't see yourself having one.

Excelent note on ancient temple rituals. Though I don't think that it was usualy cool experience, especialy for women.

I can understand that kneejerk reaction, it was mine too. I did quite a bit of research into Inanna and Uruk (my favorite time period) and they just had a completely different view of the world and sex than we do. So when a married woman was taking part in temple prostitution, it wasnt viewed in a negative light at all, it was honorable.

Also, sex wasn't appearance based as much as it is today. Strange af to you and me, but again, they had a different world view. Also, women weren't second class in Sumar at all. Prostitutes weren't viewed in a dim light like today. I would dare say that view is Abrahamic in conception.

 

[BitterToSweet]

In my opinion not being attached to specific gender ideal is a good thing from a magickal/occult perspective because you have more opportunities to work with a variety of archetypes. When you are attached to only one, your opportunities are cut by half

Also, even if your body is from a specific gender, the neuroplasticity shows that your brain can lean towards any "gender", there's a large overlap across sexes and a wide variation within each sex, and no single rigid definition of “male brain” or “female brain.” Patterns sometimes differ on averages, but they are influenced by things such as environment, culture, hormones and experience. Letting your gender dictate your idendity and interests sounds very foolish to me.

And of course you can take hormones and change your body too, if thats want you want. But of course is not for everyone, only for those who suffer from dysphoria.

From a personal experience, since i was a kid, gender roles never made sense to me, not even a single bit. And im not even transgender or anything like that.

 

[Kepler]

That many people imagine switching genders shows an ease with engaging the idea of transgenderism. Yet, they show no common distress over their current physical gender, but there is distress over imposition to specific gender roles.

A naturally developed, secular education with self-guided contemplation leading to inner understanding that the soul of the observer is ungendered has contributed to this awareness. It's also a necessary realization for working effectively with many forms of magick, including those someone might pursue along chaos.

Places where this sort of secular self-discovery is suppressed and replaced with a theocratic dogma of demons whispering evil thoughts of transgender dysphoria into minds results in contentious conclusions and more suppression. Also more work for an individual raised with this worldview to reconcile to move forward in chaos magick.

 

[Aldebaran]

I have trauma but thats not why I am transgender.

You seem comfortable with who you are, so let me ask sincerely: WHY are you transgender? Like seriously? Do you feel trapped in the wrong body energetically? Do you feel masculine/feminine traits and need to express both? You like everything sexually? Are you on any mental medication (none of my business but curious without judgement)

Im not attacking you. Ive never talked to a trans and, i have pretty normal opinions, such as there are only two sexes. I also have a lot of curiosity.

Here is my take; if you want to be trans. Then be trans. But be honest, because prior to the 2000's if you were a trans person. You paid a harsh price for it socially and yet they stuck with it because that is who they are and they had no choice. I respect the shit out of that! They said fuck everyone else. This is who and what I am. I have no choice.

Now it just seems like a trend. There is no bravery or moral fortitude involved. Only righteous indignation that everyone has to accept your role of who you think you are. Straight people don't even get that privilege. You have to prove who and what you are. You have to embody it. And you sure as hell can't force others to accept your self-image.

Final take, and I look forward to your commentary. When you are trans you are shirking your responsibilities in life. You are hiding from your responsibilities of being a Man (and there are A LOT) nor are you capable of bringing to the table the special energetic qualities that make a Woman special and what they are and why feminine energy is so amazing. No matter how feminine you are, you are incapable of bringing the essential female essence. And it is special! If you're the other direction, no difference. Now you arent a man, you cant be a woman. It's seems as if you want to play peter pan and never embody the responsibilites of life.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm trying to open discussion. People who jump to defensiveness because an opinion is different or opposing their own. Well, thats pretty pathetic.

 

[Accipeveldare]

You seem comfortable with who you are, so let me ask sincerely: WHY are you transgender? Like seriously? Do you feel trapped in the wrong body energetically? Do you feel masculine/feminine traits and need to express both? You like everything sexually? Are you on any mental medication (none of my business but curious without judgement)

Im not attacking you. Ive never talked to a trans and, i have pretty normal opinions, such as there are only two sexes. I also have a lot of curiosity.

Here is my take; if you want to be trans. Then be trans. But be honest, because prior to the 2000's if you were a trans person. You paid a harsh price for it socially and yet they stuck with it because that is who they are and they had no choice. I respect the shit out of that! They said fuck everyone else. This is who and what I am. I have no choice.

Now it just seems like a trend. There is no bravery or moral fortitude involved. Only righteous indignation that everyone has to accept your role of who you think you are. Straight people don't even get that privilege. You have to prove who and what you are. You have to embody it. And you sure as hell can't force others to accept your self-image.

Final take, and I look forward to your commentary. When you are trans you are shirking your responsibilities in life. You are hiding from your responsibilities of being a Man (and there are A LOT) nor are you capable of bringing to the table the special energetic qualities that make a Woman special and what they are and why feminine energy is so amazing. No matter how feminine you are, you are incapable of bringing the essential female essence. And it is special! If you're the other direction, no difference. Now you arent a man, you cant be a woman. It's seems as if you want to play peter pan and never embody the responsibilites of life.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm trying to open discussion. People who jump to defensiveness because an opinion is different or opposing their own. Well, thats pretty pathetic.

I love the honesty that was expressed here. I am curious to see what they have to say